Ranger Archive
Thread: Rangers defensively
Page 1 of 1
Kiryoku
Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:40 am
#1
you can skip on down the yellow, most of this is rambling...
i've been lurking here for about 8 months, and now i'm finally gonna give posting a go...
ranger is my most preferred profession available in this game... that being said, as it is now the profession is useless... the reason the posters in this forum are so well behaved and so knowledgeable about the ranger profession is because most of them are spending 140 skill points for a title... this means they genuinely like being a ranger, even if all they get out of it is being called "ranger"...
i was a ranger once, back in the beginning when there were only 5 or so on wanderhome (a ranger-friendly sounding server, no?)... when skill points got tight, i did all i could to hang on to ranger until we got our update: /areatrack and /conceal!... after a month with my new abilities, i dropped ranger and survival/trapping from scout...
i want desperately to be a ranger again, so i come by here everyday with nothing but hope for the future... why am i not one now?... my girlfriend is a chef/BE; it makes sense that a ranger could help her more than any other profession... wrong... i've found that i can be more helpful to her as a scout (hunting) and a smuggler.. as a chef/BE she needs vast creature resources; ranger doesn't help me much there... as a BE she needs DNA and creature info; all the information she needs is on the DNA itself but it is handy to know the resists of a creature first to save time, hunting 2 of scout grants you this ability... as for gathering DNA, i am far more helpful against difficult creatures with the smuggler ability /feigndeath than i am with any skill from the ranger tree...
boring personal stuff aside, i'll get to the point...
elite professions often require skills from a basic profession that become obsolete as you master the elite... a commando will not use his /takecover ability from the marksman tree because it has no value for him, but he still has to spend skillpoints for that ability... with ranger, i feel like we are buying a couple of virtually useless scout branches just to have access to our ranger abilities (survival had no real value before as all camps were virtually equivalent, now it really has no use - ever see a 0/0/0/3 scout just because he "really liked the multiperson camp?"... trapping is only used by people whohad to spend points in it, traps don't work well enough for anyone to desire spending points for them)... which is fine, as long as ranger is worth it..
making ranger worth it...
each branch in an elite profession serves some specific purpose that is almost entirely contained within that section... each branch should be worth achieving for its own bonuses,or bonuses at mastery should be worth spending points in branches that aren't as useful... right now, almost every bonus from the different ranger branches are not worth spending the skill points on, and the bonus at master is not enough to compensate... we need for each tree to be desirable for what it provides, and we need for the mastery bonuses to provide enough incentive to go up in branches we don't necessarily use..
wayfaring:
we've had lots of discussion on this tree, so i won't go into much detail... Fred_Skinner's post on STEALTH as well as the Outdoorsman proposal go into detail on how /conceal could be made better... WolfwoodCross has a nice post about radar range being affected by scouting ability.. and a few folks have mentioned increased walking/running speed (not TN, but a movement bonus).. all of these ideas would make for a better wayfaring branch, but as stealth is a powerful ability perhaps it should be tied in with all branches, the counter to stealth being in field bioscience..
we've had lots of discussion on this tree, so i won't go into much detail... Fred_Skinner's post on STEALTH as well as the Outdoorsman proposal go into detail on how /conceal could be made better... WolfwoodCross has a nice post about radar range being affected by scouting ability.. and a few folks have mentioned increased walking/running speed (not TN, but a movement bonus).. all of these ideas would make for a better wayfaring branch, but as stealth is a powerful ability perhaps it should be tied in with all branches, the counter to stealth being in field bioscience..
frontiering:
what can we say, we love our camps?... even as simple decorations these are great, but if only they were useful... again, the modular camp idea described in the Outdoorsman proposal would make this branch worthwhile.. as long as camps are provided some function, i think most of us would be happy..
what can we say, we love our camps?... even as simple decorations these are great, but if only they were useful... again, the modular camp idea described in the Outdoorsman proposal would make this branch worthwhile.. as long as camps are provided some function, i think most of us would be happy..
field bioscience:
we talk a lot about needing more of a harvest bonus, and our broken /areatrack and nonexistent /track commands... this is where the awareness bonus to counteract stealth should be developed, if it is ever implemented (anybody notice that there is an awareness score already in the game?... maybe someday we can use those skill tapes).. some people have mentioned bonuses to offense or defense based on our creature knowledge, but i think those should go somewhere else as i'll explain ... ... now..
we talk a lot about needing more of a harvest bonus, and our broken /areatrack and nonexistent /track commands... this is where the awareness bonus to counteract stealth should be developed, if it is ever implemented (anybody notice that there is an awareness score already in the game?... maybe someday we can use those skill tapes).. some people have mentioned bonuses to offense or defense based on our creature knowledge, but i think those should go somewhere else as i'll explain ... ... now..
advanced trapping:
personally, i don't think there is anything that can save this branch... i think we should throw it out entirely and replace it with something that encompasses quite a few of our extraneous ideas...perhaps naming it "natural immersion"
personally, i don't think there is anything that can save this branch... i think we should throw it out entirely and replace it with something that encompasses quite a few of our extraneous ideas...perhaps naming it "natural immersion"
natural immersion (the new 4th branch):
this could be where we incorporate a defense system based on our knowledge of creatures, a natural defense system (immune responses), as well as certain group related bonuses...
this could be where we incorporate a defense system based on our knowledge of creatures, a natural defense system (immune responses), as well as certain group related bonuses...
defensive bonuses: rangers have a deep understanding of creature behavior, they can even tell what special attacks a creature will perform in battle; it only makes since that a ranger would be prepared to face such attacks... we could have certain defense bonuses to status effects equivalent to some fraction of our creature knowledge (CK) score... defenses vs. states would be earned as you climb the tree (N.I. 1: Def vs Stun CK/2, N.I. 2: Def vs Dizzy CK/2, N.I. 3: Def vs Knockdown CK/2, et c).. afterall, knowing is half the battle...
resistances: when people are affected by nature repeatedly (stung by a bee, bitten by a snake, et c), they either develop an allergy or an immunity... people who are out in nature will be affected quite a bit, and will either develop some resistance or quit going outside... rangers interact enough with nature that they should have natural resistances to poison, disease and possibly bleeds tiered over the development of this branch...
bringing it to the group: rangers could be useful in groups due to two new developments in this branch: snake-bite kits and a redesigned /rescue (sorry, i love this one)...
snake-bite kits: rangers should be able to create special packs that can be applied to players that increase poison/disease resistances for a time... we don't want to take the ability to cure these from doctors, but maybe we could prevent someone from contracting a disease in the first place...
/rescue: make /rescue distract the attacker in a way that could potentially end combat (PvE only)... ever hear of playing opossum?... maybe we could do something similar to /feigndeath after /rescue - when you /rescue you gather the MOB's attention, throw a speciallycrafted object(flare-like trap?), and play dead... it would work like /feigndeath as combat would start again when you stand up, but it would require a crafted item... think: jurassic park, when alan grant /rescued the kids by waving a flare at the t-rex, throwing it, and then standing extremely still, ending combat temporarily...
when i was looking at all of the combat professions in this game, i noticed that most professions try to balance offense and defense but that some tend to drop defense for a stronger offense (commando, BH)... still, there is no solely defensive profession... i think it would be great of ranger took that role...
for this, stealth would have to remain a defensive gesture... as long as stealth had no true offensive capability (sneak attacks, invisible assault), we could have all of the defensive bonuses as well as a "disappearing trick"... hiding is a defense... also, by removing the offensive edge of stealth we lessen the importance of the client knowledge of our location... people would break their EULA and use 3rd party programs not to see us before we can shoot them, but merely to ruin our ghosting...
by spreading these bonuses out over all four branches they all become useful in their own right, without putting too much in one... a BH could pick up some much needed defenses from the ranger tree, or stealth, or tracking, but not all of them... other combat professions would have a hard time coming here just for the defensive bonuses, as it would require so many skill points spent in unused branches, but it would definitely be enticing to them... we'd also have a place in PvP,withthe ability to place modular camps, perform recon, track/locate spies, and buff poison resists...
sorry to go on so long... kind of surrounded my thoughts with a bunch of stuff most of you already knew... i need to sleep more...
Ehope
Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:14 am
#2
Well done. I am still "On the ledge" I adore Ranger but....kinda worried about the future. I really want to do the Jedi quests. Not much faith that I can handle them. 
FallingByTheWayside
Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:30 pm
#3
I like the ideas...combat capable without being "l337"....
Then again I've always been a big proponent of Ranger defense mods 
One other idea proposed in the defense mod discussion was Creature Damage Mitigation...this I would LOVE to see implemented
Kiryoku
Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:50 pm
#4
i really like the creature damage mitigation idea... but if it were used it would have to be different than "mitigation" as we know it now, which only decreases the maximum damage by a certain percentage... as it is now, it wouldn't be great with animals because most critters don't have much range in their min and max damage (BE pets especially)
as for why i like the idea of a defensive ranger:
we take nothing from other offensive professions
we do not limit ranger to a certain weapon type (melee, ranged, rifles, unnarmed, etc)
we will survive in the wild, rather than destroy the wild
also, it has been said that rangers and smugglers are the "rogues" here, both should have some sort of stealth... the difference is, i see rangers as having "hiding ability" and smugglers as having "sneaking ability"... we should have a lot in common with smugglers, but we should each affect different things... hiding means "not being seen", sneaking means "getting by any way possible"... if we get the ability to disappear, this could be handy for the smuggler as they would get the same ability in the space expansion...
mm, and /rescue... i meant to say that /rescue should only work on creatures... throw a flare for a stormtrooper to fetch, and he'll just shoot you... similarly, not sure if /feigndeath should work on a rancor (carnivore, right... won't he just start chowing down?)
AgonThalia
Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:07 am
#5
Some really nice ideas.
I like the "playing possum" bit, and the resists have been batted around a bit and have been well recieved as a whole.
The snake bit kit would (in my opinion) reduce the time for the poison to affect you, while a doctor would be able to heal you outright.
(is that accurate? or what you meant?)
The main problem that I see, is that I really use a lot of traps, I can go through a crate of scout traps in a good week of hunting. While I do not want to see the trapping line lost, I would like to see the traps we do have become modular, or more effective, or usable in PvP and NPC combat.
Thanks for the posting, and I hope to see more of your ideas..
I like the "playing possum" bit, and the resists have been batted around a bit and have been well recieved as a whole.
The snake bit kit would (in my opinion) reduce the time for the poison to affect you, while a doctor would be able to heal you outright.
(is that accurate? or what you meant?)
The main problem that I see, is that I really use a lot of traps, I can go through a crate of scout traps in a good week of hunting. While I do not want to see the trapping line lost, I would like to see the traps we do have become modular, or more effective, or usable in PvP and NPC combat.
Thanks for the posting, and I hope to see more of your ideas..
777erc
Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:31 am
#6
Well put.
Personaly i would prefer to see the camping tree scraped instead, i would much rather have modular traps then modular tents. The modular camp idea seems much more complex than the trap idea. That and any change to the camp tree would have to redo the concept of camping within the game. The trap idea just makes traps effective and easy to use. Considering thatmost additions to camps would only turn them into amobile city i would rather walk a little to a real city when needed and be able to make some nice traps.
777erc
Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:25 pm
#7
JuCat wrote:
Hasn't that already been done...
The ONLY use a camp has AT ALL is the 1 in 999,999,999,999,999,999 chance you have an entertainer in your group to heal mind wounds or re-apply a mind buff.
hmm maybe i should clarify. To make camps useful they would have to be changed so extensively that chances are they would no longer have anything to do with "camping". Im not saying that some of the proposed changes would not be useful just that there might be no reason to continue calling them camps. And by the way i still use camps to heal my wounds.
Kiryoku
Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:26 pm
#8
The snake bit kit would (in my opinion) reduce the time for the poison to affect you, while a doctor would be able to heal you outright.
(is that accurate? or what you meant?)
I like the "playing possum" bit, and the resists have been batted around a bit and have been well recieved as a whole.
(is that accurate? or what you meant?)
actually not a bad idea, and more in line with what a "snake-bite kit" really is... but not what i had in mind, i was thinking more along the lines of increasing resistance to disease (increasing the chance that they won't get the disease)... there are skill tapes with a +#disease resistance in existance, i just thought maybe we could make a buff tothis stat... snake-bite kits aren't a good example of this from the real world, but ifigured "flu shot" was a bit much... i still prefer to think of it as a ranger being prepared, and safeguarding his party from the scary critters that poison - maybe it needs a better name, but i definitely think it will need to be craftable since it affects other players...
The main problem that I see, is that I really use a lot of traps, I can go through a crate of scout traps in a good week of hunting. While I do not want to see the trapping line lost, I would like to see the traps we do have become modular, or more effective, or usable in PvP and NPC combat.
yeh, i really don't want traps to get thrown out either.. only, i see trapping as a scout ability and i wouldn't mind if they beefed it up for the scout (modular, usable on people, et c)... i just think that at the ranger level, we should have something other than "advanced trapping"... we could still get a +# to traps, i just think it fits more in "frontiering" than in its own branch...
I like the "playing possum" bit, and the resists have been batted around a bit and have been well recieved as a whole.
yeh, pretty much all of this has been talked about at one time or another, not really anything new... but the focus lately has been on giving rangers new weapons or special combat moves, and i think this is a step in the wrong direction... if we want to be more powerful offensively, we will never get something like stealth - and if we do, the world will be flooded with rangers (something it shouldn't be, rangers should be rare)...
i also think that we have as much offensive potential as any other elite combat profession (as we can obtain any one of them besides commando), the only difference is that they are allowed to dabble in other combat professions - picking up defenses... putting defenses so high up on the ranger tree pretty much eliminates nonrangers from taking them (it'd becheaper to go up in fencing if you just wanted to stack defenses - exception: BH)...
basically, i don't see "/neckshot1" being a ranger move, i see it as a rifle move... what i do see belonging to the rangers is a deep understanding of creature combat, allowing them to avoid creature attacks and specials, and being resilient enough to continue fighting when they do get hit...
Kiryoku
Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:35 pm
#9
sorry for the double post... mm..
To make camps useful they would have to be changed so extensively that chances are they would no longer have anything to do with "camping".
i really would like for camps to work as a rallying point when my group is out hunting, and this alone is enough for them to exist... right now, they sort of serve that function - albeit, just as well as any group standing around yelling "over here"... one quick way to improve them in this regard is to get rid of the combat-disband, something we talked about in the "camping top 5" thread...
oh... and i know its rather gimmicky, but i loved being able to register my map on the planetary map... the fact that functions like this exist make me think that camps were intended to be a rallying point... if only we had some need for something like that, or if it provided some bonus
JuCat
Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:57 am
#10
777erc wrote:
Well put.
Personaly i would prefer to see the camping tree scraped instead, i would much rather have modular traps then modular tents. The modular camp idea seems much more complex than the trap idea. That and any change to the camp tree would have to redo the concept of camping within the game. The trap idea just makes traps effective and easy to use. Considering thatmost additions to camps would only turn them into amobile city i would rather walk a little to a real city when needed and be able to make some nice traps.
Hasn't that already been done...
The ONLY use a camp has AT ALL is the 1 in 999,999,999,999,999,999 chance you have an entertainer in your group to heal mind wounds or re-apply a mind buff.
Page 1 of 1