Ranger Archive
Thread: We need traps vs. NPCs/PCs
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BlakkStar
Sun Aug 15, 2004 8:15 am
#1
This comes up alot as does the response "Devs said we wont get traps that work vs. humanoids."
Sorry this doesnt cut it. First of all their NEED to be some form of traps that work against NPCs/PCs as there are traps for damage and dots (Commando, CM, respectively) vs. everything in game. Why should we get the short end of the stick? Especially when are traps are essentially just state effects. I dont see how this is anywhere imbalancing. Also the devs have said many things that have obviously been shown to conflict with things they said in the past (e.g. camo on npcs). At first the argument could be made that we get traps vs. creatures and BH should get traps vs humanoids (as they have asked for constantly). But now after the sp drop of BH there is no logical reason they should get traps as they are not required to get the trap tree in scout anymore.
I'm sorry but the whole ranger is suppose to be PVE/creature-centric argument is bull**edit**. It is ridiculously to make a class oriented to one aspect of the game when it has such a high sp cost. We dont even need to go into the fact that we aren't even PVE-viable. Damn shame. I like the idea of traps but they suck.
I only use wire mesh against very few creatures and mostly don't even need to use that. MAnytraps useful against NPCs and PCS!!!
Ranger ranting done...
Rebelcapt
Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:19 pm
#2
Did holocron or someone say that we would get them, then the devs said we wouldnt get them?
Owen-Lars
Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:40 pm
#3
Its a very hard one to gauge and something that would need alot of work if it were to be implemented. I mean if our traps did work on PC's and NPC's melee combat as we know it would become useless.
What i mean by this is in the PvE sense: You locate a NS, you lob in a phaescene dart, she slows to an incredably slow pace and because some NS ONLY melee this would mean no damage to the player at all, which means no risk. Alternatively the ranger could use a adhesive mesh trap, same effect.
In a PvP sense you can also see the difficulties it would cause. Ranged guys would cry that everytime they tried to kite the would be rooted or slowed so the melee guys could straight out own them. The melee guys would complain that they couldnt get to ranged guys because they would be rooted and slowed.
Another thing to note is the various effects the traps have, one being Dizzy. Dizzy along with a posture down move is one hell of a nice abliity in PvE and PvP and would enable ANY combat class with a posture down ability to KD/Dizzy the targets.
If we went into PvP and npc traps then the whole trap system would need changing, the way our traps work and the effects they do would all need looking at and perhaps 'nerfing'. I think the only possible way we can possibly implement traps in PvP and PvE is to have stealth added and have ground traps work on NPC's/PC's. So for example you put stealth on, noone can see you, you creep up, place a trap down in line with the target, expose yourself, get the target to chase you and boom they run over the trap. Effects such as snare, combat delay and kd/dizzy would all be an option then.
Personally i want to see traps develope into great creature hunting tools, but this is just me, that is not to say i wouldnt suport other ideas. I would like to see combat delay traps added, special state traps and traps that can genuinly aid us in hunting.
JBMat
Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:04 pm
#4
We hunt creatures.
BHs hunt people.
Our traps should work against pets.
nuff said
JB
BlakkStar
Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:05 pm
#5
We hunt creatures.
BHs hunt people.
Our traps should work against pets.
nuff said
JB
********
Devs gave me a dizzy trap. I should be able to use it.
Your childish logic won't work here. I'm not a 2 year old BH.
Try again or don't try at all.
Thanks
superBOY5
Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:13 pm
#6
I can understand reasons for PCs or toons, but NPCs should be fair game. And even at +125 Trapping, NS and the like should still be out of our range to trap on a regular basis, look at CL on the Gorax and the like, NS are around that level of Challenge and should be out of the range of most from knocking down or if we had traps to trap on a regular basis....
BlakkStar
Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:28 pm
#7
Its a very hard one to gauge and something that would need alot of work if it were to be implemented. I mean if our traps did work on PC's and NPC's melee combat as we know it would become useless.
What i mean by this is in the PvE sense: You locate a NS, you lob in a phaescene dart, she slows to an incredably slow pace and because some NS ONLY melee this would mean no damage to the player at all, which means no risk. Alternatively the ranger could use a adhesive mesh trap, same effect.
The effects of phenacine darts don't last that long and as I can remember has a timer on using it again. At best it would be similar to how warcry use to work but not as game-breaking (personally I liked how warcry worked in the past :smileyhappy
.
.In a PvP sense you can also see the difficulties it would cause. Ranged guys would cry that everytime they tried to kite the would be rooted or slowed so the melee guys could straight out own them. The melee guys would complain that they couldnt get to ranged guys because they would be rooted and slowed.
True but being slowed is like I said before, a less game-breaking version of the old warcry. Rooted is another beast in itself. Maybe the cert for it could be placed at Master Scout instead of trap 4. When it comes down to it, we already know the disadvantage rangers have at PVP. And now after the BH sp drop, how many people actually master Scout? Personally, most of the Master Scouts I know are really Master RAngers, who tired of the lack of benefit of Ranger and dropped to master Scout to free up some sp.
Another thing to note is the various effects the traps have, one being Dizzy. Dizzy along with a posture down move is one hell of a nice abliity in PvE and PvP and would enable ANY combat class with a posture down ability to KD/Dizzy the targets.
Yeah and I think this is a good thing. As it stands most professions already have a dizzy somewhere in there abilities so the dizzy trap would just add to the methods that one could use for applying that state.
If we went into PvP and npc traps then the whole trap system would need changing, the way our traps work and the effects they do would all need looking at and perhaps 'nerfing'. I think the only possible way we can possibly implement traps in PvP and PvE is to have stealth added and have ground traps work on NPC's/PC's. So for example you put stealth on, noone can see you, you creep up, place a trap down in line with the target, expose yourself, get the target to chase you and boom they run over the trap. Effects such as snare, combat delay and kd/dizzy would all be an option then.
We don't even need to go that far. I truly fail to see how the implementation of traps on PCs/NPCs is so imbalancing if they were to be implemented as is. I understand with the rumored and mythical Combat REvamp that should be arriving when the planets align, that and idea such as "traps working on NPCs/PCs" would definitely need some serious looking at. However as it stands, they should test the idea of traps on people.
Personally i want to see traps develope into great creature hunting tools, but this is just me, that is not to say i wouldnt suport other ideas. I would like to see combat delay traps added, special state traps and traps that can genuinly aid us in hunting.
Personally I would like to use traps that actually help. The stuff they have in-game now is laughable for melee rangers. Honestly before the creature nerf, my traps weresomewhat more useful. I remember the days that I couldn't solo (higer level) rancors as a TKM (maybe if I was buffed but I didn't get buffed that much back then). Now I can take on an enraged lair solo, unbuffed with a little caution. Buffed I can fall asleep and solo the lair. Nonetheless, I did find wire mesh and phenacine darts pretty useful back then but mostly I just used traps if I was group hunting with friends who needed xp. I would just throw traps and heal my friends.
Owen-Lars
Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:55 pm
#8
Phaescenes are spammable and last for quiet a while, enough time to get off perhaps 10 headshots. Another thing is even if a delay was introduced, it could be bypassed by alternating between admesh and phaescene.
All in all id much prefer traps that increase our usefullness in PvE than 'thrown' traps that effect other players and npcs. It would cause too many problem, require too much time to balance when we could be getting much more PvE usefull abliities.
Perhaps PvP traps could be added to BH if they had decided to take the trapping line in scout.
BlakkStar
Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:39 pm
#9
Good points.
Well then I think the next step would be to leave, scout traps alone (creature only) and then taking the modular approach that Rangers have described in many ways, and have them work on creatures+humanoids. I think my biggest issue is that SWG has a vary narrow view of what it means to be a "ranger." In fact i think that squad leader, commando, and ranger are the three most poorly defined professions in the game and they all consume a considerable amount of SP.
Owen-Lars
Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:46 pm
#10
Well then I think the next step would be to leave, scout traps alone (creature only) and then taking the modular approach that Rangers have described in many ways, and have them work on creatures+humanoids. I think my biggest issue is that SWG has a vary narrow view of what it means to be a "ranger." In fact i think that squad leader, commando, and ranger are the three most poorly defined professions in the game and they all consume a considerable amount of SP.
Yes i see what you mean and yeah SL, commando and ranger are very poorly 'implemented' atm. I wouldnt say defigned in regards to what they should do, for example commandos heavy weapons experts, rangers masters or the wilderness/creature hunting, SL brave leaders of squad that can turn the tide in a battle. The problem is that these are not implemented to support the design views unfortunatly.
As for the vision of what ranger should be (creature killer) its around the idea i always wanted for ranger. I always wanted to travel the universe and hunt creatures, explore the wilderness, survive from the land and be a great knowledge source regarding the wilderness to other players. If you have played through Knights of the old republic you will recognise my dream of playing one of the famous hunters in the hunting lodge in anchorhead, tatooine.
Its that vission i have always wanted to play and live the saga doing. Obviously im still waiting for the profession skills to catch up but my vision still remains in tact.
These are just my opinions on how i see ranger. Others i would expect have very different opinions and it all boils down to what things you 'locked onto' from the films and SW stuff.
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