Ranger Archive
Thread: To buff or not to buff, that is the question.
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Combat_Medic_to_be
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:01 pm
#1
I've actually got 2 long time friends who are docs, just havent utilised their offers of free buffs too much, heh. In that case I'm disapointed in my mabari, it seemed to be doing so well before
Fodder650
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:01 pm
#2
As someone who apparently keeps lighting the fire of this discussion. Let me say that i think most buffed players know tactics just as well as unbuffed players. Buffed players take on bigger targets then us unbuffed players so you have to be able to know how to fight.
There are some fighters who just wear the 90% armor, pay that extra 10k for the 2600 buff instead of the 2550, who just stand there and take the abuse not realizing what they are doing wrong. Lets look at some of the rifleman players who will go up to 0m with a T21 and open fire. This is something that cant be done unbuffed so i guess there can be a holier then thou attitude from unbuffed rifleman who know that the buffs are allowing this. Because of there insane regen costs there is no downside to doing this.
There are also some of us who feel that buffs are what killed grouping in this game and changed the game to a soloist affair. Then the creature handler, creature changes, from what was it 6 months ago removed a lot of armor from creatures and made them so much easier to kill. That the challange in the game was lost.
The "Buffed fighters wont be able to fight post CURB" argument. Well thanks to an NDA I can't answer that. But for those who arent in the alpha theres no way to know one or another so the argument. I fight buffed whenever i want to grab a lot of organics from Dath or Endor. I just prefer to not be attached to a timer if i have the option.
I think the really interesting thing we are seeing here is how many people fight unbuffed. I truly thought i was alone. And i think those of us who fight like this truly think of ourselves as being in a different game then the buffers. Who would have guessed that this would have even come up a month ago? I think we are still seeing this because people want a challange. And not a challange in TK/Fencer can i tank an ancient krayt.
In short - most buffers use tactics and think out there attack. Just some of them make everyone look bad when there holding a T21 at 0m
Most unbuffers cant understand why people dont want to see what the game was meant to be like.
Interesting isnt it? I sure wish the devs could see this
There are some fighters who just wear the 90% armor, pay that extra 10k for the 2600 buff instead of the 2550, who just stand there and take the abuse not realizing what they are doing wrong. Lets look at some of the rifleman players who will go up to 0m with a T21 and open fire. This is something that cant be done unbuffed so i guess there can be a holier then thou attitude from unbuffed rifleman who know that the buffs are allowing this. Because of there insane regen costs there is no downside to doing this.
There are also some of us who feel that buffs are what killed grouping in this game and changed the game to a soloist affair. Then the creature handler, creature changes, from what was it 6 months ago removed a lot of armor from creatures and made them so much easier to kill. That the challange in the game was lost.
The "Buffed fighters wont be able to fight post CURB" argument. Well thanks to an NDA I can't answer that. But for those who arent in the alpha theres no way to know one or another so the argument. I fight buffed whenever i want to grab a lot of organics from Dath or Endor. I just prefer to not be attached to a timer if i have the option.
I think the really interesting thing we are seeing here is how many people fight unbuffed. I truly thought i was alone. And i think those of us who fight like this truly think of ourselves as being in a different game then the buffers. Who would have guessed that this would have even come up a month ago? I think we are still seeing this because people want a challange. And not a challange in TK/Fencer can i tank an ancient krayt.
In short - most buffers use tactics and think out there attack. Just some of them make everyone look bad when there holding a T21 at 0m
Most unbuffers cant understand why people dont want to see what the game was meant to be like.
Interesting isnt it? I sure wish the devs could see this
Message Edited by Fodder650 on 03-03-2005 04:07 PM
NateNeurotic
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:12 pm
#3
I personally like to fight unbuffed. Why? Well, because buffs are expensive. Also, because special attacks are meant to be special, and not standard. Also because armor is heavy, and I like knowing that my armor is effing up some of my stats (or lack of armor keeping my stats prime). That's just how I like to play.
I think one major problem is that people like to generalize. I see a lot of people who fight buffed just, well... they need it. Some have so much armor on that they can't do anything without the buff, and when they buff is gone, they still special away until they have no health/action/mind damage left. But I'm not going to take my observations, make a generalization, and say that everyone who fights buffed is like that. As for the combat upgrade... *stares at the monitor with a confused look*
Anyway, Kudos to you and your tactics. I'm sure you'll be taking down much more difficult things than I am. You know who you are, and you aren't gonna let people get you down! Making this thread alone proves you're a cut above the rest.
AgonThalia
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:24 pm
#4
depends on the hunting situation:
Superior preparation breeds superior results.
Currently i am leveling in rifleman for my imminent return to master ranger, and Oppma and i were hunting out on dantooine walking from mission to mission killing targets of opportunity. We were both buffed and armored. From the middle of nowhere, a shuttle dropped off 12 stormtroopers led by 4 dark troopers. At that point i was very happy that i was buffed. Now, I went into the middle of the frey and pulled out my Vibro Lance, Oppma took a prone position in the rear, he was strafing them with his T21 and i was using area attacks to subdue and then kill them. Using a combination of intimidation aoe dizzy and aoe kd... we took them all down.
buffs are a tool to accomplish what you want, and not a way of life.
use what you have and use it well... but to rely on one thing alone is foolish in my opinion.
Superior preparation breeds superior results.
Currently i am leveling in rifleman for my imminent return to master ranger, and Oppma and i were hunting out on dantooine walking from mission to mission killing targets of opportunity. We were both buffed and armored. From the middle of nowhere, a shuttle dropped off 12 stormtroopers led by 4 dark troopers. At that point i was very happy that i was buffed. Now, I went into the middle of the frey and pulled out my Vibro Lance, Oppma took a prone position in the rear, he was strafing them with his T21 and i was using area attacks to subdue and then kill them. Using a combination of intimidation aoe dizzy and aoe kd... we took them all down.
buffs are a tool to accomplish what you want, and not a way of life.
use what you have and use it well... but to rely on one thing alone is foolish in my opinion.
Temujin23
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:46 pm
#5
I used to never get buffs. I would wear ubese, not use vk's, and I could solo enraged rancors just fine. (Though I guess powerboost is sort of a buff.) However, these past few months I've been getting regular buffs, and I agree with what's been said in this thread so far. You still have to know how to fight, just differently. And personally, I'd prefer a 2k buff with 3:40 duration over a 2600 buff of shorter duration.
Last night I felt like a big man, though-- when my buffs ran out during a black sun hunt on endor, I wasn't ready to quit yet, so I kept going. The rest of the spawns that I found were the weaker ones (just thugs and henchmen, no assassins or guards), but it still felt like an accomplishment to kill them unbuffed.
al-djinn'i
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Fodder650
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:50 pm
#6
BTW one of the more odd things to come out of teaching the members of my guild how to fight unbuffed (and im one of really 3 who fight this way of the 85 of us) is that the buffers are taking what they learn and applying it to there buffed hunting. Plus when there buffs drop they dont feel useless and can keep fighting
linusboarder
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:55 pm
#7
This is why it looks like buffed hunters are bad fighters
There's a guy in my guild who i occasionally hunt with unbuffed. We are both master Swordsmen so we can both take a lot of damage, but I tend to do most of my fighting unbuffed, whiel he usually buffs for his fighting. Here' the difference in our fighting styles:
I wear my 75% kinetic NS enhanced Ubese armor (my alt's a Master Armorsmith) that takes one Brandy to put the whole suit on unbuffed, or i wear my Unbuffed padded armor with about 50% kinetic and 30% Energy, yet low HAM
He wears His PvP Composite
I Throw traps to cause melee defenses to go down and blindness to take affect, also it sometimes draws individuals away from the heard.
He charges full steam.
Unbuffed i usually use a 2-handed curved sword(with low HAM costs)
He sticks with his scythe
I /grouptell "You know you don't have to use your specials for every attack, especially against these cratures their not that tough, this will keep you from taking out your action and health bar"
He /reply "How do youkill anythingwithout a special attack?"
I use "2-handed Area hit" wisely and usually follow it with a /tendDamage Self to heal the damage i just inflicted on myself.
He specials himself bar into oblivion
I usually have full food and drink by drinking garrmoral, brandy and eating won-won's and synthasteaks. I check these often to make sure i never die with an empty stomach
He doesn't bother with food buffing
I live and fight the next monster,
He gets tripple incapped (usually doing more damagee to himself than the monster).
And that's why the stereotype exists that buffed fighters don't know how to fight, because some think that the only way to attack is to special attack
Message Edited by linusboarder on 03-03-2005 01:59 PM
Circe' Pojia
Calculus_Entropy
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:05 pm
#8
Great, great post. It gave me a different perspective on the 2 game thing. This is why I love discussion threads, you just get so much new perspective.
Fodder650 wrote:
As someone who apparently keeps lighting the fire of this discussion. Let me say that i think most buffed players know tactics just as well as unbuffed players. Buffed players take on bigger targets then us unbuffed players so you have to be able to know how to fight.
Yup
.
There are some fighters who just wear the 90% armor, pay that extra 10k for the 2600 buff instead of the 2550, who just stand there and take the abuse not realizing what they are doing wrong. Lets look at some of the rifleman players who will go up to 0m with a T21 and open fire. This is something that cant be done unbuffed so i guess there can be a holier then thou attitude from unbuffed rifleman who know that the buffs are allowing this. Because of there insane regen costs there is no downside to doing this.
Yes, but remember that tanks need to be able to stand up to the damage that the rifle aren't taking. I know there are ways to avoid it, but in a group, you almsot have to buffed. More on groups in a sec.
There are also some of us who feel that buffs are what killed grouping in this game and changed the game to a soloist affair. Then the creature handler, creature changes, from what was it 6 months ago removed a lot of armor from creatures and made them so much easier to kill. That the challange in the game was lost.
I understand the view that buffs killed group hunting, but I still only hunt in groups. As I said, there is almost nothing we can't take (even if it is just 2 of us). I am not terribly upset becuase I always group with the people I would group with if we still HAD to group. Amazingly enough, I still group with the people I used to group with when we DID have to group
The "Buffed fighters wont be able to fight post CURB" argument. Well thanks to an NDA I can't answer that. But for those who arent in the alpha theres no way to know one or another so the argument. I fight buffed whenever i want to grab a lot of organics from Dath or Endor. I just prefer to not be attached to a timer if i have the option.
Once again, since I carry a Doc wherever I go, I don't have to worry about timers. As for the NDA, you can certainly mention that you don't know anything, whichI say is true.
I think the really interesting thing we are seeing here is how many people fight unbuffed. I truly thought i was alone. And i think those who of us who fight like this truly think of ourselves as being in a different game then the buffers. Who would have guessed that this would have even come up a month ago? I think we are still seeing this because people want a challange. And not a challange in TK/Fencer can i tank an ancient krayt.
Actually, there are seperate games for the buffed and the unbuffed. Part of my discussion is to leave out the stackers, becuase they are ina league of their own.
In short - most buffers use tactics and think out there attack. Just some of them make everyone look bad when there holding a T21 at 0m
/whistle innocently.
Most unbuffers cant understand why people dont want to see what the game was meant to be like.
I would argue that if the game was meant to be like that, there wouldn't be buffs in the first place.
Interesting isnt it? I sure wish the devs could see this
Message Edited by Fodder650 on 03-03-2005 04:04 PM
Kiryoku
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:17 pm
#9
people think i getdown on the "buffed" because i am an avid non-buffer... but that's not the case...
for me, it's all about reducing effort... buffs are a hassle for me - even with several doctor friends offering buffs... i see no reason to waste the resources or the time to buff up for most of my game play...
the other day i took anewbie (working on master marksman)into the warren to complete the first half and get them the widow badge... neither of us had buffs, and it was onlytricky at one part... it may help that TK isa greatunbuffed/unarmored profession (just don't use your vibroknucks, folks, and you will surprise yourself)... but the point is: buffs are not necessary for even some "tough" content..
for long high-CL hunts and for difficult game content, i buff up... it's a matter of making the next 3 hours more convenient and sometimes making the impossible, possible... there are tactics when buffed, but only when you are fighting something that can kill you regardless of buffs...
the problem is, some folks have neverfought without buffs... for them, buffs are mandatory, not just about convenience... they are the ones that use buffs as a substitute for tactics... these are the people that give buffs a bad name... and they are actually very rare...
i guess what i'm trying to say is, there are two ways of looking at it... i don't get buffs because i'm too lazy - i don't want to seek them out... but some folks actually get lazy because of buffs - this is what leads to the theory of "buffed folks don't know tactics"...
on the CU:
i like the HAM system we have... i like how you must balance your offense with your defense with your survival... the current issue with buffs is the massive difference between unbuffed and buffed... unbuffed you must actively seek the balance, buffed you can have the absolute best of all three (free specials, heavy armor, and more health)... in the CU, they need to close the gap a little...
what i am scared of is:in decreasing the effectiveness of buffs, they will increase the need for buffs... right now, i can do all but the highest-end content without buffs... i'd really like to not need buffs after the CU too, but have them ready for me when i do need them...
Fodder650
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:19 pm
#10
Ok lets talk about the reasons buffs are in game. In short the docs complained they had no way to make money and were locked into hospitals. People werent forced to tip when getting fixed up. The devs introduced the buff to give doctors a source of income. And never really thought about how far it could go.
When buffs hit there first peak of what was it over 3000 HAM bonuses for 2 hours the devs adjusted it so there was no more randomness to buffs it was based on a set number dependent on the buff kits. Since then the buffs are back up to nearly 2900 for a med center using 940's (oh yeah wifes a doc ). But now we are faced with durations of 3 hours to in some cases almost 4 from what i have heard.
So regen rates and the costs of specials became a non-issue while buffed.
Now lets talk about the chef revamp. Chef's complained they had nothing to sell but a broken drink (tat sunburn). So the devs gave them a whole new lease on life. What this has done is allowed the unbuffed player the option of lowering his specials cost to near 0 again like a buffed player. PLus it gave the buffed player the option of ahrissa, brandy, and canapes to make the one weak point in buffing, the mind which im sure the devs thought was the equalizer, and make it just as strong as the rest of the stats. So thats where we stand today with the supermen. And really the unbuffed player is stronger then he/she should be because of the chef revamp.
Of course the flip side is that the smugglers spice market flopped because food took over in that role and for some unknown reason they cant experiment on there items for sale. They should be able to experiment and for every bit they add a downer effect should be added. BUt thats another discussion.
Then you get the other side effects of buffing. Comp and Ubese and nothing else except padded which can have a cost of 700!! to all substats. We lost anyone looking like an individual. They all looked like clones (HEY!! Maybe they planned that!! Ep 3 coming soon to..)
And silly leexard are you telling me you fight at 0m with a T21?! No wonder you complain about no armor on your hands and feet. tsk tsk
When buffs hit there first peak of what was it over 3000 HAM bonuses for 2 hours the devs adjusted it so there was no more randomness to buffs it was based on a set number dependent on the buff kits. Since then the buffs are back up to nearly 2900 for a med center using 940's (oh yeah wifes a doc
). But now we are faced with durations of 3 hours to in some cases almost 4 from what i have heard.So regen rates and the costs of specials became a non-issue while buffed.
Now lets talk about the chef revamp. Chef's complained they had nothing to sell but a broken drink (tat sunburn). So the devs gave them a whole new lease on life. What this has done is allowed the unbuffed player the option of lowering his specials cost to near 0 again like a buffed player. PLus it gave the buffed player the option of ahrissa, brandy, and canapes to make the one weak point in buffing, the mind which im sure the devs thought was the equalizer, and make it just as strong as the rest of the stats. So thats where we stand today with the supermen. And really the unbuffed player is stronger then he/she should be because of the chef revamp.
Of course the flip side is that the smugglers spice market flopped because food took over in that role and for some unknown reason they cant experiment on there items for sale. They should be able to experiment and for every bit they add a downer effect should be added. BUt thats another discussion.
Then you get the other side effects of buffing. Comp and Ubese and nothing else except padded which can have a cost of 700!! to all substats. We lost anyone looking like an individual. They all looked like clones (HEY!! Maybe they planned that!! Ep 3 coming soon to..)
And silly leexard are you telling me you fight at 0m with a T21?! No wonder you complain about no armor on your hands and feet. tsk tsk
Obata
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:21 pm
#11
I have a couple of insights on this. I think the biggest problem with buffs is that they negate all armor encumberance other than mind. As someone who is almost always buffed (I am a doc, afterall), I can tell you that without high resist armor, buffs don't help much. Yes, they let you use specials at will, but it terms of taking damage, they only buy you a couple of hits, if that.I've beenattacked and killed while unarmored many times by the same mobs that can barely hurt me when I'm in comp armor. Without my armor, I don't have a prayer.I don't think health and action buffs have nearly the impact that secondary buffs do.
There is one positive effect on balance. Doc buffs enable players to migrate their stats to make their mind pools less of a weakness. The mind pool is, without a doubt, the biggest problem in combat. It was never intended to be the limiting factor that it is. The devs removed mind healing from stims near the end of beta to keep medics from being overpowered. If we had to keep our stats balanced, mind would be an even bigger weakness.
icarus-uk
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:23 pm
#12
I buff all the time to fight. If Im bored I'll get a buff and find something to do, even if thats sitting in a cantina chatting. I wear my armour constantly, the full suit not a mini. I carry my T21 and when I fight I charge right upto a target and harvest as soon as it drops to the floor.
Why? Because I can.
I currently have a contract for naboo scaley, it means hunting a billion insect creatures, weak, feeble and only dropping 40 per critter. Speed is of the essence. Getting buffed allows me to hunt faster, more efficiently and so spend less time farting about getting into position and taking each critter down from 60 metres.
Does this make me less tacticly minded? Like hell is does. I know how to take down an ancient rancor, I know how to take down a krayt, my favorite game is kimogila on lok, I can kill these as well. Do I run up to them and wave my T21 in their faces? No, that would be suicide.
Just because I can buff doesnt make me less of a Ranger. I adapt to the given situation, thats what a Ranger should be about.
Why? Because I can.
I currently have a contract for naboo scaley, it means hunting a billion insect creatures, weak, feeble and only dropping 40 per critter. Speed is of the essence. Getting buffed allows me to hunt faster, more efficiently and so spend less time farting about getting into position and taking each critter down from 60 metres.
Does this make me less tacticly minded? Like hell is does. I know how to take down an ancient rancor, I know how to take down a krayt, my favorite game is kimogila on lok, I can kill these as well. Do I run up to them and wave my T21 in their faces? No, that would be suicide.
Just because I can buff doesnt make me less of a Ranger. I adapt to the given situation, thats what a Ranger should be about.
JBMat
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:28 pm
#13
My argument
If I can hunt unbuffed and unarmored now - I should be able to after the CU. Maybe not solo, but I can tell my teammates what to do. If they listen fine, if not, I find new teammembers.
Tactics are not standing in one spot, spamming specials, while wearing armor that essential renders you impervious to everything. That is being a dumbass. Anyone can be a dumbass, the game is full of them.
Tactics is using the right weapon(s) for the job, at the correct ranges, using terrain, cover, concealment, and knowing how to support team mates.
I do buff know and then, even armor. I am helping a buddy make the last couple of boxes in FS. Today was the "Walk of Death". The Science Outpost to the Village on Dath. We left a wake of dead things and people in our wake, and he filled another box. But what's funny is he was not armored, I was only in Ubese jacket and pants, and we still used tactics to beat on stuff - like I would initiate combat with a pistol rather than him running up to a target to TK slap it. We made them come to us, after we picked good ground.
Oh yeah, maxed trapping too, again. That's also tactics - use combat multipliers.
I may not be able to fight everything the same way I do know after the CU, but at least I am not learning from jump street. Can't wait to see a can of spam try his new armor and weapons and get ate by a durni, and you know it will happen. Well, maybe not a durni, maybe a rasp.
JB
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