Ranger Archive

Thread: Question/Proposal: Fauna Survey (NOT Sample) Tool

ZeligtheLiar
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:03 am
#1
Let me start with what this is not: This is not a proposal to revamp tracking, or change the skill as it stands. This is not a request for waypoints to mobs. I've read up on ranger, using the Search tool and everything and I already know why that isn't so. This isn't me begging for harvesters or a sample tool for creature resources. I think the challenge of hunting and killing is appropriate.


Some introduction: I'm a master doctor on my server, and I've taken up some scout and combat skills to hunt the herbivore meat I need. I was already comfortablewith non-creature resource harvesting (having mastered artisan early in my career) and found an interesting familiarity while hunting creature resources.


(disclaimer: this may be old to you but it was a breakthrough for me and so I'm sharing it in case other newbies to hunting read and benefit)


It appeared to me at first that the amount of whatever resource I harvested was purely random and arbitrary. After a while I started noticing that the "weak and sickly", "medium", and "fat and healthy" description corresponded with the quantity I harvested. My first instinct was to judge this to be associated with how long the resource had been shifted in, but quickly discounted that theory. I soon began to realize that creature resources have concentrations, and are regionally based just like non-creature resources. The only difference I found, and it was frustrating, was the prose element of describing it as "weak and sickly", etc. and the fact that there was no feedback besides that to tell you if you're getting close to a higher concentration. I hooked up with a ranger friend of mine and while his skill allowed him to track a specific animal, it did nothing to help us find the best habitat for hunting a resource.


Now I find this to be very confusing. There already exists in this game the flora survey tool, which tells artisans where to find high concentrations of organic non-creature resources. It would not at all be a long stretch to think that some bright scientist out there would say to himself, "If I twist this thingy and recalibrate... I can seek out creature lifeforms instead of plant!". Every science-fiction setting I know has the "tricorder" equivalent! Twist the knobby things, read the blinky lights and follow the arrow to where critters live. In SW there are many examples of biological creature scanning. In the firstpartof Episode 4 the officer stopped the gunner from firing on Artoo's and Threepio's escape pod because there were "No life forms aboard." Artoo scans for lifeforms frequently in the movies and books, which leads to the related concept of droid-assisted surveying and tracking (for creatures, not persons, different than BH tracking).


What I propose is a new tool for rangers. A "Fauna Survey Tool" that will allow rangers with the tracking skill to survey for the local concentration of whatever creature resources are on the planet. It wouldnot have the ability to sample, much like the solar and wind survey tools already. It would simply read the local concentration and give that information to the player in the already-existing format of the other survey tools.


This would NOT replace tracking, as it gives the player a different focus of information. Instead of leading the player to a specific creature, it would lead the player to a good location (habitat) for the type of creature resource he wants to find. Then the player could use tracking to hunt down the animals that drop that resource.


What do you folks think? Has this been tried before and rejected? I didn't find mention of it, though there were suggestions and discussionof waypoints for mobs and creature harvesters (cloning vats, ranches, slaugherhouses, whatever you want to call it). Am I asking for too much practical function from the tracking skill? Is it overpowered already?


Thanks folks,


Ruda Erev, Naritus

Puck_Starfire
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:06 am
#2
Hmmm good idea, but I don't think it'll fly. It's kinda like giving Rangers a waypoint to the strongest concentrations of animal resources, and I don't think the devs will go. Besides, it's un-Rangerish.
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:11 am
#3

Zelig...I copied this out of the SotP. Would that fit with your idea?


  • Request for ability to determine resource attributes on a corpse before harvesting with a command /AssessResource

    • The ability would provide a list window with the appropiate resource selections available on the targeted corpse (meat / hide / bone)
    • Once a selection is made, a player would receive the /examine window for the chosen resource
    • The player would not receive a physical resource, only the information regarding its attributes
    • The ability could be used multiple times to receive the data on the other available resources
    • The information could also contain whether harvesting the resource would produce a Fat, Medium, Skinny result
    • The attributes consist of items such as Overall Quality, Unit Toughness, Potential Energy, etc
    • It has been suggested that the amount of data displayed would expand based on the level of the Creature Knowledge skill

    • In the past there was talk about allowing us to see the creature's fat/skinny rating in the examine window. That may be more what you are thinking of.

    Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 03-02-2004 08:17 AM



    Calculus Entropy
    Ranger Blue Glowie Emeritus
    Garindan used /areatrack to find Han.
    ZeligtheLiar
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:20 am
    #4




    Calculus_Entropy wrote:

    Zelig...There has been talk in the past to allow us to see the creature's skinny/fat and healty status when examining it. Would you concede we need to work with that idea rather than the survey tool?





    My goal with this idea was to address the lack of feedbackinthe frustrating and bogglingly low-tech (no, it's "challenging")method of kill-and-harvest, "ok it's crap here", move 1Km, kill-and-harvest, "little better here," etc. when hunting. (run-on sentence, anyone?)


    If you're already close to a solution then sure, go for it! It's easier to push a familiar idea than to get anyone to listen to a completely new one. I tried to keep the "fauna survey tool" as close to existing game-mechanics as possible for just that reason.


    Ruda Erev, Naritus

    Calculus_Entropy
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:38 am
    #5




    ZeligtheLiar wrote:


    My goal with this idea was to address the lack of feedbackinthe frustrating and bogglingly low-tech (no, it's "challenging")method of kill-and-harvest, "ok it's crap here", move 1Km, kill-and-harvest, "little better here," etc. when hunting. (run-on sentence, anyone?)




    Are you talking about 1 type of resource or resoruces in general. Do you mean you kill a rasp, harvest the meat and it is a skinny harvest, then you move to another area and harvest meat from a rasp, and it is better? Perhaps I am not getting the point, so I will reread your original post. As far as skinny vs. fat, I thought it was based on resource shifts. I.e. You start getting skinnies the closer to a shift occuring on a particular resource.


    Edit: I reread your original post, and would like the community to respond to your idea that fat vs. skinny is regionally based and not resource-type based. I do not think this is the case, but I may be wrong. Perhaps it is creature based?

    Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 03-02-2004 08:41 AM



    Calculus Entropy
    Ranger Blue Glowie Emeritus
    Garindan used /areatrack to find Han.
    NRaas
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:47 am
    #6
    "I reread your original post, and would like the community to respond to your idea that fat vs. skinny is regionally based and not resource-type based."


    As far as I know, the "healthiness" of a creature (skinny, medium, fat) is determined when the lair is added to the system. All creatures that spawn from that lair will all have the same "healthiness".


    Note that "healthiness" is defined by the resource (a creature can be "skinny" in meat, but "fat" in hide).


    However... I don't know how the lair definesthe "healthiness" it provides its spawn. Though I suspect it is randomly generated when the lair is created.



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    ZeligtheLiar
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:49 am
    #7




    Calculus_Entropy wrote:




    ZeligtheLiar wrote:


    My goal with this idea was to address the lack of feedbackinthe frustrating and bogglingly low-tech (no, it's "challenging")method of kill-and-harvest, "ok it's crap here", move 1Km, kill-and-harvest, "little better here," etc. when hunting. (run-on sentence, anyone?)




    Are you talking about 1 type of resource or resoruces in general. Do you mean you kill a rasp, harvest the meat and it is a skinny harvest, then you move to another area and harvest meat from a rasp, and it is better? Perhaps I am not getting the point, so I will reread your original post. As far as skinny vs. fat, I thought it was based on resource shifts. I.e. You start getting skinnies the closer to a shift occuring on a particular resource.







    Yes, I am getting different results on harvest based on the location of the harvest. I have gotten all three results in different areas of a planet on the same resource repeatedly. This is what led me to the conclusion that creature resources have a concentration (more detailed than skinny/medium/fat) just like non-creature resources, and by finding the region or regions on a planet that the concentration is high I can harvest fat all day long, all week long,until the resource shifts. I don't believe the prose description has anything to do with the cycle of the shift, but instead is describing in non % terms what the strength of the concentration is.


    This bothers me because it's a very Everquestrian way of describing things, and after reading all the threads I did I noticed a disturbing familiarity with the current SWG ranger and the EQ ranger. (funny though, I swear I read the SotP but completely missed the stuff you quoted and the similar survey function proposed in the animal trap/harvester item request)


    This is a high-tech game folks!Hunters in our day and age use tools to help them perform their job more efficiently. Would you suggest that rangers in SWG have resorted to hunting by print and spoor, listening with an ear-to-the-ground instead of a directional microphone?


    Calculus_Entropy
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:06 am
    #8
    Guess I have not hunted across a planet enough, or just not noticed that animals were at differeant healt levels across regions. Some hunter I am.... As far as missing the section I qouted it was inline 9247 JK:smileytongueunder the wishlist section.



    Calculus Entropy
    Ranger Blue Glowie Emeritus
    Garindan used /areatrack to find Han.
    ZeligtheLiar
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:08 am
    #9




    NRaas wrote:

    "I reread your original post, and would like the community to respond to your idea that fat vs. skinny is regionally based and not resource-type based."


    As far as I know, the "healthiness" of a creature (skinny, medium, fat) is determined when the lair is added to the system. All creatures that spawn from that lair will all have the same "healthiness".


    Note that "healthiness" is defined by the resource (a creature can be "skinny" in meat, but "fat" in hide).


    However... I don't know how the lair definesthe "healthiness" it provides its spawn. Though I suspect it is randomly generated when the lair is created.






    I first began suspecting the regional aspect when I was hunting one day. I had killed a batch of critters and was running around harvesting and was shocked to find that I was harvesting both "medium" and "fat" results! So, methodical as I am (obsessive compulsive, some say) I experimented. I did find that from the same lair, if I killed (and thus harvested) the creatures right "here" (waypointed for repetition of experiment), I would get a "medium" harvest but over "there" (again, waypointed for accuracy) I would get "fat". This was a shock, and it has to be exceedingly rare a situation for a lair to be positioned so close to the boundary between the prose "medium" and "fat" for me to get both results from the creatures it spawned. This is why I don't think it's time-based, since I was able to hop between "medium" and "fat", nor is it decided by the lair or at the spawn of the creature, since I was able to lead all of the rest of the creaturesinto "fat" territory and kill/harvest them there for an extra 1 or 2 units per corpse.


    The regional aspect of the resource would also explain why you can get "skinny" hide but "fat" meat, since those are two different resources. The concentration for one can be low, and the other one high. In fancy justification-language this could mean that the area is rich with food good for fattening them up but has a lot of thorny bushes or bad terrain, ruining their coat.


    NRaas
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:20 am
    #10
    "The regional aspect of the resource would also explain why you can get "skinny" hide but "fat" meat, since those are two different resources."


    I don't know whether the system is as deep as that... Though it is cool to think it might be.



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    ZeligtheLiar
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:28 am
    #11




    NRaas wrote:

    "The regional aspect of the resource would also explain why you can get "skinny" hide but "fat" meat, since those are two different resources."


    I don't know whether the system is as deep as that... Though it is cool to think it might be.






    Well, don't take my word for it. Experiment for yourself!


    Here's how you can do it. Go to the town of your choice. Next, take two "kill lair" missions, both for the exact same type of lair but one North of the city by a good distance and the other one South by a good distance. The larger the distance the better, to get a larger spread. Go kill/harvest and note what results you get, skinny/fat and the quantity of the harvest for both the North and South missions. Next, take East and West missions with the same distances and lairs, and note your harvests for them. If you really want accuracy you can then take the half-polar mission pairs and note their stats too.


    I did this once I formed my theory to get all fatharvests for every mission I took. I would note the direction and distance that I got the best result, then just take those missions for the rest of my session. If all I got at one city were crappy harvests, no matter the direction I hunted, then I moved on to another city and picked up there. It never failed to produce a good hunting spot. Sometimes after doing the missions all I had to do was look around and there'd be some critters in the area in wild lairs, which I cherished (and then killed).


    mrflippy
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:29 am
    #12
    It seems as though this would be better suited as an addition to tracking or examining for rangers rather than as a new tool. Rangers should already be able to determine this from our existing skills.
    Eklectrick
    Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:36 am
    #13




    ZeligtheLiar wrote:




    I first began suspecting the regional aspect when I was hunting one day. I had killed a batch of critters and was running around harvesting and was shocked to find that I was harvesting both "medium" and "fat" results! So, methodical as I am (obsessive compulsive, some say) I experimented. I did find that from the same lair, if I killed (and thus harvested) the creatures right "here" (waypointed for repetition of experiment), I would get a "medium" harvest but over "there" (again, waypointed for accuracy) I would get "fat". This was a shock, and it has to be exceedingly rare a situation for a lair to be positioned so close to the boundary between the prose "medium" and "fat" for me to get both results from the creatures it spawned. This is why I don't think it's time-based, since I was able to hop between "medium" and "fat", nor is it decided by the lair or at the spawn of the creature, since I was able to lead all of the rest of the creaturesinto "fat" territory and kill/harvest them there for an extra 1 or 2 units per corpse.


    The regional aspect of the resource would also explain why you can get "skinny" hide but "fat" meat, since those are two different resources. The concentration for one can be low, and the other one high. In fancy justification-language this could mean that the area is rich with food good for fattening them up but has a lot of thorny bushes or bad terrain, ruining their coat.






    It sounds like you were harvesting from only two different lairs. Sure they were both in different areas of the map, but you are aware that when something spawns from one single lair, all things spawning from that lair are going to be relatively identical no matter what. Your experiment would have been more effective if you had found a "skinny" lair, waypointed it, destroyed it then found a "fat" lair, waypointed it, destroyed it. Then later go back to the waypoint for the skinny lair and wait till another lair of the same kind spawns in the same area. Harvest that new lair and destroy it. If the new lair in the vicinity of the origonal skinny lair is skinny also, then you are on to something. Same for the fat one. I'm guessing you'll find that if you hunt the same 50m region for the same type of lair in a day you'll find skinny, medium, fat resources from the same area.


    otherwise your idea is cool and I'd use it, it'd give rangers another edge over scouts.





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