Ranger Archive
Thread: How I would tweak the Outdoorsman Porposal
Page 1 of 2
Calculus_Entropy
Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:52 am
#1
OK, so I started a poll about who likes the Outdoorsman Porposal, who wouldn't mind changing it a bit and who didn't like it at all. The majority of responders said they wouldn't mind it with some tweaking (I know 1 dayisn't enough to allow everyone a vote, but I think the results are a fair representation of how Rangers feel).
Time for the big let down guys. I looked over the Outdoorsman and have the following comments:
1. Conceal - Looks good to me still.
2. Tracking - Ditto.
3. Camps - Boy howdy did we get carried away on camps. Do we need turrets on a camp? I might suggest we scale it down a bit. I am glad we tried to incorporate interdependence, but machine gun nests and poison distribution systems? If we got all of those requests, they would have to make a Camping profession. As far as I am concerned, a lot of the Squad Leader modules would conflict with factional bases. I am not suggesting we need to remove modular camping, but we may pare it down a bit.
4.Traps/Grenades - I drool over thegrenade and trap concepts. I am still not sure about the grenade launcher...I mean trap launcher, but I can see why it is in there, and I would certainly use it if we got it.
5. Combat Bonuses - I would add Creature Damage Mitigation and possibly Poison or Disease Resists (I am still on the fence about the resists, but why not throw them in).
6. Harvesting - I like the setup concerning multiple harvesting (2 at Tracking 2, 3 at master), and I REALLY want to harvest trophies. I would only add the increased harvested amount we have been tossing around.
7. Creature Affinity and TN - I can't agree with CH bonuses to Rangers and would lobby to remove it, but I like the TN stuff.
So, these are just my opinions on the Outdoorsman proposal. As you can see, there is nothing radical. That is why I referred to them as tweaks in my Poll. That being said, I know we all have to make sacrifices, so I would most likely just add stuff, unless we can agree on something that needs to be removed. Let her rip guys.....
Nemo0
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:19 am
#2
I think these changes are small enough that the outdoorsman proposal stays essentially the same (very important from a Dev's point of view) but that they also reflect at least some of the changes the community is currently interested in (people think about things a bit more and realize that it's not quite right). If we change it too much, the Devs will think that we can't make up our minds. But these suggestions leave the proposal essentially the same while making it just a bit closer to what people seem to want. I think it should be fine.
Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
xUnkarNokataki
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:51 am
#3
I think the whole Outdoorsman concept is a dream, many things will never be added to the game. I think it'd be more realistic to do something in this order :
1. Fix the abilities we already have and/or improve them
2. Add new abilities / content.
It would take a bit more time (maybe with 2 publishes) but it'll give us the time to see how the Ranger would be with the fixes before thinking about some new stuff. Plus it'll be easier for the devs I think. 
xUnkarNokataki
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:52 am
#4
Er..... double post... sorry 
Message Edited by xUnkarNokataki on 03-19-2004 05:53 PM
Calculus_Entropy
Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:05 am
#5
xUnkarNokataki wrote:
I think the whole Outdoorsman concept is a dream, many things will never be added to the game. I think it'd be more realistic to do something in this order :
The Outdoorsman is not a dream. The devs told us we are to be relegated to a creature hunter role, and asked to define what we saw that role as being.
1. Fix the abilities we already have and/or improve them
We can only hope.
2. Add new abilities / content.
Uhhh....isn't that what the outdoorsman concept does?
It would take a bit more time (maybe with 2 publishes) but it'll give us the time to see how the Ranger would be with the fixes before thinking about some new stuff. Plus it'll be easier for the devs I think.
GoldMemberBria
Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:53 am
#6
Calc,
wow, so your opinion must be that the outdoorsman proposal makes us *too* powerful?As most of your suggestions are to remove things that are in that proposal?
Message Edited by GoldMemberBria on 03-19-2004 10:56 AM
xUnkarNokataki
Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:20 pm
#7
Calc you must admit that despite the great ideas it has, the concept is very hard to implement.
I doubt the whole thing will be in-game that's all... but yeah we can hope
AgonThalia
Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:20 pm
#8
I wanted to process these ideas for a bit before i responded to them (plus Ive had my coffee today
I think that your proposed changes in camps will probably closer to reality than what the Outdoorsman describes. Yes, as Rancorrider has pointed out, we have shot for the moon, we have asked for the corner slice of cake with the most frosting...will we get it? I hope so, but probably not.
The other changes, such as harvesting, is referenced in almost every single "why should I be a ranger post" that are on these forums. I have no problems shooting for the moon, and I would even add a much deeper level of stealth into ranger.
I am very hesitant to start adding, modifying, scrapping or generally doing anything until we can unite with (not under) a correspondent. Not for the reason that we need a leader...but for the pure and simple reason that until that happens, our voices arent as loud as they were with NRaas. Delta is doing everything he can for us, and for that I applaud him.
Until then, this is what I think we need to focus on:
Proposal to the other professions to support the harvesting increase
Top 10 Issues amongst rangers that the new correspondent can immediately start checking on and asking about.
Please add, subtract from this as you all see fit
thanks
I think that your proposed changes in camps will probably closer to reality than what the Outdoorsman describes. Yes, as Rancorrider has pointed out, we have shot for the moon, we have asked for the corner slice of cake with the most frosting...will we get it? I hope so, but probably not.
The other changes, such as harvesting, is referenced in almost every single "why should I be a ranger post" that are on these forums. I have no problems shooting for the moon, and I would even add a much deeper level of stealth into ranger.
I am very hesitant to start adding, modifying, scrapping or generally doing anything until we can unite with (not under) a correspondent. Not for the reason that we need a leader...but for the pure and simple reason that until that happens, our voices arent as loud as they were with NRaas. Delta is doing everything he can for us, and for that I applaud him.
Until then, this is what I think we need to focus on:
Please add, subtract from this as you all see fit
thanks
DWolfe
Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:10 pm
#9
While I'm still in favor of leaving it as is, so long as we're discussing it, I'll repost my tweaks, as detailed in the Outdoorsman thread when I was still a forum newbie.
---------------------------------------------------
As I've posted elsewhere, I am definitely more in favor of Ranger as PvE than PvP. Perhaps I'm biased. However, the suggestions made in The Outdoorsman are, in general, imminently acceptable. Some notes on where I disagree somewhat with what is presented:
combatconceal: I think that it should at least have a random chance that every time the Ranger is hit (ie, damage dealt) it may possibly break combatconceal. Having the ability be unbreakable by any other than another Ranger is a little too limited. Perhaps allow the Rifleman ability to remove someone from Cover also negate this. Otherwise, a great idea.
Ambush: I'm dubious about this, as it might be a bit too powerful. On the other hand, if all Ranger abilities are limited entirely to wilderness regions, then I think it might work. I think Ambush1 should be pushed up to Wayfaring III though.
Ghillie suits: A popular concept, but I'm not with those who think they should be more generically useful, or easily had. My ideas are based partly on actual knowledge of ghillie suits, as I knew several scouts who were required to use them during my time in the military. I think that they should bedifficult to get the materials for, and designed individually with a specific planet in mind. My thoughts are that it should require somesort of grass-like flora from the specified planet, Some sort of hide from the specified planet, some generic tailor materials, and a Camo kit for the specified planet. Quality of componentswill of course effect the final product. When the suit is created, it is a standard grey. A ranger must use an appropriate camo kit upon it, which will give him the ability to hue it as he sees fit. Only then will the ghillie suit be complete, and able to function. Thereafter, it functions as described, but only on the specific planet it is designed for.
Hide: I like, especially with the ability to hue the ghillie suit as you desire. While it will not make your avatar invisible, the hue combined with a prone posture and possibly present vegetation will do much of the job. I can see it being used in PvP as you drop out of hide, wait your 10 seconds while the enemy suddenly has to react to the new blip on their radar, and take your shot. Combined with rifleman, this would make the ultimate sniper, or with a melee class, the ultimate in the commando-style ambush.
Track: I don't know that this should be used for players. The ability to use it to track down static spawns is great, but the ability to use it to track players, even if only to the city they're in, is too much, IMO. If you insist on this, I'd limit it's range rather severely, perhaps to the same as the proposed Areatrack ranges.
Camps: Just to make sure, the existing abilities of Dancers and Medics to heal wounds within camps should still be retained as a basic feature, or else you totally nerf the Basic Camp kit. Bonuses to these things should still be modularized. Overall, I love these ideas, esp. as they require more working together between professions, and add nice abilities to Squad Leaders who are still much neglected.
Live trapping: Great idea, except that I think the numbers for how many can be carried is too much. I would start at 1 for a novice ranger, and increase up to6 for Masters.
Damage bonuses against critters: I think this is an either/or issue with Ambush. Either ambush, or damage bonuses. Not both.
Areatrack while mounted: I say no. Tracking is a fairly low process involving looking at multiple cues to figure out which direction the quarry went. Tracking from mountback is counter-intuitive. Terrain association bonuses for mounts is a go in my book, tho'.
Plusses to CL capable of being handled: I can see a +5 at Master, when the Ranger has an almost supernatural understanding of animals. But not a +5 at Novice, and especially not both.
Overall, I think this is a wonderful proposal, but I think it's a little too much to ask as it is currently. By toning it down, we've a better chance of getting it approved and less chance of eventual nerfs if it is approved and implemented.
---------------------------------------------------
All of this was written months ago, but I still hold true on every point.
edited to remove the "wall of words" effect
Message Edited by DWolfe on 03-19-2004 04:13 PM
Message Edited by DWolfe on 03-19-2004 04:14 PM
Lorell
Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:54 pm
#10
I think Agon hit it on the head. I personally feel it's too early to start talking about what we should do to the outdoorsman proposal and it seems like kind of like campaigning for the correspondent position to me. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but all of us can start making posts about changes we would like and elevating our position, but the reality is that none of it will matter until we get a new correspondent and find out where in the process the outdoorsman proposal actually is. Since it has been a month or two since we submitted it with no response, I don't think it's a good idea to try to swap it with something else. If we did, it would just start the process all over. I know all of us are a little impatient to be without a correspondent and answers, but I think it will be all resolved shortly.
Rancorrider4
Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:02 pm
#11
"Perhaps I should remind you how Nraas worked. Nraas used any idea that people threw out there."
- There is nothing wrong with how N'Raas worked. He attempted to include everyone's ideas he could within reason. He did, however, occasionally say that an idea may not be the best, but he said it politely and stated the why's and wherefore's.
- You need not remind me of anything. I am well aware of how he worked and I found very little if any fault with it. I am not exactly sure why you're wording this as you are, but if you read the resignation thread by N'Raas he had the overwhelming support of the Ranger Community. Taking issue with his method now that he's gone does not sit well with me.
- I was merely suggesting that we have a focused proposal. I think it's important to note that yes, we may not know who has seen it, but that IF indeed, it HAS been seen that telling the devs that we've now changed our minds and want to revamp the thing will be detrimental to our growth as a profession. It's my own opinion and nothing more, and given that you seem to have taken the reigns of the forum, you may do with that opinion what you please.
Stewwi
Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:58 pm
#12
Some of my ideas to maybe change or improve or add or to leave as they r the proposal :
Conceal : the devs already sai dno invisible agianst other players so what about dissaperaing form the radar and other players cant higlight us using the tab button ?? this would give us an adv but not such a great one.
also any visuals when camoed would be very appreciated.
Tracking should be kept as proposed
Camping : the turrets r a wee too much hehe
but the mine fields look interesting, for example ur a rebel defening your base, you open your camp with mind field as a protection or somethign similar.
aldo camps shouldnt break in combat
and another cool addition would be that every planet has a hazardous storm and to protect yourself and your party you set up a camp as shelter.
and also marshmallows for the camp fire.
Traps look good
Combat modifers throught scout and ranger we get increased protections and increased damage to creatures
HARVESTING : at on point in the harvest tree give allow us to collect all 3 organics and by master range rmake sure we jharvest alot more than a scout PLZ
Wayfaring : make rangers run slitghy faster instead of the crawl speed comon we deserve it we r ppl who prefer to cross the planet on foot rather than on bike if were fast enough
thats all that comes to mind atm, i could add mroe points but ill never finish like that 
Rancorrider4
Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:19 am
#13
Some of the ideas in the modular camp portion of the proposal may be reaching a bit, especially turrets, which I don't agree with, but we had a lengthy discussion as to how to handle the camp portion of it in another thread.
The majority of the community agreed that we should shoot for the moon, and compromise from there. I understand there are new Rangers just seeing these things for the first time, but I really don't see the need to suddenly start making changes to a proposal that most of us had already agreed to. The proposal is in front of them, and changing it now involves the risk of having everything pushed back even further.
Furthermore, as Agonthalia so succinctly pointed out in another thread, we are the only profession to date to work together so hard, and so closely, in putting an item like the Outdoorsman proposal in place. Not to mention the fact that it does fall closely in line with how the Dev's originally stated they viewed us as (Ultimate Creature Hunter).
I would implore you Rangers all, let us get this proposal worked out and get us something from the Developers. We are easily the most incomplete (see not broken, take a pill Squad Leaders) profession in the game. The developers have stated as much to us. They promised us large things that were supposed to follow the additions we got way back when (camo,areatrack etc.).
This is NOT too far fetched. Let's hold our ground, and not waiver at this point. Yes some things may be asking a bit much, but if we don't ask, we won't receive.
Very respectfully,
Page 1 of 2