Ranger Archive
Thread: Looking Ahead: Post-CU Outdoorsman
As always, I'd like to see our traps work against more than just creatures. We were told it would never happen, but it did happen. Just for combat medics instead of us. Also, since we were recognized (sort of) as a combat prof (kind of), it would be nice to see Rangers get some ranged and melee defense mods. I don't think that would be too much to ask.
As to a general scout revamp instead of a ranger revamp, I think it boils down to this: would we like to see our skills given some attention and brought up to par with other combat elites, or would we prefer a mere skillpoint reduction like some other profs have gotten? I could be wrong (in fact, chances are usually good), but I think that it would come down to one of those two possibilities.
All that said, I'm all for the move away from a creature-centric role.
al-djinn'i
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Were those 4 lines supposed to be Scout or Ranger skills? If they are supposed to be your new Scout profession, what do you envision for Rangers?
Those were the Scout lines. Ranger should develop as a combat-centric profession. We should develop on the "Tactical Movement" and "Tactical Combat" lines a lot. The Ranger version of tactical movement would be stealth and tactical combat would be either a unique weapon or a heavily upgraded version of traps.
Basically, I see these changes to scout as a good way to open up the Ranger profession for a better shot at a revamp and, in the process, make a better scout profession. I also think this would help Squad Leaders, so we could push for them to revamp the whole scout profession and every elite profession off of it at one time, which would be better than having them focus on the three big ones (SL, CH and Ranger) individually. By changing scout, you make changes for the elite profes easier.
That raises an interesting question:
If ranger were to be combat-centric rather than creature-centric, then in general what can rangers give to the scope of combat that other professions can't?
It's really late here for me, so I'm pretty brain dead, but I'm having trouble thinking of something. Furthermore and in light of the previous, given that some of our skills have been distilled out to other professions*, the only thing we do have unique to us is tracking (which could justifiably be given to BH's). So, I wonder if some of the tin-foil hat theories aren't that far off and that ranger might as well get scrapped and the carcass split between the other hybrid combat professions. At this very moment, I'm having a hard time imagining how a combined commando bounty hunter would be inferior to a ranger; assuming the following: bounty hunter got area track, scout got all the camps, and commando got camoflauge.
While the game has made a lot of the Ranger skills more watered down due to over-use, we must push forward to come up with new ideas. or even take ideas from other professions (armor reducing traps, perhaps?). Stealth for Riflemen is highly restricted. We could easily ask for a version that is much more powerful. We could ask for a unique roll in the GCW, etc.
Making us less creature-centric enhances our range of potential. Imagine a trap that re-encumbers an enemy making all their armor hinderances come back into play. Imagine a trap that doubles the cooldown timer on all specials. Imagine an area-attack armor debuff (no other profession has this!!) Just think outside the lines.
Yeah, I see what you're saying Owen, sounds fair enough.
It just hit me, I started comparing say MR/MRM against the following template, Master Bounty Hunter + Master Commando + 4344 Scout, then I suddenly felt as if ranger had become redundant, and that the other professions were actually missing out on not having what we're hanging on to (distributed as per my last post). Controversial thingto say, I know, but there's the reasoning.
I'll leave it there, as I realise my point may well hi-jack the thread if we persue it.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Okay, so we've got to start looking ahead to what we want down the line. I think revamping scout and Ranger should be a priority for the developers as scout also affects several other professions (BH, SL, CH). So, in theory, it wouldn't be a bad idea to push for a generic "scout revamp" rather than a specific Ranger one. Hopefully they could fix a lot of the professions at the same time.
Though I understand the basic desire to not revamp the "novice" professions, I agree with you that Scout needs a revamp to make a Ranger revamp work.
So what changes would you like to see to the outdoorsman in light of the changes in the CU?
I've already started working on some ideas for traps that would be cool (such as one that increases the cooldown timer, effectively slowinga targets' ability to attack quickly). Basically, I'm thinking that there's a lot more interesting mods and systems out there that we can ask for a trap in. So we should focus on that.
and to steal somebody else's idea from yesterday, we could make scout simlar to the medic line-- several professions coming off of it, each with different pre-reqs. As many of you know, I'm trying to push us away from a creature-centric role, so while we'll still have that, it'll be a small part of the overall plan.
Scouts and Rangers, in my mind, should be the tactical experts on the field. The special forces-- not the guys with the cannons, but the people you send in when you want somebody dead but don't want to leave any evidence. So here's the way that I would break it down: 4 lines of scout
Tactical Manuevering- contains the Terrain Negotiation and Mask Scent abilities. Although in the way that I see it, terrain negotiation should be split into two modifiers-- crawl and walk speeds, so that a Master Ranger is the only one with +50 to both, making them the fastest unit on the field.
I think this is a pretty solid idea. I'm not sure that Master Scouts would love it... but I think that from the Ranger perspective it makes alot of sense.
Tactical Combat-- contains the trapping mods and perhaps some new features such as a unique special for both ranged and melee weapons.
I've been thinking, more and more, that centerting traps in scout should be spread out and treated like grenades and Commando weapons. Having traps that are both damage dealers and state appliers makes sense. AOE traps that affect a creatures deffensive modifiers and/ or increase the attackers offenses make sense. I still think we need some lure traps as options too.
Survival Expertise-- contains the camping mods along with new skills that are essentially pre-SL skills. These give a small boost to the group dynamics.
Here's the thing. Camps need to persist even in combat and they need to provide a SIGNIFICANT regen value. I'd drop /forage all together (drop it like medical foraging) and instead just let the camps act as field hospitals and staging areas. Players in camps should get Deffensive Buffs (while in a certain radius of the center of the camp) and camps should start being a bit more planet specific (see the recent suggestion about Kashyyykian hunting camps). I like the concept of Ranger having ALOT of schematics and specials that are planet specific ... I think other than camo, camping is a place where this makes sense.
Field Bioscience-- contains the harvesting mods, creature knowledge mods and also provdies at the Tier IV box a small boost to the CL of a pet you can handle.
I'd love to see a boost for creature handling in the Ranger skillset. Rather than make it a pet level though I think having a cert for a type of pet would be keen (I said keen! lol) I still think having a "hunting dog" really fits the Ranger role. No combat skills... just a pet that can harvest the way a harvesting droid does. You just tell your pet to harvest and it goes off collecting carcasses.
As you can see, there are clear-cut roles and lines for each profession to take. SLs take the Survival line, BH's take the Tactical Manuevering line, CH's take the Field Bioscience line, etc. Rangers, I believe, should still have to take all 4, but by taking them all, they actually gain a diverse set of skills. Ranger, of course, should also be very good, but that's the way I'd set up the pre-reqs.
It seems like your talking mostly about adjusting the Scout line. I think that's cool and offers some really great possibilities for the Ranger profession.
Okay-- to the point of the post:
WHAT ASPECTS OF THE OUTDOORSMAN PROPOSAL DO YOU THINK NEED REVISION IN THE POST-CU GAME? HOW AND WHY WOULD YOU CHANGE THEM?
Great job as always Phen. Really entertaining and insightful read. I hope my comments further some of your great ideas.
I was under the impression that at leas some of us, including you, weren't opposed to the creature centric (hunters) the devs wanted wanted us to be.
So, I guess I am asking, why the sudden military Ranger stance?
For the record, I am all for creature centric with a dash of Recon (for a PvP role). One might argue that, if we are Reconning, and we get caught, we need to fight our way out. I would say, we need to use our skills to run from the fight (very brave, eh?
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Calculus_Entropy wrote:
So, what's wrong with being creature centric? If BHs were NPC/ PC centric I'd say "nothing" ... but until other professions have specials that ONLY affect NPCs and PCs then I'd say the answer to your question is"everything."I understand we basically have to choose creature centric, or not creture centric, for our revamp. If that's the current feeling then its shortsighted. Sorry...A mix will dilute us too much. Not if its done right. If the devs have decided that's what we are to be, why not focus on it (keep in mind, this is a devil's advocate response)?
I was under the impression that at least some of us, including you, weren't opposed to the creature centric (hunters) the devs wanted wanted us to be. I have no problem with our primary functionality revolving around hunting. I do have a problem with restricting us to creature combat.
So, I guess I am asking, why the sudden military Ranger stance? Not Military... COMBAT.
Personally I'd say the two best places to put combat related skills and specials would be in trapping and hunting. Survival and Camping should be based around "surviving," providing defensive bonuses mostly.
Hunting and Trapping are the two places you put combat modifiers and specials respectively. When dealing with creatures the debuffs and combat bonuses makes sense. When dealing with PCs and NPCs the roots, snares, and "defensive" traps make sense. You stop them so you can get away.
For the record, I am all for creature centric with a dash of Recon (for a PvP role). One might argue that, if we are Reconning, and we get caught, we need to fight our way out. I would say, we need to use our skills to run from the fight (very brave, eh?
The key word from the initial description of scout ... at least the word that always stood out for me ... was "versatile." Master Ranger alone should be as powerful as any other single combat Mastery. This is something that inclusion to the CL system has dictated.
My current perspecitve leads me to the conclusion that a Master Ranger should be equally versed in evading combat and gaining opening strike capabilities. That's not to say they should be a master inboth, but rather they should be versatile in both.
Ranger (as a support profession) needs to be versatile. It needs to be able to compliment all combat profession pairings as well as all non-combat profession pairings.