Ranger Archive
Thread: Hey Owen, why not a Ranger applied camouflage buff for us crafters?
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Marsirion
Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:58 pm
#1
Someone suggested this in the shipwright forum and I'm sure it has been proposed before over here . Anyway, both crafters and combatants are at odds about us crafters getting any help from suffering insta-incap because of damage multipliers when you are a level 1 crafter.
Some crafters have suggested toning down the damage multipliers, certifying for crafter only armor ( won't do any good because of damage multipliers), increasing our HAM, PSG (only good for energy weapons).
Combatants, indeed even some crafters have said that we have no business going out on the field, hire bodyguards (although how that would prevent a group of aggro mobs from instacapping a level 1, I don't know), or buy from the market.
This scenario may seem familiar to you and I am assuming that it is one of the arguments put forward as to why Rangers should level.
A year from now if the CU damage multiplier goes as it is then crafters will have a harder time procuring resources thereby increasing their overhead and probably increasing the price of goods. *Shrug* Im sure that will work out fine for us but I think there may be a better solution.
So...
Master Ranger camo:
3 hours for masters
less than 3 hours for less than master
craftable by rangers
breaks if crafter attacks a mob or is attacked by NPC
It will be planet specific (10 planets?)
Planet specific camos can all be applied at the same time
Rangers in their downtime will be at starports giving them more exposure as they advertise their wares:
"Master Ranger Camos! $k for a full10 planetcamo or $k each per planet camo!"
Darn, I miss the doc buffs already...
WildBil2Me
Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:31 pm
#2
I'm not Owen, but I can say this: I'm 50/50 on your suggestion.
I like the idea of getting this camo to work more effectively both on Rangers and on those that Ranger apply it to.
Treating it like a buff though will prove a problem. Alot of what we're seeing in the CU is an attempt to get rid of those sit and buff players who litter the popular starports. Forcing the crafter to group with the Ranger for the duration of the camouflage would be the most likely form coming from a development perspective, but as alot of Ranger's have stated ... we don't like to group with people when only they see the benefit from our skills.
Please understand I'm not flaming your idea. I like it, but I think the most likely implementation will be Ranger giving group members a camouflage pack and then the player's success being based off the Ranger. The buff option doesn't seem to fall in the current Dev conception of the game.
I think what crafters really need is access to really good, strong, defensive droids. Similarly, when was the last time you saw a wild dog hanging out near an oil rig? I think (as I feel should be done for camps as well) when a harvestor is down it should prevent Aggro spawns in its immediate vacinity ... not repel aggro but prevent aggro spawn. Getting to the harvestor should be challenging but doable, working on the harvestor should be totally safe.
Hope I helped some. I really feel for crafters right now!
AgonThalia
Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:48 pm
#3
The second thing about a camo buff that would pose a problem (once again, like WildBill, not flaming, just expanding upon the idea) I do like the idea... however, here would be a problem that would be encounted without a total camo revamp.
If i were to give you a camo buff... 3 hrs, then you go out into tatooine, and the first kreetle you drive by breaks it... it would be pretty annoying if you just spend a bunch of credits for the camo.
Unless, there was a timer on the camo. you get the buff, if it breaks, then there is a 5 or so minute timer where the buff is active again. That might be more appropriate.
once again, the idea is really good... and it should be explored to make the relationship between crafters and rangers more symbiotic
WildBil2Me
Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:50 pm
#4
AgonThalia wrote:
The second thing about a camo buff that would pose a problem (once again, like WildBill, not flaming, just expanding upon the idea) I do like the idea... however, here would be a problem that would be encounted without a total camo revamp.
If i were to give you a camo buff... 3 hrs, then you go out into tatooine, and the first kreetle you drive by breaks it... it would be pretty annoying if you just spend a bunch of credits for the camo.
Unless, there was a timer on the camo. you get the buff, if it breaks, then there is a 5 or so minute timer where the buff is active again. That might be more appropriate.
once again, the idea is really good... and it should be explored to make the relationship between crafters and rangers more symbiotic
Now that's really interesting! Afterall, when you get spotted the camo doesn't come off ... a particular creature just isn't fooled.
Marsirion
Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:53 pm
#5
It would break only if you attack it or if you are detected by an NPC. The 5 minute timer is a good idea though if it does break. It give you a choice on whether going out to a safe spot till your camo comes back or you cna risk it anyway and head for your next survey point/harvester.
Almagill
Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:10 pm
#6
I sort of like the idea, though it'd be nice if they'd just get out existing /conceal ability (using planet specific resources and appliable to players, it is already a buff, just not one that enhances health or %chance success of much)
Am not flaming either, I'm just trying to figure out how this would be different from our existing, and in CU currently borked, cammo skill? If it's simply a case of transfering the ability to make the item to crafters, then I'm against it as I don't see why I should be put in a position of a) having to collect the resources and then b) having to pay to have something made that I already can make.
(I'ts late, I'm tired and am pretty sure I misread something somewhere and its sent me off on the wrong road
)
iirc, the times for buffs are being reduced down to 15/30 mins for high/low power buff, is that about right? In which case, why woul dhte dev's make this one 'automatically reapply' for up to 3hrs if it breaks? Health buffs don't reapply if you die, entertainer buffs are gone when they're gone too.
[confused]
**edit**
Ah, went back and reread.
So...
Master Ranger camo:
3 hours for masters
less than 3 hours for less than master
craftable by rangers
breaks if crafter attacks a mob or is attacked by NPC
It will be planet specific (10 planets ?)
Planet specific camos can all be applied at the same time
Okies, not flaming, but wearing my "What Would Dev's Say" hat...
3hrs for master applied. Buffs are, I am 90% sure being restricted in duration. I can't see any justification for this one being able to last for 3hrs when a health buff burns out in 15/30minutes.
Less time for cammo applied by journeyman Rangers, okay, that seems fair if we're going to work off a timer, but you are effectively conferring a cammo ability level that isn't related to the player's own cammo skill.
Current /conceals are based on the players cammo/mask ability (working from some sort of fixed base level as you can apply it to non-scout ranger types).
The point of cammo is to avoid detection, you would have to keep some %chance of the creature/npc 'spotting' the player and breaking cammo as is currently done for immersion. Only breaking on combat is giving all players an effective 'cloak' against NPC/creatures.
Planet specific. As is. Only thing I'd look for here is for the resource type to be expanded out to any matn, hide and bone, rather than specific types, ie, insect, reptilian, wooly. This would make gathering resources locally more straightforward and encourage players to try cammo again. (Currently you can take longer looking for a specific resource type than the mission would have taken if you just used /mask and ignored cammo)
All ten can be applied at once? What, you can go to Mos Espa, get a full 'pallet' of cammo applied then run off to Dath, Dant and Talus without any reapplication? From an immersion PoV that's not too great. From a data tracking PoV it creates problems.
Currently a player only needs a tag that says they have a conceal on or not. The conceals only work on the specific planet, so a localised tag for the cammo pack is needed.
Doing all ten would mean that the player would need a tag for each cammo type, which would have to be checked on arrival at each planet, the cammo packs would operate on any planet so they would only need a set of tags that showed which cammo's had been applied. In general I think it's adding a lot of data that is unnecessary and gives more opportunities for things to go wrong either server side or client side.
Also, getting all ten cammo applied on Tatooine, then heading off to another planet. Currently travelling by shuttle breaks cammo (probably a database check issue, dunno) but you get your tat cammo on, get it broke by a kreetle, the 5 minute timer kicks in, you travel to Dathomir, does the cammo reset on landing or does it reset after 5 minutes. What if you move to another planet again? (It happens, occaisionally, especially if you are a crafter and traveling from harvester to harvester). I just see a horrible data tracking mess and Dev's runnning sreaming from the building trying to figure out which cammo works where and how and why and what?
Anyhow, it comes back to my original point, why change stuff? Just fix what we've already got and KISS.
Am not flaming either, I'm just trying to figure out how this would be different from our existing, and in CU currently borked, cammo skill? If it's simply a case of transfering the ability to make the item to crafters, then I'm against it as I don't see why I should be put in a position of a) having to collect the resources and then b) having to pay to have something made that I already can make.
(I'ts late, I'm tired and am pretty sure I misread something somewhere and its sent me off on the wrong road
)iirc, the times for buffs are being reduced down to 15/30 mins for high/low power buff, is that about right? In which case, why woul dhte dev's make this one 'automatically reapply' for up to 3hrs if it breaks? Health buffs don't reapply if you die, entertainer buffs are gone when they're gone too.
[confused]
**edit**
Ah, went back and reread.
So...
Master Ranger camo:
3 hours for masters
less than 3 hours for less than master
craftable by rangers
breaks if crafter attacks a mob or is attacked by NPC
It will be planet specific (10 planets ?)
Planet specific camos can all be applied at the same time
Okies, not flaming, but wearing my "What Would Dev's Say" hat...
3hrs for master applied. Buffs are, I am 90% sure being restricted in duration. I can't see any justification for this one being able to last for 3hrs when a health buff burns out in 15/30minutes.
Less time for cammo applied by journeyman Rangers, okay, that seems fair if we're going to work off a timer, but you are effectively conferring a cammo ability level that isn't related to the player's own cammo skill.
Current /conceals are based on the players cammo/mask ability (working from some sort of fixed base level as you can apply it to non-scout ranger types).
The point of cammo is to avoid detection, you would have to keep some %chance of the creature/npc 'spotting' the player and breaking cammo as is currently done for immersion. Only breaking on combat is giving all players an effective 'cloak' against NPC/creatures.
Planet specific. As is. Only thing I'd look for here is for the resource type to be expanded out to any matn, hide and bone, rather than specific types, ie, insect, reptilian, wooly. This would make gathering resources locally more straightforward and encourage players to try cammo again. (Currently you can take longer looking for a specific resource type than the mission would have taken if you just used /mask and ignored cammo)
All ten can be applied at once? What, you can go to Mos Espa, get a full 'pallet' of cammo applied then run off to Dath, Dant and Talus without any reapplication? From an immersion PoV that's not too great. From a data tracking PoV it creates problems.
Currently a player only needs a tag that says they have a conceal on or not. The conceals only work on the specific planet, so a localised tag for the cammo pack is needed.
Doing all ten would mean that the player would need a tag for each cammo type, which would have to be checked on arrival at each planet, the cammo packs would operate on any planet so they would only need a set of tags that showed which cammo's had been applied. In general I think it's adding a lot of data that is unnecessary and gives more opportunities for things to go wrong either server side or client side.
Also, getting all ten cammo applied on Tatooine, then heading off to another planet. Currently travelling by shuttle breaks cammo (probably a database check issue, dunno) but you get your tat cammo on, get it broke by a kreetle, the 5 minute timer kicks in, you travel to Dathomir, does the cammo reset on landing or does it reset after 5 minutes. What if you move to another planet again? (It happens, occaisionally, especially if you are a crafter and traveling from harvester to harvester). I just see a horrible data tracking mess and Dev's runnning sreaming from the building trying to figure out which cammo works where and how and why and what?
Anyhow, it comes back to my original point, why change stuff? Just fix what we've already got and KISS.
Message Edited by Almagill on 04-21-2005 02:31 AM
Marsirion
Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:18 pm
#7
Okies, not flaming, but wearing my "What Would Dev's Say" hat...
3hrs for master applied. Buffs are, I am 90% sure being restricted in duration. I can't see any justification for this one being able to last for 3hrs when a health buff burns out in 15/30minutes.
3hrs for master applied. Buffs are, I am 90% sure being restricted in duration. I can't see any justification for this one being able to last for 3hrs when a health buff burns out in 15/30minutes.
Ok. How about 15/30 for camo buff then?
Less time for cammo applied by journeyman Rangers, okay, that seems fair if we're going to work off a timer, but you are effectively conferring a cammo ability level that isn't related to the player's own cammo skill.
Current /conceals are based on the players cammo/mask ability (working from some sort of fixed base level as you can apply it to non-scout ranger types).
The point of cammo is to avoid detection, you would have to keep some %chance of the creature/npc 'spotting' the player and breaking cammo as is currently done for immersion. Only breaking on combat is giving all players an effective 'cloak' against NPC/creatures.
Less time for cammo applied by journeyman Rangers, okay, that seems fair if we're going to work off a timer, but you are effectively conferring a cammo ability level that isn't related to the player's own cammo skill.
Current /conceals are based on the players cammo/mask ability (working from some sort of fixed base level as you can apply it to non-scout ranger types).
The point of cammo is to avoid detection, you would have to keep some %chance of the creature/npc 'spotting' the player and breaking cammo as is currently done for immersion. Only breaking on combat is giving all players an effective 'cloak' against NPC/creatures.
I enumerated the reasons why crafters would like this skill form rangers in the original paragraph. its either that or give us more HAM like you guys or take out the damage multiplier. Anyway, I also said mobs (creatures) only. NPC will see through camo.
Planet specific. As is. Only thing I'd look for here is for the resource type to be expanded out to any matn, hide and bone, rather than specific types, ie, insect, reptilian, wooly. This would make gathering resources locally more straightforward and encourage players to try cammo again. (Currently you can take longer looking for a specific resource type than the mission would have taken if you just used /mask and ignored cammo)
All ten can be applied at once? What, you can go to Mos Espa, get a full 'pallet' of cammo applied then run off to Dath, Dant and Talus without any reapplication? From an immersion PoV that's not too great. From a data tracking PoV it creates problems.
Planet specific. As is. Only thing I'd look for here is for the resource type to be expanded out to any matn, hide and bone, rather than specific types, ie, insect, reptilian, wooly. This would make gathering resources locally more straightforward and encourage players to try cammo again. (Currently you can take longer looking for a specific resource type than the mission would have taken if you just used /mask and ignored cammo)
All ten can be applied at once? What, you can go to Mos Espa, get a full 'pallet' of cammo applied then run off to Dath, Dant and Talus without any reapplication? From an immersion PoV that's not too great. From a data tracking PoV it creates problems.
Ok. So 3 max is better? Why not 6 then? This is all conjecture so until I hear it from the horses mouth that it will be hard to code then why limit rangers? Med buffs had 6 plus the 3 from entertainer buffs. They don't disappear when you go form planet to planet do they?
Currently a player only needs a tag that says they have a conceal on or not. The conceals only work on the specific planet, so a localised tag for the cammo pack is needed.
Doing all ten would mean that the player would need a tag for each cammo type, which would have to be checked on arrival at each planet, the cammo packs would operate on any planet so they would only need a set of tags that showed which cammo's had been applied. In general I think it's adding a lot of data that is unnecessary and gives more opportunities for things to go wrong either server side or client side.
Also, getting all ten cammo applied on Tatooine, then heading off to another planet. Currently travelling by shuttle breaks cammo (probably a database check issue, dunno) but you get your tat cammo on, get it broke by a kreetle, the 5 minute timer kicks in, you travel to Dathomir, does the cammo reset on landing or does it reset after 5 minutes. What if you move to another planet again? (It happens, occaisionally, especially if you are a crafter and traveling from harvester to harvester). I just see a horrible data tracking mess and Dev's runnning sreaming from the building trying to figure out which cammo works where and how and why and what?
Currently a player only needs a tag that says they have a conceal on or not. The conceals only work on the specific planet, so a localised tag for the cammo pack is needed.
Doing all ten would mean that the player would need a tag for each cammo type, which would have to be checked on arrival at each planet, the cammo packs would operate on any planet so they would only need a set of tags that showed which cammo's had been applied. In general I think it's adding a lot of data that is unnecessary and gives more opportunities for things to go wrong either server side or client side.
Also, getting all ten cammo applied on Tatooine, then heading off to another planet. Currently travelling by shuttle breaks cammo (probably a database check issue, dunno) but you get your tat cammo on, get it broke by a kreetle, the 5 minute timer kicks in, you travel to Dathomir, does the cammo reset on landing or does it reset after 5 minutes. What if you move to another planet again? (It happens, occaisionally, especially if you are a crafter and traveling from harvester to harvester). I just see a horrible data tracking mess and Dev's runnning sreaming from the building trying to figure out which cammo works where and how and why and what?
See med buff analogy.
Anyhow, it comes back to my original point, why change stuff? Just fix what we've already got and KISS.
Anyhow, it comes back to my original point, why change stuff? Just fix what we've already got and KISS.
*shrug* I've been a ranger/tka/crafter at one point. I found mastering ranger pointless as the tracking and harvesting ability can all be done without mastering.
This idea actually came from another ranger in another crafter forum. I thought rangers would be interested to have some part of their skills have more value and at the same time save the crafters a lot of grief since one of our biggest worries post CU is the insta-incap for all low lelvel crafters when surveying, riding their bikes or going out to their harvesters. Believe me when I tell you that this ability would be more valuable to us rather than spamming "hiring bodyguards 100k/hr" at starports or some such. Body guards won't be able to help because by the time they realize that a mob has aggroed a crafter, they would have been insta-incapped anyway.
Judging form the lukewarm reception and the skepticism that I perceive this ability is at the low end of the totempole, I withdraw the suggestion.
Almagill
Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:01 pm
#8
nm
"Human slaves, in an insect nation"
"Human slaves, in an insect nation"
Message Edited by Almagill on 04-22-2005 08:51 AM
SolaasD
Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:02 am
#9
From all information I have seen thus far they will not institute anything like a camo buff.
Your best bet is to make friends with alot of Rangers and try to get them to Accompany you when placing Harvesters etc.
Camoflage is one of those things we Rangers take as being very unique to us. We don't want to see someone with an alt char as a ranger using it to apply "Ranger Camo Buffs" to whoever.
The Current live system of buffs is so very flawed, which is why they are modifying so much. I would however support camoflage being stronger, especially I think that if the Ranger is a Master Ranger then their camo applied to anyone grouped with them should be almost as strong as if they had only applied the camo to themselve.
So with that is Mind if the person who Applies the Camo is a Master Ranger Human (+100 to Camoflage) then the person he applies it to should be +75 to Camoflage as long as the person is grouped with them, out of Group it'd be lower.
I'm really not sure what the Current Multipiler is for Camoflage applied to non rangers though. And if the person having the Camo Applied to them is a Ranger then their skill Mod would override the other Rangers Camo Bonus if it was more then the normal multiplier given by the person applying it.
KaiRaene
Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:25 pm
#10
In EQ2 there was a Sneak ability. It would basically make you invisible like the new /jedicloak and /coverup does. It was based on the Scouts ability with it. So, if you were a level 15 scout anything that conn'd above 15 would have a flashing red arrow on their head saying they will aggro if you get too close. So, the higher the level the better the invisibility. There was also the ability to do it for a group. Initiating combat would break the sneak/invisibility.
I would say eventually scouts/rangers will get this ability. No more crafting camo kits. Why should we? Docs have all kinda things they can do now without having to carry around a ton of items in their packs. This would allow Rangers to play their part in the group leading a bunch of noobs/civilians from A to B. And to get camo'd you will have to be a group member.
I just hope that maskscent/camo are cleary defined come revamp time. Maskscent for creatures and camo for npc's.
Tho, if I start getting spammed tells asking me to camo them so they can go to dath for the good metal spawn there I'm gonna remove my tag.. lol.
Anyone notice that with doc buffs short duration now they are kinda forcing docs to do the combat group thing? I think they are also wanting to get away from the Cnet square spammers - Doc Buffing for 2400 3h15m! 12k! I would be willing to bet that our future camo ability will only be for group members. So, we cant just stand in Cnet camo buffing people for 2k a planet.. lol. The idea is so funny to me.. "Master Ranger camo buffs! 2k per planet! 5k for kassshyk! Form line here! No bank tips!" lol
I would say eventually scouts/rangers will get this ability. No more crafting camo kits. Why should we? Docs have all kinda things they can do now without having to carry around a ton of items in their packs. This would allow Rangers to play their part in the group leading a bunch of noobs/civilians from A to B. And to get camo'd you will have to be a group member.
I just hope that maskscent/camo are cleary defined come revamp time. Maskscent for creatures and camo for npc's.
Tho, if I start getting spammed tells asking me to camo them so they can go to dath for the good metal spawn there I'm gonna remove my tag.. lol.
Anyone notice that with doc buffs short duration now they are kinda forcing docs to do the combat group thing? I think they are also wanting to get away from the Cnet square spammers - Doc Buffing for 2400 3h15m! 12k! I would be willing to bet that our future camo ability will only be for group members. So, we cant just stand in Cnet camo buffing people for 2k a planet.. lol. The idea is so funny to me.. "Master Ranger camo buffs! 2k per planet! 5k for kassshyk! Form line here! No bank tips!" lol
BioEngine
Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:48 pm
#11
We don't get to decide why and why not. The devs do, and so does SOE.
We can only fine tune a proposition for it.
PowerHammer
Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:30 pm
#12
but you see, to camo on tattoine, your going to cover in that light brown sandy desert color, so your wearing that camo. how could you also have say a danttooine camo on, with dark blue, at the same time. Doc buffs don't tie at all to planets. Camo does
Marsirion wrote:
Planet specific. As is. Only thing I'd look for here is for the resource type to be expanded out to any matn, hide and bone, rather than specific types, ie, insect, reptilian, wooly. This would make gathering resources locally more straightforward and encourage players to try cammo again. (Currently you can take longer looking for a specific resource type than the mission would have taken if you just used /mask and ignored cammo)
All ten can be applied at once? What, you can go to Mos Espa, get a full 'pallet' of cammo applied then run off to Dath, Dant and Talus without any reapplication? From an immersion PoV that's not too great. From a data tracking PoV it creates problems.
Ok. So 3 max is better? Why not 6 then? This is all conjecture so until I hear it from the horses mouth that it will be hard to code then why limit rangers? Med buffs had 6 plus the 3 from entertainer buffs. They don't disappear when you go form planet to planet do they?
.
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