Ranger Archive

"So, scouts don't get camo because it starts accumulating at the novice ranger level. Similarly, scouts don't get camps with anything other than basic healing mods, because that starts accumulating at novice ranger. The key here is: Novice Ranger. If someone wants access to those abilities, then they should grind the rest of the scout trees, just like every other ranger out there had to do. The camps available to rangers are, and should remain, unique to the class.If we want to talk about fairness, I find it patently unfair that another class can cherry-pick my hallmark ability without going through the effort. To get my level of camps, I had to master scout first, not just part of it.

This also ties in to what Phenix's post discusses. As I understand it, a generic slot can accommodate all three flavors of module: generic, humanoid, and creature. Additionally, a slot can hold modules from the levels below it. At master level, a squad leader has a Level 4, Generic slot in their camp schematic. By definition, it can hold any module. They may not be able to create the module, but they can use them if created by the appropriate class. So, by default, squad leaders can use ALL the same modules that a ranger can use.Therefore, ranger camps are no longer unique. Am I wrong in that interpratation, NRaas?

Phenix's proposal wasmoving inthe direction that Ialluded toin my last post. That is, giving the elite squad leaders options for turrets, mine fields, and covert detectors only. Squad leadersshould haveaccess to just those options and not the balance of the other suggested modules. Similarly, rangers wouldn't be able to use the squad leader modules. (I would expect that features like creature spawning, advanced healing, BF healing, and pet healingwould stay exclusively ranger options) That would keep squad leaders and rangers completely separate from each other.

I'm sorry if I'm being stubborn about this, but because of the time invested in the class, I feel a bit proprietary about it."

I could not have worded this better if I had tried. I am glad I have at least one supporter in this.

Respectfully,

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NRaas wrote:

"If this change were made, then I think that any SL-made module should make the camp stay up in combat, and only SL-made modules should give this ability."

I think that the Creature OffensiveHide Module should still provide that effect on the Ranger camp side... Unless we have decided to give up the hunting blind concept.

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Oops, I forgot about the Creature Offensive Hide Module...Yes, that too should make a camp stay up in combat. So, in summary my thoughts on a compromise to get this modular camp system supported are:

• Ranger-made Creature Offensive Hide Module should make a camp stay up in combat.


• All Squad Leader-made Modules should make a camp stay up in combat.


• No other modules should make a camp stay up in combat.


• Ranger camps should only be able to take one Squad Leader-made component at most.


• Squad Leader camps should only be able to take one Ranger-made component at most.


• If Squad Leader is given more than one type of camp/fortification, one of their profession disciplines should be changed to require Camp XP instead of Squad Leader XP.


• If the above point is not done, Squad Leaders should just get one Fortification/camp schematic.
  

"All Squad Leader-made Modules should make a camp stay up in combat."

That one is already in the new proposal... Did that last night.

I guess its time to post the next version.

Give me some time to consider the SL vs Ranger issue, I'll have it up sometime tonight.

I just re-read your proposal cuz I am getting a bit confused, and now I understand why we are proposing forts for SL. It makes sense to me that they should get forts along side our forts because it is an extension of their ability to make camps from scout. They can already make and use camps, why not throw them a bone and let them in on our plan (they seem to need a little love). The Humanoid/creature type modules looks like it would work well in keeping the two professions separate and distinct in their abilities.

Its hard for me to wrap my mind around all that information without seeing it acutally in game and functioning, but it seems like we could do a bit more to emphasise the fact that SL forts are meant to be a base of operations from which to launch or defend attacks, while our Ranger camps are meant to be the rest inbetween attacks. They get all the defense and attack mods, we get all the healing and other mods (like crafting stations). To do this, we may want to reword the three categories from Creature, humanoid, generic to literally Squadleader, Ranger, and generic. This way we can move things around that realy deserve to be in the other camps but aren't because of their logical title.

The Entertainer Stage for example makes little sense in the SL forts, and unless I am confused, your system allows them only in their forts. They realy belong only in our camps if it is to make sense. Someone made the point that Elvis was never on the front lines entertaining the troops, he was always back where it was safe.

I also had a great idea for a level 4 Ranger mod that plays on our cammo skill. How about a mod that adds a heuge foliage graphic over the outside of our camp, and instantly adds either /maskscent or /conceal (or some other cool status effect or skill bonus which we can discuss further) to those who are in the camp. I don't know which would work better, to make this mod only effective to the group while they are in camp, or to have it last. maybe it can just be an easier way to apply or refresh /conceal to those in your group, so those people in the group with the ranger get /conceal applied automatically. I see it as being generic because both rangers and SL's could bennefit from this, so applying the /conceal may bring up issues when used in SL forts, but maybe just adding /maskscent to everyone won't be effective enough. One way or another, it would affect the cammo/detectability of those in the camp to those outside the camp.

it would be cool if it hid the radar signatures of those inside the camp, but the module breaks the moment someone leaves camp boundaries, or fires a shot. But that would depend on Thunderheart's answer to the invisibility question. Maybe we can work around that somehow, I don't know.

Basicly I got this idea while on Endor, I found a heuge bush like thing that if I stood in the middle of it, I was completely unseen except for my signature on the radar. I thought how cool it would be if I could somehow use this to my advantage.

This also an extension to the ghile suit concept.

We can call it Camp Concealment or Conceal Encampment.

"it would be cool if it hid the radar signatures of those inside the camp, but the module breaks the moment someone leaves camp boundaries, or fires a shot."

Cool.Camoflauge Netting.

I don't think making these limitations would obviate the module approach at all. For illustration, consider this:

Ranger modules to include:

• medical bay


• small creature offensive hide


• crafting station


• veterinary bay


• hospital bay


• small creature defensive barrier


• large creature defensive field


• creature pheremone emitter


• Entertainment stage


• garage


• evac shuttle

Using NRaas model for scout/ranger camps:

• Novice scout: 1 level 1 slot (1 slot total)


• Survival II:2 level 1 slots (2 slots total)


• Survival IV: 1 level 1 and 1 level 2 slot (2 slots total)


• Novice Ranger: 1 level 1 and 1 level 3 slot (2 slots total)


• Frontiering II: 1 level 2 and 1 level 3 slot (2 slots total)


• Frontiering IV: 2 level 2 and 1 level 3 slot (3 slots total)


• Master Ranger: 2 level 2, 1 level 3, 1 level 4 slot (4 slots total)

At Master level, you still only have 4 slots to use. Yet, even with the limited list above, you have11 modules to draw from. That's still quite a lot of flexibility/combinations to draw from.

What's left for Squad leaders then? Well... they don't have anything now, but the most mundane of camps, so even if they got zip it would be no loss. But, for the sake of arguement, look at what remains:

• small humanoid offensivie parapet


• combat fortification


• covert detector


• small arms emplacement


• large humanoid defensive field


• machine gun nest


• mine field


• rocket launcer nest

Having pretty much the same break out of slots/levels as proposed, there are still only a maximum of 4 slots to fill. That's still a healthy selection, especially in light of what they currently have - nada.

Both lines are still completely different in terms of focus: Creatures/healing/sanctuary vs. combat. Rangers still have the edge in breadth and variety. So IF there's too much groundswell support for this in the squad leader boards to back off the idea of better camps for that class entirely (assuming its posted there as well), you can at least maintain the paradigm. No mixing of class capabilities, yet still the benefit of the module approach.

I do not support the modular camp idea as stated.

First off, it just soundsway too complicated.

Second, from all the modules and functionality, I got the feeling we were becoming a sort of Architect.

Third, when I want a camp, I do not want to have to go through complicated crafting stages (making various parts to make the final product). If I wanted to do that I would have been a serious crafting class.

It would be better to stay with the KISS (keep it simple stupid) philosophy. As is, camps are easy to assemble, easy to use, and provide an valuable service in the field - a healing base - particularly in the wilds of the higher-level less-civilized planets. Lets not screw that up.

I would rather see that the basic functionality of camps be fixed before anything else happens. That means increasing the timerthat camps stay active for higher level camps, and making the field bases quasi permanent (vanish on log out or when recalled, just like a vehicle or mount).

After this, I would like to see new camp concepts introduced, like the fortification, but not as a module. Just as a new item to craft. As for modules, I think the master ranger should get a camp that includes any basic crafting, pet healing, or whatever things that can be done in a city. All in one. No modules.

As for fortifications, I am not in favor of involving squad leaders. Rangers are skills at 'field construction' already, lets not give that up to another class. Lets just expand on that skill so it is more interesting and useful for our class. It would seem to me that Rangers can be viewed as a stealthy vanguard force that comes before the main troops and builds fortifications for the squad leader and her men to run into. Squad leaders dont need the skill. Squad leader development should focus on more group skills since that is how they earn their experience in the first place.

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NRaas wrote:

"They get all the defense and attack mods, we get all the healing and other mods (like crafting stations)."

The idea here would be to set up the definitions so that there would be a little leakage between the two professions.

We get the ability to have some offensive aspects, and they get some healing aspects, but not too much that the line gets blurred in the process.

Right now I have only one of the slots in the advanced camps restricted. Would it work if I further restricted the Level 2 slotsto Creature (Ranger) or Humanoid (SL)?

Perhaps only one of the Level 2slots, and leave the other open to Generic?

I would like to keep the Level 4 slot as it the only one defined and allows both sides to choose a big gun, or an entertainment stage.

Still thinking about it...

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The solution to that may be if we rename and reorganize the module types, so that the more basic health, defensive, and offensive modules be generic level 2 or 3 making it possible for both the professions to reap some bennefits, but the more powerful and defined bonuses be level 3 or 4 speciffic SL or Ranger modules. So the Entertainment stage and Vetrenairy Bay become level 3 or 4 Ranger only mods, but a level 1 or 2 generic module could be created to allow quicker mind health regeneration and added bonus to the effectiveness of pet stims.

Maybe these mods could be used in both types of camps, but the ranger mods used in ranger camps yields the greater benefit and vice versa. So the Entertainment Stage in a ranger camp allows healing of BF, but the same module in the SL fort allows quicker mind health regeneration.

Also, to put a wedge between the two types of camps so that rangers opposed to SL forts may feel more at ease, maybe we could propose that being in a SL fort has the effect of being in battle wether or not you are actually being attacked by someone yet. Now SL camps can't be used to call and change pets, but they do get the cool defensive and offensive bonuses.

Yet another idea to alieve the SL fort issue. Give SL certs to use these camps, but not make them. We make them, they can use them. So we would have to cooperate with them to get their camps made. They make the modules to enhance aspects of our camps, and we make the camps that give them group bonuses in the field.

"Give SL certs to use these camps, but not make them. We make them, they can use them."

That would never get past the Squad Leader veto. They have the right to be as independent as our profession.

Ok, what we are going for here is to restrict the SL and Ranger camps in such a way to make them equally valuable, and yet equally unique.

Yet, a complete seperation of the system would limit the appeal.

One rule change:

• Modules marked Generic can fit into any type slot

Now consider this approach:

• Hunting Camp Kit




• Available at Novice Ranger
  
• One optional Level 1 Generic slot, and One optional Level 3 Creature slot


• High Quality Camp Kit
  
  
  
  • Available at Frontiering II
    
  • One optional Level 2 Generic slot, and One optional Level 3 Creature slot


• Field Base Camp Kit
  
  
  
  • Available at Frontiering IV
    
  • One optional Level 2 Generic slot, one optional Level 2 Creature slot, and one optional Level 3 Creature slot


• High Tech Field Base Camp Kit
  
  
  
  • Available at Master Ranger
    
  • Two optional Level 2 Creature slots, and one optional Level 3 Creature slot, and One optional Level 4 Generic slot

Each camp has a generic slot available to have either another Creature module, or a module available from the SL side. Everything else has to be aCreature/Generic module.

This approach will allow for a single SL (Humanoid) module in each Ranger camp (as long as they match the Level), but allow for more creature modules than an SL camp.

Similiarly the SL version will allow for a single Ranger (Creature) module in each of their camps (as long as the level matches), but allow for more humanoid modules than a Ranger camp.

The generic modules (at the moment):

• Medical Bay (thelow level healing module, not yet differentiated into Vet and Hospital)


• Camoflauge Netting (concealment for the camp works for both creatures and humanoids)


• Crafting Station (changed to generic to allow them in the Field Base schematic)

The current camps are still possible (with the change to the Crafting Station), and they are definitely more distinctive.

Comments?

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NRaas wrote:

Ok, what we are going for here is to restrict the SL and Ranger camps in such a way to make them equally valuable, and yet equally unique.

Yet, a complete seperation of the system would limit the appeal.

One rule change:

• Modules marked Generic can fit into any type slot

* snip *

Comments?

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Well, you can probably guess where I stand on this idea, seeing as how I suggested the "one module from the other profession only" idea, but just to be sure you know, I think this is a fair and workable compromise.