Ranger Archive
Thread: Tracking the Elusive Vision...
Please, this may get lost but i need to post anyway.
Not all Rangers are ranged weapon users, or want to be Para-Military types.
I chose Ranger back when it first went Live after participating since Beta. I am a Master Ranger/TKM. This pretty much uses all my Skills. Please do not make a particular weapon skill as a "Must Have". I know there is a bonus to ranged that I do not use and can live without, but do not force us into a more confineing role.
I also do not participate in any PVP or GCW. I chose my skills because I saw a way to play a Trandoshan that could take on the Beasts of the galaxy tooth and claw up close.
I am all for the Ultimate Outdoorsman as long asthere is a Big Tent to what is considered a "Outdoorsman"
Sincerely,
Mangle
Basically, I think the Outdoorsman works great. We hunt and kill, but we waste resources when we harvest only one thing. We can see what is around us, but we lack the ability to track one of those paths. We can set up bases that would clearly require a foundation, but they poof when we enter combat or leave them for a short while.
YOu all know what I am talking about...
Another thing I would like for the /track command is a message to the player(if its a player we are tracking) notifying him that he is being tracked. Imagine being out in the wilderness of Endor, and seeing a message "You are being stalked by a Ranger" over and over on your screen. But you have no clue where he is, or who he is. Then you see a white dot on your radar. The next thing you see is the cloning option box. This is just one use of the /track command, with a little camo applied: susprise attacks.
Creatures
- let us use pets lvl 20
And with my Combat Ranger Attack, I meant, that it doesnt matter what kind of weapon the ranger uses. If i have a pistol in my hand and I use the combat ranger attack, the shot will be +400% of the usually hit. If i am a Teras Kasi, my hit will be 400% of the usually hit. But there is no cost in HAM. This combat attack should be the ranger attack, which makes us to the ultimate creature hunter.
Elusive vision you say...
I couldn't agree more.
With no marksman or brawler pre-req, the ranger is not a fighter. Creature hunter or not, combat profession hunt easier then us.
With no artisan pre-req, we aren't suppose to be crafter either. Yet 2 of our lines include that.
So, what is a ranger? A guy that work well outside, and that helps others do the same. Aharvester, camper, trapper, that walk fast.
But then, the scout already does all that. If you wanna work more with creature, CH do that. To help others more, SL do that.
There is not much role left that the scout doesn't already fill. Reminds me a lot of Doctors. Master medic heal well, why go doctor? For buffs and revive. Can the ranger expose as usefull skills.?
Here are roles i think are not filled elsewhere by professions, and that i think the ranger should do:
1- Outdoor protector/buffer: A ranger will help a fellow player survive out there, that means an effective conceal. Conceal is a buff, and should compare in utility to doctor buffs, or smuggler spice. Right now, people pay 6k for full doc buffs, 500 cr for a Muon gold shot, and don't give a rat about conceal. /ponders.
2- Crowd Controller: The trap line could provide SWG with a crowd controller. Have long lasting (more then 5 sec please) sleep, root, and lure traps. Speaking of traps, please, let us experiment to increase stack size.
3- Nature Harvester: The scout's ability should reach it's peak here, with the ranger able to harvest nature to a maximum: Bone, Hides, Meat, Milk, Horn, Fish, Mollusk, Crustacian, Eggs, Honey, Glands, Bile. Also, foraging at our level should give stacked items (like 3-4 melons at master, stacked)
4- A haven outdoor: A good ranger can do without cities. The camp improvement have already been talked about, but i wanna stretch the importance of a terminal in the camp. With the way the spawn work in SWG (things don't spawn if no one is there to see it), the tracking system will always be broken. Spawns are dynamic and you can't track a thing that is not generated. That's why a mission terminal could bolster our creature-finding ability, what better way to get a Bantha then to spawn a lair? Just makesome Ranger Missions Terminals in the HTFB. They have: less pay-off, and include some rare creature spawns, depending on the region you hunt. I always felt the ranger should be THE guy to find a Krayt, or make it spawn.
NRaas wrote:
This suggestion is as old as the /conceal command itself...
- Yet no one has defined a process to my satisfaction which would not allow for a client hack to bypass the radar restriction.
Then don't show at all, don't even send the packets to the client until the first shot is fired. Try to hack that, I dare you 
.
And this is where we part ways. For 140 skill points I submit this is balance in and of itself. If we can't fight better (due to the skill point drain) then by god they better let us hide better. Maybe not in a city, but certanly out side of one.
"Keeping the camo kits working on NPCs is also a help in PvP in that it lets a ranger and/or his group sneak past those pesky imp/rebel patrols."
That in itself is a chief balance issue that may have swayed the development team to abandon the idea in the first place...
- There are other proposals in the SotP regarding reduced Chance-to-Hit while combating Humanoids that attempt to remove that issue.
They should only disappearwhen I tell them too, or when I log. ( or some other time limit is reached to prevent camp cities from forming.) Maybe they could degrade with every storm that passes through the area. I don't know.
Because tent cities are for the new gypsy hybrid class 
I have a little history lesson if anyone is interested in where the term 'Ranger'even started and why the modern United States military held the term for one of theirelite fighting forces. The term 'Ranger'was solidified in the French/Indian wars by a unite called 'RogersRangers.' They were a group of fighters that specialized in stealth and guerilla tactics. They lived off the land, moved unseen, and set ambushes for their enemies as opposed to fighting them head on. They were all crack shots laying much of the ground work for modern snipers, as well as good at more up close and personal combat. They learned all this from none other then the natives to the america's. They were universally feared by any enemy units traveling through wild county, although were not given a second thought once inside a city. They were known to show up in the most miserable of enviroments, places the ran normal men at arms ragged, in good spirits, fully rested healed, ready to fight. They largely became the boogy men of the wilderness in that war. They were so successful that the modern united states army has taken the term Rangerand focused its most elite soldiers into this sort of training. That is a simple history lesson, there is much more detail and I am sure the info is readily available for anyone that wants to learn more.
I believe that these men fall fully within the ultimate outdoorsmen vision. We can take this little lesson in history and make it more creature-ized if we want, but we should not lose all sense of PvP. We spend far, far to many points just to make it to this profession, much less master it to be totally PvEoriented. For having to master another profession to get to it, we should be a good balance of both.
I have one simple addition to what has already been suggested for changes. I believe that the dev's said something about never removing us from radar because of the targeting system. It seems stupid to me to make a targeting system based on radar, but hey, I am not a programmer so what do I know. So we will never be allowed to ambush people, thus leaving out a huge element to war, much less a GCW. My suggestion is this: A camp, or camp component if modular camps are the thing of the future, that removes everyone in it from the radar. This camp disbands immediately once anyone hostile to the people in it breach the 64 meter mark. This has huge PvPpotential in and of itself, and would make the Ranger very desirable in some, and I say some, PvPscenario's.
I believe the ranger should be very self sufficient, therefore should have some of many different classes skills, I like the idea of being able to control lvl 30 pets (though it must not stack with the CH max level). Also I think the ranger should be given limited healing abilities in the form of poultices and balms; natural cures made from plants and animals without technology - these would perhaps be slow acting, basically increasing regeneration whilst in a camp so that combat downtime is reduced when soloing or with a group without a medic.
I think everyone agrees that field base or above should not dispand when in combat - it should stay the full duration of 55 mins (or however long it is) or until we dispand it (or until we build another camp elsewhere). It should do a good job of repelling creatures that have not been attacked - meaning creatures will not aggro on players within the camp perimeter.
We need at least a few traps that can affect NPC's if not players. Why would a tranquilizer dart not work on a human?!
Not sure I have any other good ideas. There's been a few others I like here, but we have to remember we can't make the ranger into the super player or you'll have 10 master rangers in every group whilst all the other professions scream nerf. I for one like to be one of the rarer professions on a server.
35k camping xp to master ranger! It's close -I can smell it!
NRaas wrote:
"I sure hope the squad leaders don't stumble upon the highlighted camp"
And you have hit a primary issue...
- Our vision can not impede too far into any of the other professions, lest we risk losing any possibility of having it realized.
The following profession derive from Scout:
- Ranger
- Bounty Hunter
- Squad Leader
- Creature Handler
Because of this relationship, we are forced to concede certain aspects of the game system to other professions.
- Combat related encampments should fall into the Squad Leader profession.
- Bounty Hunter should be provided their due with regards to humanoid combat advantages (and yes, some form of traps)
Our profession directs us downa far more creature-centric path and that is what will keep us from crashing headlong into another profession's arena.
I still do not think it should be "to the exclusion of" in all cases. What of a Ranger/CH? would there not be a case here for a stackable bonus? Wookies get bonuses in CH, I feel a Ranger should as well, and a Ranger-Wookie should be the ultimate CH. Consider they already stack things in other professions for BH as it is now. There should ether be a favored hunting weapon (I like Rifle, they don't have a profession that helps them) or a special weapon that helps hunt and defeat a CH in PvP.
I could see a SQ/Ranger (although, not a whole lotta SP left there for combate, that should be fixed) making a HTFB and fortifying it in the way described. In fact, a group with both should also be able to do this. If you want to split off the functions, then let them compliment each other when theygroup together.
Now this is grouping!
Again, our function in the pantheon of "professions" should be stealth (in the wild) primarily, and income via hunting secondarily. Tracking humans has been a sore spot for BH but remember, we can't do that across the galaxy like they can. Perhaps to placate them a bit we should not allow that in cities. Tracking your footprint is different from Investigation (which they need to fix, btw). I don't see this as an "encroachment" on other professions.
I also feel that perhaps if they have an aversion to some of these skills, then allow some skills to be a tad cheaper (reduce the SP requirements) after mastering it to allow you to buy these functions. For example, a MBH should be able to buy any Marksman and up and any Brawler and up cheaper. Same with M. Comando and M. SL. M ranger could perhaps buy a marksman and a CH easier, or not make it Marskman and pick something related, maybe artisan on survey line only or something that does relate. I could see other combo's here, MCH buying Ranger easier MSL buying Ranger easier and vice versa, this would take some carefull thinking first. Dunno...
Some things I do know (time for the bullets!):
- Conceal has to work on NPC. Sorry devs, but you will be loosing M.Rangers over that one. Maybe not me, but thenI am a bit silly
- Ranger traps line seems a bit weak. Very weak. More or better traps are needed or make it a different line. It tends to be the FIRST thing that is bought back.
- Camps need help. Make them last and or allow more uses for them. You can debate the uses but more uses they need. The should at least repel aggressives. If this is a problem with balance, then auto-peace when in one, unless a Squad Leader commands the group to attack.
- Master Ranger needs to have a point to it. A prime example is Rifleman. There is a significant reason to get and keep MRM, speed and accuracy jump greatly.Alot of other professions would do well by this example... they just fixed CH this way.
Thank you. I was just wondering how the TKA Rangers (and other melee profs) felt about all the ranged attack bonuses being thrown around (I think the critical hit bonus would apply to both ranged and melee, and therefore works). Keep in mind we are working on the direction to go as well as individual ideas. Unfortunately the majority will rule here, so the para-military aspect may get more attention since many people want to be Antarian Rangers. I think that the point of Rangers onlywanting to be called Antarian Rangers becasue Ranger is in the title is 100% true, BUT that we should not focus on that becuase all of the literature I have seen says that ARs are all professions and the grouping of the various professions are what are able to aid the Jedi.
Tenaxacis wrote:
Not all Rangers are ranged weapon users, or want to be Para-Military types.
Sincerely,
Mangle
I don't think creature handling is what the devs meant by "creature" profession....
....HOWEVER....
if you insist that Rangers should be able to control creatures, then you should at least be fair about it, and propose stacking the same skillmod that the CH's use, nota different skillmod altogether.
Remember, controlling creatures is the ONLY thing that CH's have going for them... Rangers get all kinds of other bonuses and abilities (terrain negotation, maskscent, camo, creature knowledge, harvesting, traps, camps, tracking, etc). If the tame level skillmodsdidn't stack then, people would just be a Ranger instead for all the other goodies.
If Rangers got an additional 20 pet levels, then my MCH/Ranger max pet levels could go from 70 to 90, then that would be great, but I just don't thinkyou are going to be able to get any additional pet levels without stepping on someone else's toes. By "creature" profession, I think we mean "creaturePvE", not "creature handling".
(see my postabove if you want my opinion onthe "elusive vision" question)
I just want to add my support for the post Klif_Hangar made. I agree with it 100%
I would just like to add a few things to it how ever that I would like to see creature damage mitigation included as a part of the ranger class, and more creature to hit, creature critical hitand creature dodge bonuses.
I think it is very "in character" of a ranger class to be to havefast reactions, being more capable of simply not being hit rather than activly be tough and resistant. To that end I would expect to seemultiple dodge bonus distributed through out the whole of the ranger class (novice ranger getting a +10 dodge, then all level 1 skills giving +1 level 2 skill's +2, level 3 skills +3 and level 4 skills +4. Master ranger giving a +10 for a total of +60 dodge skill.
In an effort to make the ranger class this "ultimate creature hunter" these are the other changes I would like to see made. All these arein addition to the "state of the profession" list, or in some cases a suggestion where I would expect to see cirtian things from that list enter the line's.
Within the tracking line atTracking 1, I would expect to see creature/melee damage mitigation 1 andat Tracking 3, melee/creature Damage Mitigation 2.There should beat least a +10 inEACH box for creature to hit.At tracking 3,the allowance of 2 resourcesto be extracted from killed animals.
Under the Trapping line (as well as a multitude of constructable traps as suggested) I would expect to see a slight bonus to resistance to Stun, Disease and Posture Change (say +25 ~ 35) Along with some form of constuctable Bow that increated the "throwing range" of cirtian traps types (ie those that you made with a shaft and flight section). At Level 4 atype of snare/harvester that would be able to harvest meat, bone OR skin for a day maximum should become available.
Under the Camping skill I would expect to see access to a new line "stims" that would be equivilent to stim A's as well as a health and wound A' equivelent stim makable from foraged foodstuffs and water.I would also like to see a "buff" type food stuff that is made from foraged vegtables that allows for a better "meal" to be prepared roughly equivilent to a NOVICE chef's capabilitys. And finally the ability to treat bleeding at level 4, with an appropriatly createable bandage..
Under Wayfaring I would expect to see the addition of the possibility of a critical hit on creatures that are unaware of your presence. I would expect the chance to increase with level where by as a master ranger I would have about a 75% chance of doing something either crippling to the creature (masive secondarry stat damage ?compleate removal of access to special attacks ?) or massive damage (IE: it might kill a roba out right, but in comparison a krayt dragon would just get annoied and stand on you.) such an attack would instantly break any mask or camo you had up against the creature however thus preventing you from continually perfoming such a thing, or straight out simply preventing anyonefrom ATTEMPTING more than one such attack against any one creature.
I would like to see some _small_ amount of "toughness" included at wayfareing box 2, 4 and possibly master ranger (+5,+5,+10 ?). A person who spends a lot of time exposed to the elements can tend to take on a more "rugged" appearance, throughtoughening skin (multitudes of scratches, scrapes and exposure to the environment can change you) you'll never be a TKA, but some small damage resistance I think is very in character)
At Master Ranger, I would now actually consider things such as giving increased maximum damage, the full 75% on criticals, improved foodstuffs,+10 bonus on wound healing, +20 bonus on health healing, recovery of all resources on a creature, the "Ranger Cabin" and Traps that work on NPC's Humanoid types, creature/melee mitigation 3.
and finally, One thing I want to finish on is the hunting people thing.
Just cos I can track people and conceal from them.. doesn't mean I've got 3 tree's devoted to weapon skills to actually kill them... even if I can throw traps at them ... it's no substitute for BH pistol/carbine or the fullpistoleer/rifleman elite class. it's a choise .. do I stun him with a trap ? or do I just use legshot 1/2.. one does damage .. the other doesn't .. and I don't have to stand still for legshot 1/2
if anything .. ranger's need to have the ability to use there traps on people.. it would make a clear distinction between the scout and ranger class, something sadly lacking in there current incarnations.
Exactly. I don't want creature control, per se, but a bonus that still requires you to buy CH to realize it. I could maybe see the non-CH level go up slightly perhaps, but I would not be against gettting nadda till you actually buy CH. In other ways, I could see other professions getting bonuses from Ranger, just not the actual use or benifit till you buy the said profession itself. This would be a wonderful way of building a better charactor and overall "profession" but using Ranger to enhance it AND I might add be well within all these concepts. If you want a particular type of Ranger, simply pick the appropriate side profession. I feel the whole profession system had this in mind in the first place. I don't feel this is implimented as it should be atm, but a little tweak or twocould get us there.
CavemanGamer wrote:
...snip...
if you insist that Rangers should be able to control creatures, then you should at least be fair about it, and propose stacking the same skillmod that the CH's use, nota different skillmod altogether.
...snip...