Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
Xix13
Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:18 pm
#40
I just got a new toon a little over a month ago and made him a MRifles/MRanger Bothan. Did it without a point of respec too. I really love the idea of merging SL and Ranger. I've always wanted to do a Squad Leader, and had about half of it on my commando for awhile pre-CU. Groups back then really liked the idea of having a SL with them. I had planned that the 2nd of my 3 FS unlocks would be a SL, but it would be perfect if my current Ranger had SL merged into him.
The 2 professions are very interesting to play, but with most people having less than 5 accounts (lol!), they don't get a lot of folks because they just don't have the strengths needed to survive in SWG or to FS grind to Jedi, etc. Merging them together would make a VERY strong profession that would draw many more people to it as a complement to a combat skill. I hope that this Pathfinder-type profession gets some serious work from SOE. It would bring a lot of excitement back to professions that are currently specialized at best and ignored at worst.
WildBil2Me
Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:20 pm
#41
I wish I had two more arms so I could give this idea four thumbs down!
seriously... while we're at it why don't we merge EQ2 and SWG to, uh, form a, uh...
nevermind.
WildBil2Me
Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:22 pm
#42
All joking aside...
I think there are much better smarter ways to handle this without taking two professions with a great deal of potential and squeezing them into one box. If the future of SWG were limited to the next six months and there was no hope of seeing the great ideas produced by both the SLs and the Rangers put into motion you might convince me this was a decent plan... right now I think its not a good idea and reeks of a quick fix.
KyeAshke
Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:31 pm
#43
Two things:
1) This was only vaguely mention in a completely non-professional environment - nothing may come of it. We could be reading far too much into things.
2) If they did merge the two professions, a completely merge is the only thing that is worthy, and if this happens then neither side will lose anything, what so ever. You can still play the lone ranger if you want, it would just provide some flexibility if you had to group. You could still play the squad sergeant if you want, but it would expand on the abilities of a squad leader - call it advanced environmental training.
1) This was only vaguely mention in a completely non-professional environment - nothing may come of it. We could be reading far too much into things.
2) If they did merge the two professions, a completely merge is the only thing that is worthy, and if this happens then neither side will lose anything, what so ever. You can still play the lone ranger if you want, it would just provide some flexibility if you had to group. You could still play the squad sergeant if you want, but it would expand on the abilities of a squad leader - call it advanced environmental training.
YT-2000
Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:40 pm
#44
Nemo0 wrote:
At some level, this becomes the same argument as trying to combine Ranger and CH or Ranger and BH. There are many parallels between the professions but they all focus on a different style of play.
I agree. It doesn't take long to find many other professions which have parallels with Ranger:
Tracking -> Bounty Hunter
Creature knowledge -> Creature Handler
Camo -> Rifleman
However, this doesn't necessarily mean that a merge with SL would be a bad idea. One thing that would have to be ensured is, as you pointed out, the style of play for each profession does not change. I like Owen's idea where you have Pathfinding + Survival (Ranger) and Leadership + Fortifications (Squad Leader). Therefore the same playstyles of each profession would still be obtainable. It's a similar situation now where Ranger is divided into Hunters, Trackers and Survivalists (among other derivatives).
But for now I think I'll just wait until / if we hear more on the subject.
Owen-Lars
Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:47 pm
#45
I think thereis4 options:
1: Merge the professions and just fix a couple of bugs
2: Merge the professions then revamp the new one (add new skills, fix bugs etc)
3:Keep 2seperate professions and give them 2 seperate revamps
4: Because i missednumber 4 last time around
Personally i think if the revamps will hit home and really sort each of the professions out then go for 3, but then again with sony's track record and the fact quick and easy seems to be more important than refined and quality i have my doubts.
If the revamps wont hit home and wont address our issues then combining the professions thenrevamping this new one would work as it would give us a large base of broken skills to fix and be supplimented by a few other skills.
Like Drak im on the fense but it should all depend on how far the dev team are willing to commit to our revamps.
Omegaplex
Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:53 pm
#46
I vote 3, hands-down.
I believe Ranger should be the ultimate outdoorsman - the soloist profession in the game. Likewise, Squad Leader is the uber team player, who thrives in an environment surrounded by others.
If a player wants both of those worlds - the 'ultimate outdoorsman combat leader' type of character some have postulated - then they should have to buy both Ranger and Squad Leader.
BUT, that would demand both have a large array of unique and desirable abilities to make purchasing both worthwhile. As they sit right now, the thought of Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader is rediculous because both are so broken. So I can understand people wanting to see them combined, but broken x2 is still just broken.
They need to give each a distinct and separate revamp from the ground up. That way the solo players can thrive as Rangers, the team guys can thrive as Squad Leaders, and the people who want a character who has both can buy both since both would be useful and tenable.
My 2c.
Kinshi
Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:12 pm
#47
I understand the reasoning behind NOT wanting this from some, BUT the reality is plain to see imho.
We are looking at being # 2 and 3 respectively in line for e Revamp AFTER SMuggler, which has taken 2 years to come, and will be dribbled to those players over the course of multiple Publishes. DO you reallly, REALLY want to wait and have little to nothing done for a indeterminite period of time?
Thats the harsh reality here....because having 3 whole professions revamped in a timely manner is as likely as George Lucas publically admitting Jar-Jar was a bad idea. Im sorry, I do not beleive Rangers or Squad Leaders are going to see their revamps, and if by some miracle they do happen they arent coming utill SMuggler is done, and that, if it happens would not be done util this fall at the earliest.
Are you really willing to wait until next year for significant, useful changes to be made? Do you want to linger around and watch more and more of our already low numbers change professions?
Ranger and SL are the 2 least used profession in the game (not counting Image Designers), Squad Leaders numbers are probably even lower than they seem if you cut out all the solo base-buster templates.
If we DONT join up, then we are going sit, and rot separate and borked just the same as we are now.
People, our respective numbers for our professsions are NOT growing and if we wait around in false hopes for the shangri-la of the 'revamp' , all we are going to be in the end is a small, bitter group of people. This presents a REAL chance to have significant change for the better for all Rangers & SLs.
I would rather we merge our professions and drive a unified profession forward..a unified profession has a much better chance of bringing new people to the profession and if our numbers as a profession grow to be on par with the more popular ones.then we become a significant demographic for SOE to cater to.
Folks, I think you need to see a bigger picture here than indvidual skill points and invidual ideas of what the professions should be and seriously consider that in order to acheive the most good for all and consider the factors that motivate SOE to make changes to the game.
We all have idealistic views of what we want in our professions but I think we have a unique opportunity here to have a set of positive changes that could come a LOT sooner than separate revamps (and face it if Ranger gets Revamped, SL gets revamped because we share Novice Scout 0004.
I agree that for current SLs, a increased SP cost as things stand now is unapealling, which is why any intellegent propasal to SOE for this change should include more functionality in the Ranger skillset to make the added SP worth it to all.
We are looking at being # 2 and 3 respectively in line for e Revamp AFTER SMuggler, which has taken 2 years to come, and will be dribbled to those players over the course of multiple Publishes. DO you reallly, REALLY want to wait and have little to nothing done for a indeterminite period of time?
Thats the harsh reality here....because having 3 whole professions revamped in a timely manner is as likely as George Lucas publically admitting Jar-Jar was a bad idea. Im sorry, I do not beleive Rangers or Squad Leaders are going to see their revamps, and if by some miracle they do happen they arent coming utill SMuggler is done, and that, if it happens would not be done util this fall at the earliest.
Are you really willing to wait until next year for significant, useful changes to be made? Do you want to linger around and watch more and more of our already low numbers change professions?
Ranger and SL are the 2 least used profession in the game (not counting Image Designers), Squad Leaders numbers are probably even lower than they seem if you cut out all the solo base-buster templates.
If we DONT join up, then we are going sit, and rot separate and borked just the same as we are now.
People, our respective numbers for our professsions are NOT growing and if we wait around in false hopes for the shangri-la of the 'revamp' , all we are going to be in the end is a small, bitter group of people. This presents a REAL chance to have significant change for the better for all Rangers & SLs.
I would rather we merge our professions and drive a unified profession forward..a unified profession has a much better chance of bringing new people to the profession and if our numbers as a profession grow to be on par with the more popular ones.then we become a significant demographic for SOE to cater to.
Folks, I think you need to see a bigger picture here than indvidual skill points and invidual ideas of what the professions should be and seriously consider that in order to acheive the most good for all and consider the factors that motivate SOE to make changes to the game.
We all have idealistic views of what we want in our professions but I think we have a unique opportunity here to have a set of positive changes that could come a LOT sooner than separate revamps (and face it if Ranger gets Revamped, SL gets revamped because we share Novice Scout 0004.
I agree that for current SLs, a increased SP cost as things stand now is unapealling, which is why any intellegent propasal to SOE for this change should include more functionality in the Ranger skillset to make the added SP worth it to all.
Bottom line is I dont think the profession revamps will happen, and if we get anything it certainly wont be from the ground up. From SOE dev persepctive it would be easier to take Ranger & SL, merge them, add new features to the merged profession and call it good rather than undertaking two totally separate and eually as large tasks.
Personally I think this is the ONLY realistic major change either profession can expect. I want to be wrong, but I am tired of playing the waiting game and would rather face the reality of out situation head on, instead of betting on seperate but equal revamps.
Kinshi
Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:16 pm
#48
PS.. and considering how many of you hated the CU, do you really want to bet on 'revamps'? Frankly, a 'revamp' is more likely to drastically change the way we play in ways you probably wont wind up liking due bugs and unfinished features.
The solution I put forward lets us continue to play the way we like to play while expanding out options SIGNIFICANTLY wit the smallest amount of risk.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:50 pm
#49
After reading through a lot of the pro- and cons, I've decided not to take any stance yet, but I'm slightly off to the "against" of the proposal.
Why?
a) It's FanFest talk. It's held to keep some kind of "we're the nice guys" image up to the customer base who has been <self-censored> over and over in the past.
b) Skillpoint wise it's a no-goner: both sides (most likely) need to addnewtrees,from a base profession (for SL 3 more scout trees, for ranger, 1 more marksman tree).
c) As it currently is, for all the sp ranger takes, it will not be sufficient enough skillwise/abilitywise to make the current SL guys happy NEEDING to take up those scout trees. Sure, if all the Ranger stuff get fixed, as we proposed many times, then it won't be needed at all, since Ranger then on itself would be viable.
d) Some of the SL stuff could come in nicely for a Ranger, since the base of it is there already; so with SOE trackrecord, they migh even think, why just don't scrap SL (note: I do not want that!) and move the group bonusses to the Ranger....
e) As a "combined" profession what armor would we get? The whole naming is choosen wrong, as Ranger we have Battle, SL has Assault. But what we do (what looks like it), is Recon! To me, for RP pov, that's a dumberror on SOE's part.
I did try to think of some positive notes, but I can't see any. Again, SOE's record shows over and over again, adding 1+1 <> 2! (old swg + eq2 ui + wow = borked CURB, which we are still beta testing). In the end, my sincere believe is we will wind up with 1 profession that is even more borked then either of the two seperate professions is now.
Leafgreen
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:06 pm
#50
The two have different armors for a reason. One is a group leader - the other is mostly a solo class (I did a post to find that out, remember?). One is a pathfinder, one is a commander. One is a hunter, the other an assault tactician. One deals mostly with animals, the other deals with players.
Sure you can chop off dead skills, combine them, and make a class that has working skills (maybe, look at their track record) but what the heck type of class will it be? It won't be leader or a pathfinding class, it'll just be a hybrid monster. Then the people that used to be rangers and squad leaders will be angry, the class will be bugged, and it won't have any type of a sense of itself. A broken ranger has a lifestyle, a broken squad leader does too. What will the hybrid monster have?
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:15 pm
#51
Leafgreen wrote:
A broken ranger has a lifestyle, a broken squad leader does too. What will the hybrid monster have?
A broken lifestyle? Would fit tho! 
Gray03
Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:16 pm
#52
"we will wind up with 1 profession that is even more borked then either of the two seperate professions is now." While I understand the sentiment, I cannot aggree. Right now, you have NOTHING. There is simply nothing in ranger that merits the skillpoint investment from a gameplay standpoint. (Roleplaying, sure - it kills me how useless ranger is) So, right now everyone who isn't basing the decision on roleplaying elements has abandoned ranger. Squad leader is a little better off, it has the base busting aspects, some decent stat mods and proff specific weapons - but it still it is still basically a dabblers spot, snag a line or two to boost some other double mastery template, aside from that not SL isn't a wise choice gameplay wise either..so you have nothing to lose.
Given the choice of gambling on a merger sooner or seperate revamps later, I know which seems more likely.
For those with short memories, I can see the following scenario: (total speculation based on previous "responses" and revamps)
Summer '05 - devs work on bug squishing from CU and planetary updates (already promised), smuggler revamp slips in here in dribs and drabs.
Fall '05 - endless bug squishing from earlier changes, new Jedi or JtLcontent and the ramp up for "Hoth" or whatever they call the next expansion hits
Winter '05 - finalization and launch of Hoth sucks up nearly all dev resources
Spring '06 - more bug squishing and new Jedi/JtL content + GCW revamp
Summer '06 - Squad leader revamp gets stuffed in hastily before work on a new expansion.
etc you get the idea - sometime around Fall '06 the ranger revamp might get started. (No promises the merger idea would be significantly faster, but it might least launch by summer '06)