Ranger Archive
Thread: Modular Camp V4...
Here's the main distinction: Rangers have an entire skill line that requires them to get better at making and using camps, and that allows them to build better camps. Squad Leaders don't. Rangers focus on camps, Squad Leaders don't. I think it makes very little sense for the SL profession to have more than one or two other kinds of camps that are SL-specific. Otherwise we're just giving out unearned abilities, and detracting from a profession that actually works at it."
Well, SL is getting a revamp. SL has the prereq of survival IV so camp building and deploying isn't out of the blue. Wouldn't care too much if they added a line that had camp xp to SL. I think NRaas proposal is awesome in its scope. And I think that by including SL and Scouts (Scouts aren't rangers either) in this proposal he garners more player support.
I had made some comments regarding several of the issues noted above, such as additional space requirements, complexity, and uniqueness. If we assume that the traps suggested in the treatise are added as well as the modules, we'll spend a fair amount of energy just managing inventory. Imagine, if you are a master ranger and novice artisan, you'd be up to your eyeballs just in tools and parts. Yes, you could pre-build camps prior to going out, but then, we are forced to sacrifice the very flexibility that the modules are supposed to bring as a result of inventory limitations. Seems to defeat some of the purpose.
I also think simplicity is better. I see no advantage in making systems complex, just for complexity's sake. If you took the functionality of the modules and simply made them a function of the camp, you'd get the benefit of the new stuff without the burden of a dozen additional parts. Doing this would also make the issue of uniqueness a non-problem. SL's wouldn't be able to build ranger type camps by default.
That being said, I also recognize that there's a benefit in getting suggestions in front of the developers sooner rather than later. In fact, I'd vote for submitting the proposal as is not later than monday morning. While I have some issues with the implementation aspects of the proposal, I'm pretty much in agreement with the functionality being suggested. Given the choice of having a fussy implementation and getting it by March, versus getting an elegant and simple implementation but not getting it till September, I'll gladly take the former.
As long as the functionality of the suggested modifications are solid, I think we can put the mechanics of the mods on a back burner. There's nothing that says we can't keep discussing the implementation parts after the proposal is submitted. I'm fairly certain that the devs won't take the prop lock-stock-and-barrel without mods. In fact, I think I'd crap a pickle on the spot if they did.
So, NRaas, as they used to say in DAOC, MOC PBAOE GOGOGO! Submit away. I see almost no disagreement on the types of functions the modular camps offer. We're starting to hit circular arguements regarding the mechanics now. I don't think there's much hope of bringing that down to a universally acceptable consensus any time soon.
"we are forced to sacrifice the very flexibility that the modules are supposed to bring as a result of inventory limitations."
The modules provide the flexibility to the player who knows how best to use them. It would be a challenge in the game to ensure that before leaving home a player would know which premade camps to take with him.
The same goes with traps... A player would need to either sacrifice carrying all the types of traps available, or have to purchase crates of traps in order to cut down on inventory requirements.
A Ranger who knows his stuff when it comes to preparing for a trip would be in far higher demand than a less skilled player who fails to bring the correct camp modules, or forgets his tranquilizers at home.
The one qualm I have there, NRaas, is that it forces the outdoorsman back to town to get those modules. A master of the wild should be able to go on long trips without needing to plan every single camp ahead of time.
NRaas wrote:
A Ranger who knows his stuff when it comes to preparing for a trip would be in far higher demand than a less skilled player who fails to bring the correct camp modules, or forgets his tranquilizers at home.
"A master of the wild should be able to go on long trips without needing to plan every single camp ahead of time."
If its a long trip with a purpose then the skilled Ranger would take what he needs with him before leaving.
If its a long trip with no specific destination, then the skilled Ranger would make what he needs while out in the wilds and make do with the less effective modules.
I believe the system laid out allows a Ranger the ability to create all the low level versions of our modules. Everything else requires someone else to make them, and in that case, a crate would be in order.
While this may be an ambitious plan, and perhaps unrealistic from the publish point of view, it does show we are at least making the effort. Many professions just complain constantly, we are, at least making suggestions and on the whole compromises are made and ideas accepted and put forward. This idea just allows the devs to see how much potential there is out there, and if they are so keen on group efforts, this is one of those things that certianly would require one.
Keep up the good work and don't be discouraged by any negativity, be it from players or developers. Hell, I don't always agree with the changes at first, because of my own personal views on what a ranger should be, however I generally agree with them in principal and once I see past my own preconceptions, I'm able to realise that there are many excellent ideas out there that I would very much like to see implemented.
Regards,
Gov
Bihlbo wrote:
You're a master CH and a master Ranger? Wow, how's that working out for ya? Bet that's a challenge.
Works just fine for me. I am also a 1/0/0/1 Rifleman and I have 4/0/0/1 in Marksman, I am now out of points.
The camo ability and shooting from prone allows me to get a few shots in before the creatures know I am there. If I miss or I don't hit hard enough, the pets are on standby just in case I need a wall made. The traps help do the rest. I have been going through traps so fast, I am going to need a factory to make crates so I spend less time crafting them in between battles.
I was a 4/3/4/3 and only needed 5K more Frontiering XP and 25K more trapping XP, and I took on an Ancient Bull Rancor. Every trap I threw hit the guy, got 2K xp out of each. I believe he was cl89. The selection of traps I had helped in lowering defenses, lowering ranged defenses, lowering melee defenses, blinded, stunned and P darted him so he was really missing alot of his swings. I even took a hit from him once, but he happened to hit my one piece of armor I had on at the time, my chest piece and it absorbed a nice chunk of it. I was only down to 50 of my health bar, luckily my pets got his attention again.
NRass I see a serious problem with the Generic Slots distribution u are envisioning. Acoording to your plan, there are many important modules that a ranger camp wont be able to have all in the same time because of the amount of slots available for them.
I will make a separate post on the Ranger Forum about his, calles "NRass PLEASE Read this" or something like that. Won't put it here cause its kinda huge, it may take even more than one post. So pleas ifyou may, read it and give me your feedback. According to your post, there are many Humanoid Modules that i think shouldnt be so, they should be generic modules instead, otherwise they would give to SL more than waht is being given to us Rangers.
I dont know if I may have misunderstood your proposal, but from waht i understand, i see many important issues so thats why i will post on the main Ranger Forum
Eter Solwalker
Naritus Master Ranger/Master Carbineer
I'd like to lend my voice to somewhat curb the attacksbeing made on NRass. Some people are making attacks on NRass due to the fact that he pushes ideas that not everyone agrees with. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that IS his job. NRass is the correspondant for our proffession because he has the dedication and patience to sift through the hundredsof "NRass, please read this" posts and still deal with us in a civil manner. I couldn't due it and if you're attacking NRass, I know for a FACT that you couldn't do it.
What I am saying is that for every idea that NRass likes, there are a bunch he doesn't. and that's okay. However, if everyone else in the Ranger proffession was clamoring "hey I want this" I think NRass would bite the bullet and fight for what everyone wanted. A few disenting voices does not a resistance make. I believe that your insults towards NRass are personal in nature, rather than philisophical. In other words those of you who complain about NRass pushing his own agenda are likely just unhappy that YOUR ideas aren't being heard. Realize this: I make a lot of posts, some good, some bad. Some are recieved well by people some aren't. I don't blame NRass when I make a bad post or if people don't recieve me well. Perhaps the reason that your ideas aren't being pushed by NRass is that the Ranger community as a whole feels that they lack merit. Thus, it is NRass's job to say "Hmmm, no one likes that suggestion, so why would I promote it?"
I think any Ranger who can complain about the job that NRass is doing is crazy. I haven't been here since the begining, but I've been here long enough to see how much NRass DOES listen. Heck, a few weeks ago, I mentioned modular camping in an offhand way. Months before that, others had come up with the same idea. Yet now, with the assistance and recomendations of many of the other people on the forums, NRass has given us a complete, definitive vision of Modular Camping. That is amazing. As for the accusations that NRass is only speaking for himself and his ideas, I'd like to consider Modular Camping partially my own baby. Not only that but NRass has to speak for so many people, not everyone is going to get every idea across. and I'll say this: even if NRass and I don't see eye to eye on every aspect of modular camping, i will FULLY support whatever vision of it he proposes to the devs, because I know that his ideas are the compelations of hundreds of voices (even those voiced who INSULT him).
NRass is human, so ideas he considers to be good will obviously find their way to the top of his proposals. He's not likely to sign off on an idea he thinks is stupid just because the one person who wrote up the idea thought it was good. However a proffession-wide push for something would likely make him see the light. not only that, but as best as i can see, NRass is one of the most intelligent and patient members of the Ranger community (which I think is saying something). If he feels it's a good idea, you can be sure that he's thought about it for a while and not rushed to push his own agenda.
NRass and I will not always eye to eye. I will push for ideas that I feel are good. But then again I don't think I'm as good at compromising as NRass is. I know anyone who complains that NRass pushes his agenda too much is likely worried more about their own agenda.
I think that right now is the worst time to do this, by the way. Insulting the best correspondant I know (I meet a LOT of them on TC) is something I don't find usefull, especially when you consider that we are in the midst of a possible proffession-altering period. Showing our correspondant disrespect could make devs think that we as a proffession can't agree on anything, and they'll wait even longer until we can come together. Now I admit, not everyone of NRass ideas are perfect, but neither are any of us, and that where the majority of the proposals come from: the proffession as a whole. I see a couple of my ideas in this proposal, and I see the ideas of a lot of other posters I respect. If you don't see your own, try again. Not every idea will be well recieved.
I wrote a post this long because someone insulted people who just /cheer NRass. Intead, I figured I'd explain why people might only have a /cheer. Not everyone has a proffession-shaking idea. to some, the idea of Modular Camping, as proposed is sufficiently cool. They have nothing to add because the proposal is so complete. One of the best sigs i've seen on this board (apologies to whoevers' it is, I don't remember the name) is: Ranger Truth- our correspondant can skin your correspondat in no time flat and write a three page proposal on how to make more efficient. (or something like that). I'd like to modify it a bit right now. Ranger Truth: Our correspondant can sift through 600 pounds of bull**edit** in no time flat and find 4 specs of wisdom in them, then combine them in a unique and amazing way, and write a three page proposal on how to make Rangers better. NRass, like it or not, is doing a good job, and a better job than most.
I feel so strongly in favor of NRass, I offer the following curse to those who insult him: may you become a whiny Bounty Hunter pining for the days when your good ideas were heard above your whining companions.
Phenix1050 wrote:
"NRass is the correspondant for our proffession because he has the dedication and patience to sift through the hundredsof "NRass, please read this" posts and still deal with us in a civil manner. I couldn't due it and if you're attacking NRass, I know for a FACT that you couldn't do it. "
Bro, i feel alluded on your last mail cause i just posted one of the thousands " Nrass Please Read This" that u refer. And just wanted to let u know that sometimes criticizing doenst mean flaming or insulting, and yes u are right, i doubt that ANYONE else can do as good job as NRass is doing and that is indeed a FACT.
Actually, i started my " Nrass Please Read This" post praising NRass work and his effort to putting up together sucha thourough proposal. I invite u to read it. And i do think that hes the best Correspondent u can get and as so, those u insult, attack or criticize on a unrespective and destructive manner should become a whiny Bounty Hunter pining for the days when your good ideas were heard above your whining companions. " 
But supporting NRass in his job also means making constructive criticism on his proposal, so it can be even better than it already is. As long as its done on a thoughtful and contructive way, criticism done to NRass will always help him instead of attacking him, and not of all who write "NRass please read this" posts have the intention to attack him but to help him, at least that what i tried to do on mine.
Cya
Eter Solwalker
I detected a slight flaw in the slots to begin with: The large pheromone emitter is a level 4 Creature Module. No camp in the galaxy gets a level 4 Creature Slot, so no one will ever be able to use it.
The same goes for the evacuation Shuttle and humanoid slots. It is a lvl 4 module, but no camp gets a level 4 humanoid slot.
My suggestion for this is to turn the Shuttle beacon into a generic module, in agreement also with the Nraas, please read this post (a very clear title for a camping thread 
)
generic slots take both humanoid and creature modules. So a level 4 generic accepts either a shuttle or phermone emitter.
Now my own concern has to do with the likelyhood of Rangers going on hunts. Under this proposal, a Squad Leader could set up a camp that attracted large creatures. Where would the Ranger come in? Yes a Ranger could ALSO make a camp, but consider this: you have to pay for someone to come along on your hunt (either in creds or loot). You can take a Ranger or a SL.The Sl provides volley fire and several important benefits for your whole group. A Ranger doesn't. Under this proposal, if you want to go Big-Game hunting, a squad leader is actually a better choice than a Ranger. In my eyes this is flawed.
I hate to beat a dead horse (someone please tell me if I'm becoming too repetitive/annoying) but I still think that camps should only be able used either to heal or against creatures, and forts should only be used to buff or against humans. Now, a few, level 1 modules could REPLICATE some of the effects, but would be generic so scouts could use and they could cross over between SL's and Rangers.
I don't know how everyone feels about this (i haven't gotten any stars, how ever shall I know how valuable my ideas are???--or is the no-star even worse than the one-star lol). I also stil think that slots should be open (i.e. not split into classes). I think Rocket Launches should be level 4 humanoid. If a SL so desired to have 3 rocket launchers (assuming 12 slots) so be it! An intelligent party would simply go around such a camp. Why attack a camp with that much automated defences unless you have the manpower to do it??
I think that opening up the slots makes it more open, which I like. People who try to make their camps do too much will have them do it all poorly. Instead, someone who can create high-quality combonations would be good to hunt with.
Today, however, my main concern is that if SL forts can have high-level Ranger modules, they'll be more desireable for PvE, whereas even if a Ranger had a humanoid module, most smart people would take a Squad Leader instead for their abilities. I'm worried that it would be exploited, that's all. I don't think people will drop Ranger ('cause if you do.....) for SL, but that when it comes down to it, having a FEW modules that SL's can't have isn't enough. SL's and Rangers need to be seperate, but equal. We should be the ones to call if there's hunting to be done. If it's a problem with humanoids, Squad Leaders are essentially the commanders of the intergalactic army, and they can deal with humanoids.
Besides, when's the last time the army was sent to deal with the over-population of grizzlies? They don't. They let hunters (kinda like us) bag a few extra bears, rather than send the troops. That's what I don't want to lose, that sense of being the ones you go to when you decide you want to bring down a Krayt or two.