Ranger Archive
Thread: Ungrouped Pets Now Eat 40% Of Harvests
JBMat wrote:
Ok, so far I am not convinced.So far, appears I am winning.
uhhh, so you have nothing for my arguement that your idea of why there is a penalty in the first place is completely wrong?
again, the penalty is not to encourage soloing, nor is it to penalize people who are grouped. It is there to compensate for multiple people being able harvest off of one creature. In instances where only one person can harvest, wether grouped or not, the full 100% should be allowed.
Message Edited by Eklectrick on 02-15-2004 07:19 PM
what xp bonus is this you are talking about, JB? If you mean CH xp, that's hardly a bonus... it only helps advance in that profession. What sort of bonus xp is there that sitting your pet down away from you gives?
The best argument so far for why pets are not the same as the commando buddy is that you don't have to spend any skill points to go hunting with your commando buddy.
If they decide that the harvest reduction when using a pet is an intended stealth nerf, and not a bug we will deal with it. If you need to feel like that is some great victory for you, JB... whatever. Feel like you are "winning" all you want.... Venture's posts in this thread make very good points.
Cressida
Wow, way to dodge the whole skill point argument, JB.
Hmm so pets gave a grouping bonus to weapon xp? I didn't know that. I guess it's because I reached pistol 4 in marksman before I got novice ch and that's as high as I was going since I wanted points for other things. If it's true, it doesn't seem fair. Pets should not count as members for any group xp bonus. Have the Dev's ever commented on this?
As far as stealth nerf/fix or not.... I was having no reduction in harvest when not grouped with my pets the day before the patch... so if there is a change now, then it's new.... at the very least it's not the same on all servers if this wasn't the case for everyone.
Whether JB or anyone else agrees with ungrouped pets taking harvest as grouped or not.... the long and short of it is, some people have experienced this as happening, it didn't always happen... therefore we really should seek some feedback from the Devs on the topic. Because after all they are the ones with the opinions that really matter. That's why it's posted here.
Cressida
JBMat wrote:Still have not seen a cogent argument on my pets should not be considered a part of a group. They are active, can attack or defend, allow you to draw better missions and give you an xp bonus.JB
ugh! Doesn't anyone see my point? JB, you have won the arguement that pet's and master are a group, but you still ignore my point that the penalty has nothing to do with any of your arguements. Just answer this question:
Why did the devs put in a penalty to harvesting in groups?
Not ignoring your questions, thought I tagged it in my last response, but the PC burped and I lost my post, had to redo it. It was late, not an excuse, just the facts.
Plain and simple, no one knows why you harvest less in a group. Beats the old system of first one there gets it all though. My theory - if you are taking bones, and I am taking meat, and Joe is taking hide, we are going to be getting in each others way and possibly ruining each others stuff. Only my theory. Remember, even a Master Ranger does not get 100% of the resource solo. If we did, we would not have group harvest.
Skill points - well duh, you chose a combat profession and spent your skill points on it. You get to have a giant freaking rancor at your back, or front. I get a wimpyazz minor sludge. Not my fault your pet sucks at killing stuff. Not your fault my pistols suck at killing some things. You spent skill points and get to have giant monster pets. I spent skill points and get to do neat dodges and have some chances at hitting things. I covered the armor vs pet stuff already, and the pet is a weapon stuff.
And as to the stealth nerf, I am 100% certain I was getting 60% two weeks ago when I took a mission grouped then went solo. I was getting no more hide off the sharnaffs solo than I was grouped with my non harvesting friend. We had this discussion in another thread and it was pretty much agreed that harvest limits are set at the time the mission is taken. This was the fix to the group to get great missions then solo, and the group with the pets to kill, then disband methods (not exploits).
I can see why you are mad. You take CH, and another profession, and the weapons you picked (pets) restrict your harvest. You can't spend any more skill points on another weapons profession, you don't have any. There is a fix to this, but y'all like being CHs.
JB
When grouped there is a group bonus to XP. Not CH xp, general xp. Like weapons mainly. Has been forever. Check it out. You get more xp grouped using weapons than solo.
Of course, this is more than offset by the fact that your groupmates are dividing the mob's total experience with you. There is only an issue here if you group with someone (PC or pet) that does not actually fight.
Yes, the damage is kinectic, so is the damage I take from creatures.
What damage you take is not at issue. You said we should use pets with different attacks for different targets -- there are no pets with different attacks. Simply put: you stand corrected. Again.
Least you can heal yours, I have to buy new pistols.
There are these things called Weapon Repair Kits you might want to look in to.
Pets wear out too, from vitality loss. It just takes longer. This is offset by their high maintainence cost per fight. You don't have to repair your gun after every fight.
Pets are not passive, they can attack, therefor they are not armor. Crappy weapons with armor capabilities, but weapons.
Admitting that pets are not effective still undermines your argument. Once more, with feeling: the only valid reason to assess penalty against a tactic or profession is to offset a tangible game-balance advantage. By conceding there is no such advantage you invalidate your argument for the assessment of penalty.
Saw this with huurton stalkers. A pet killed it's attacker, then went after the stalker that had dropped the CH, without command as the CH was down. That's automony, and stalkers DB, so they matter.
The stalker in question must have already been on the pet's hate list, possibly as a result of a Guard order. In addition, the pet in question must have already been on the stalker's hate list, or it would have DB'd the CH immediately. The CH himself was very lucky. As any CH can tell you, what usually happens in this scenario is your pet sits and watches while a mob walks over and DBs you. Even if under a Guard order, pets don't interpret "intent to DB" or even the DB itself as a hostile action.
A pet will only engage a target upon one of the following conditions: it is explicitly ordered to, it has been ordered to Guard a PC and that PC is targetted by a hostile, or a hostile targets the pet -- which will only happen if the pet is already engaged in combat due to one of the first two conditions. This is hardly "autonomy", and anyone relying on unattended pets to do their fighting will likely die. Pets require constant attention and management in combat, even moreso under current conditions due to bugs in mob AI in the last patch.
In any case, this has nothing to do with your point.
As to the stealth nerf. Been there forever. Two weeks ago I grouped, drew missions way about my usual level, disbanded and went out solo. Not grouped. I harvested at 60%, as the level is set at the time you draw the missions, not your status when you harvest.
Completely wrong. I don't know what you did two weeks ago, but I have been grouping with pets to draw missions and then disbanding with no penalty up until the current patch. Now I toss in the extra step of storing and recalling the pet after disbanding, and still get no penalty. Harvest level is not set when you draw the missions.
Still have not seen a cogent argument on my pets should not be considered a part of a group.
Yes, you have. You simply don't feel like acknowledging it. It seems to me that you have some personal bias against Creature Handlers.
Plain and simple, no one knows why you harvest less in a group.
Yes, we do, because the developers told us. They felt the penalty was necessary to offset the additional influx of creature resources brought about by group harvesting.
I can see why you are mad. You take CH, and another profession, and the weapons you picked (pets) restrict your harvest. You can't spend any more skill points on another weapons profession, you don't have any. There is a fix to this, but y'all like being CHs.
Meaning you are advocating that people not be Creature Handlers because (according to you) the profession is weak. Thus my earlier comments -- you can't argue both that the profession is weak and it deserves a penalty, and you seem to have an axe to grind against Creature Handlers.
ok, time to bring some focus.
- The whole reason to reduce harvest was the devs needed to control the fact that with EVERYONE in the group can get organics to market and a potential market run was feared. Therefore, 60% while grouped.
- This is not a zero-sum gain, and cost of all items using organics was therfore increased.
- No deffrence to what was grouped was ever coded in. Easier to impliment.
- You have an option not to group with pets to avoid this when using pets.
- This gets past the coding problem.
- Be careful with the pet grouping. In my case I lower the CL of the mission grouping with my Humbaba mount.
- I believe there is a bug here. You can put your pet away and the set of missions for the rest of the night have the penalty show up
- Perhaps the other reason to group, to keep track of pets condition, should be address. Some kind of dragable status window perhaps... dunno.
1. Absolutely RIDICULOUS that I can't get get challenging missions on Endor/Dathomir because I don't have a pet. I am a Master Rifleman and I can kill just about anything on any planet solo, without being touched.. except for maybe one or two animals on certain planets. My buddy who is Master CH can pull a pet and group him and all of a sudden get 25k credit missions and challenging MOBs. Total BULL. A Master Rifleman / Master Ranger is a FAR FAR better hunter than a Master CH / Master Ranger. Not bashing CH, just saying, my rifle is WAY more efficient at bringing down MOBs than even the best CH pets.
2. If there is some sort of XP bonus for having a pet, I certainly don't understand the logic behind that. CH XP should come DIRECTLY out of the XP pool for a MOB. I don't know for sure HOW it works, but the way it SHOULD work is MOB A has an XP pool of 10,000points (for example) and if I do 10% of the damage to that MOB I get 1000points. Same should go for the pets.. they do 10%, then the handler gets 1000points. I am sure you can all find holes in this premise, but you get the idea and its a very very fair and logical way to do things... which also means it probably has never been considered by the developers of this game.
3. The harvesting penalty. Lets keep the apples and oranges separated, shall we?? There is absolutely NO logical argument for having a penalty on harvest when grouping with a pet that can't harvest. Thats just plain ridiculous. I can agree with arguments for XP sharing or whatever... but harvest?? That makes no sense. Why don't you just give the creature half the money from the mission as well if you agree with the logic behind THAT.
Now... keeping all of this in mind....what are the reasons we group a pet in the first place?
1. To get those missions you can't otherwise get
2. To be able to more easily monitor your pets health.
That was pretty much my only reasons when I had a pet. I can't think of any others, so if someone wants to give me more ideas, then please do. Now since I completely disagree with the first reason in the first place, and anyone with any sense of fairness that extends beyond his XP counter and money purse will agree with me... then the answer seems simple.
Remove pet grouping COMPLETELY and create a new little window that will pop up to monitor your pets status. There is your fix, plain and simple.
Let the flames begin,
The real problem, of course, is that a Master Scout/Master CH/Master Rifleman is an even better hunter. :-/
DFH wrote:
A Master Rifleman / Master Ranger is a FAR FAR better hunter than a Master CH / Master Ranger.
The real problem, of course, is that a Master Scout/Master CH/Master Rifleman is an even better hunter. :-/
I can't argue with that. Being able to have an uber-tank (ungrouped of course), and use nothing but /strafeshot2 on even the highest level mobs will most definitely result in more resources over time, even with the negative hit to harvesting from not having Ranger.
This actually makes me want to cry.
What IS a Master Scout's "+creature harvesting" modifier anyway?
JB~
Skill points - well duh, you chose a combat profession and spent your skill points on it. You get to have a giant freaking rancor at your back, or front. I get a wimpyazz minor sludge. Not my fault your pet sucks at killing stuff. Not your fault my pistols suck at killing some things. You spent skill points and get to have giant monster pets. I spent skill points and get to do neat dodges and have some chances at hitting things. I covered the armor vs pet stuff already, and the pet is a weapon stuff.
No, JB... You asked for the difference between grouping with your commando friend who can't harvest and grouping with my pet who also can't harvest. The answer is the skill points I spent for my group member vs the ones you didn't have to for yours.
And again, if you are certain that two weeks ago, your non grouped pet was taking harvest... and others (like me) are certain that that was not the case for them, we still need to find out if this is some sort of bug, or intended as it doesn't seem like it was/is consistent across the servers. (Evidently your "discussion in another thread" didn't reach a broad enough sampling of the players, and the issue should be brought up again.)
Also, if this is true: "This was the fix to the group to get great missions then solo, and the group with the pets to kill, then disband methods (not exploits)." Could you please link where a correspondent or a dev has said this? Because I am sorry, but your opinion/theoryisn't good enough for me to just take as gospel.
Again... that is the real reason for posting the issue here, so the correspondent will maybe pass the word on and get an answer.
By the way, I am not mad because I am out of skill points... I am not actually mad at all. I could easily find something to drop that I don't use if I wanted too... I don't care that there are weapon users out there more powerful than my pets... I do care to find out if a new change (that effects me) is a bug or an intended change. And I do sometimes get irked when simple questions about changes like this get sidelined by people with an axe to grind.
Shaylin wrote:JB~
And again, if you are certain that two weeks ago, your non grouped pet was taking harvest... and others (like me) are certain that that was not the case for them, we still need to find out if this is some sort of bug, or intended as it doesn't seem like it was/is consistent across the servers. (Evidently your "discussion in another thread" didn't reach a broad enough sampling of the players, and the issue should be brought up again.)
There IS a bug.. that will steal your harvest from time to time, that is related to grouping regardless if its with a pet or not.
I have experienced the following...
Grouped with a hunting partner and getting the known 40% reduction in harvesting. That person logs for the night and I continue to get the reduction in harvesting even if he is not part of the group any more. Has no bearing on whether or not I got the mission in a group or not or started the mission in a group or not. The simple fact that I WAS at one time in a group lowered my harvest and it stayed there. Its happened twice to me, and "not happened" inumerous times so I wouldn't say its repeatable. The first time I got db'd by a thune herd leader and it corrected the problem, the second time I just logged for the night and it was gone in the morning.
You can compare my circumstances to yours, JBmat and others... perhaps there is something similar that will explain what we can do to work around this or make it repeatable and get it reported/fixed.