Ranger Archive
Thread: Bows and arrows and why SWG Rangers are not US Army Rangers!
Vorpaks
Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:35 am
#27
Personally I don't mind being forced to take a combat profession to be a Ranger. I just wish Ranger complimented my combat profession to make a powerful and efficient whole. I don't like the idea of a Ranger specific weapon for two reasons.
1. It makes every Ranger the same. If a weapon was added to our profession that allows us to match damage against the purely combat templates then it would obviously be the best choice and everyone would use it. But what about the people who like being polearms, or unarmed, or to use a pistol? Right now it is possible to have many "flavors" of Ranger, and that adds to the profession, in my opinion.
2. What about traps? We already have a vehicle for dealing damage. Just because they don't currently work very well, doesn't mean they should be dismissed. Traps are a very unique part of our profession and have the potential to act as our "weapon" if they are revamped that way. Having both a weapon and throwable traps seems redundant in my mind.
Just my opinion remember, feel free to disagree.
1. It makes every Ranger the same. If a weapon was added to our profession that allows us to match damage against the purely combat templates then it would obviously be the best choice and everyone would use it. But what about the people who like being polearms, or unarmed, or to use a pistol? Right now it is possible to have many "flavors" of Ranger, and that adds to the profession, in my opinion.
2. What about traps? We already have a vehicle for dealing damage. Just because they don't currently work very well, doesn't mean they should be dismissed. Traps are a very unique part of our profession and have the potential to act as our "weapon" if they are revamped that way. Having both a weapon and throwable traps seems redundant in my mind.
Just my opinion remember, feel free to disagree.
Phenix1050
Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:16 am
#28
Paks, I agree with the general spirit of your arguments-- not being as powerful as a pure combat profession, and maintaining the ability for each Ranger to be unique. But it is for those reasons that I think a Ranger weapon is most needed. You talk of uniqueness, but right now, the only effective template is Ranger/Combat. When was the last time you saw a Ranger/doctor?I know you can't master both, but the point is, you don't see someone with a healer template pairing up with ranger skills. Youdon't see crafters choosing Ranger. Why? Because there is no survivability in a template like that. Do I think a Ranger weapon should be as powerful as any other pure combat profession? Certainly not. our skills at trapping, camping, harvesting and the potential for stealth are all very powerful tools. To get what we need,we must sacrifice some power, of course. But if diversity of templates is a goal (and I think it is) then we need Ranger to have some offensive power. Peraps akin to what a person with 4 boxes in a combat profession gets (i.e. marksman 0400), but something to give those people who would rather not have to choose only another combat profession. that is true template diversity.
Tarnak_Archvold
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:01 am
#29
If I remember right the evokes got slaughtered until chewy captured that AT-ST... 
Anyway if we ignore all the debate about the type of a ranger weapon, and how cannon it is and so on under the "this a game and it is mend to be fun" argument.
Then do it all not come down to a debate of weather Ranger should be a stand alone profession, or something we choose to augment an elite combat profession. Weather a master ranger with no other shills should be a viable template for taking part in the GCW (both versus other players and against the npc's) ?
Well I do not think that can be addressed with out knowing more about the CU, unless we take the path of ranger being something chosen to support a combat profession.
I do not se ranger being focused on creatures only as a flaw. I se it as a trade off, one that do not have enough of a benefit yet. We give up some power in PvP and PvNPC combat, but gain a lot more PvCreatur powers.
Look at it like this, if rangers gain power against in PvP and in PvNPC, we will gain less powers in PvCreatur. That is how balance work. And that would mean that we cannot be the ultimate hunters.
In its core the debate of weather ranger should have weapon proficiencies, is a debate about what rangers are supposed to be.
Anyway if we ignore all the debate about the type of a ranger weapon, and how cannon it is and so on under the "this a game and it is mend to be fun" argument.
Then do it all not come down to a debate of weather Ranger should be a stand alone profession, or something we choose to augment an elite combat profession. Weather a master ranger with no other shills should be a viable template for taking part in the GCW (both versus other players and against the npc's) ?
Well I do not think that can be addressed with out knowing more about the CU, unless we take the path of ranger being something chosen to support a combat profession.
I do not se ranger being focused on creatures only as a flaw. I se it as a trade off, one that do not have enough of a benefit yet. We give up some power in PvP and PvNPC combat, but gain a lot more PvCreatur powers.
Look at it like this, if rangers gain power against in PvP and in PvNPC, we will gain less powers in PvCreatur. That is how balance work. And that would mean that we cannot be the ultimate hunters.
In its core the debate of weather ranger should have weapon proficiencies, is a debate about what rangers are supposed to be.
Phenix1050
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:16 am
#30
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
Look at it like this, if rangers gain power against in PvP and in PvNPC, we will gain less powers in PvCreatur. That is how balance work. And that would mean that we cannot be the ultimate hunters.
In its core the debate of weather ranger should have weapon proficiencies, is a debate about what rangers are supposed to be.
I don't see us as "the best hunters". The fact is that stackers are always going to be able to kill stuff faster. to make Ranger balanced, you need to increase our power versus creatures slightly, and you need to increase our power in PvP and in the GCW immensly. The fact is that more that half the game revolves around the GCW. To focus on being "hunters" is simply a bad decision, in my opinion, because its self-restricting. Because as we know now, it's the community that keeps this profession going, and the demand for resources (or Jedi's taking tracking alts). That's really all we're good for. That is a crock of BS if you ask me. We could be so much more.
I look at it like this: in most MMO's you choose a profession and that's it. you get better and better, but only at that profession. In that type of game, your role is solely determined by your one choice in profession. In SWG, a single profession cannot define your role. A Rifleman isn't a sniper. A Ranger/Rifleman is the template that should be a sniper. Rangers aren't hunters. Ranger + combat profession is a hunter. But I don't think hunter should be our only role. We should be able to be anything we want. a soldier, a field medic, a builder. Whatever role we want to play, our skillpoints in Ranger shouldn't stop being useful. Being a hunter should be a valid gameplay choice for a Ranger. But so should being a healer who knows how to survive. Without a Ranger weapon (which wouldn't be nearly as powerful as a regular weapon) I don't see us ever being able to have a template other than Ranger/Combat and still be effective at being a Ranger.
It's taken me a while to realize this-- but Rangers shouldn't "be" any one thing. Just like a rifleman by itself isn't anything. It's not a sniper, it's not an infantry troop. It's just a person good with rifles. and there are hundreds of possible gameplay avenues that Rifleman can take. A Ranger should be the same way-- skills that define them, but not limit them. You shouldn't be able to say-- "that's a Ranger-- all they do is hunt".
*edit note* grammatical error removed because it made one sentance very confusing.
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 03-28-2005 12:36 PM
Tarnak_Archvold
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:41 am
#31
Stackers do not have to always be better at killing creatures then us. We just have to get many abilities in our rewrap. And I would rather se us fight for getting abilities, tools, and skills, to achieve that.
I am not sure I would remain a ranger if it became a stand-alone profession, but getting damage dealing abilities. Because that would mean it cessed to being a unique play-style. It would just be another style of combat like all the others.
I am not sure I would remain a ranger if it became a stand-alone profession, but getting damage dealing abilities. Because that would mean it cessed to being a unique play-style. It would just be another style of combat like all the others.
Phenix1050
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:48 am
#32
damage-dealing doesn't make you stand-alone. As I've said, this wouldn't be a super-powerful weapon. But something to SURVIVE if you don't choose to have a full combat profesion. What is "unique" about Ranger IS the way we do combat. using traps, camoflauge and tracking to achieve our goals is unique. being able to kill creatures ISN'T unique. Even with a weapon a Master Ranger/Combat player won't choose to use that weapon. It's simply a tool to diversify.
If you consider the possibility of being a Ranger/Doctor and actually having it be useful...that's a great vision. As long as we're tied to only creature combat, and as long as we have no abiliity to deal damage--we limit ourself to only being hunters. No other profession is so limited. That may be your style of play...and it's mine too. But thinking only of your own gameplay is bad. I'm trying to think of what's best for the game and the profession...and opening it up to more avenues of play is better than keeping it close-minded and narrow.
irott
Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:02 am
#33
I see Ranger as the other side of the coin as Squad Leader.
A Squad Leader helps her/his group stay alive with specialized group skills.
A Ranger helps her/himself stay alive using self-sufficient skills.
In both cases they are survivalists, one using leadership to help a group, the other using outdoorsman/survival techniques.
Since Squad Leaders can use their skills in both PvP and PvE situations, it only makes sense that a Ranger should also be able to function in either circumstance.
I envision Rangers as working much like Metal Gear Solid 3... except without all the military stuff (although, I guess you still could by joining the GCW and roleplaying as such.)
/salute
A Squad Leader helps her/his group stay alive with specialized group skills.
A Ranger helps her/himself stay alive using self-sufficient skills.
In both cases they are survivalists, one using leadership to help a group, the other using outdoorsman/survival techniques.
Since Squad Leaders can use their skills in both PvP and PvE situations, it only makes sense that a Ranger should also be able to function in either circumstance.
I envision Rangers as working much like Metal Gear Solid 3... except without all the military stuff (although, I guess you still could by joining the GCW and roleplaying as such.)
/salute
CuchulainnDarklight
Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:20 am
#34
Well said Phenix, I have to say that we HAVE to be able to fight creatures no matter what skills we have in addition to ranger. A ranger/entertainer should be able to outdamage everyone esle against creatures so we need a signature weapon, that is effective against creatures. I mean what is the point of ranger if im a better hunter with Scout and a combat stacked template. Absolutely none. My argument is, we need a weapon that gives us the best creature killing abilities in augmentation with either revising our trapping and camo and camping skills, or even (gasp) fixing them so they work properly. This weapon will be usable against NPCs and PCs BUT WITH LESS EFFECTIVENESS than a person-person combat profession, but with skill we can survive in other game combat arenas as it still does decent damage. If we dont get this then Ranger will have to be revamped even more than any proposals we have to be viable or the Master Scout prerepuisite must be removed, because as it is we cant be a ranger and hunt without a combat-oriented profession taking up all the other skillpoints in our profession.
I just use a bow and hunting knife as an example as it will be a unique weapon with a hunting flavour for our profession.
And we should NEVER be able to use a Bowcaster (unless we are wookies) because thats just stupid. And that means as a crossbow looks like one a bow is a better choice as a SIGNATURE weapon. At the moment, a rangers signature weapon is a fishing pole ffs!!!!! Tremble in terror big game.
A trapgun should be looked at, but not as a weapon, just a method of using our traps, and i think it should have an animation like the commando missile launch (good idea mate) but it ISNT a weapon, you cant kill a creature with a trap. It should be in conjunction with our signature weapon the bow.
And on the point of the Bow not being high tech enough, Rangers by the SWG definition, are survivalists, able to survive for months or years away from civilisation and carry on hunting the big game. Well any kind of high-tech weapon is useless then as there is no way to get more blaster charges, bullets or whatever. To keep a bow working or making a new one - all you need is a knife, a bit off wood and the guts from a nearby critter. Thats why the bow is the perfect ranger weapon. It justs fits the SWG ranger profile perfectly.
my idea of a bow would be the simple one wood one craftable by rangers or AS, with the AS ones more effective, (the longbow) with the high-tech compound bow (craftable only by the AS) available at master ranger. The crafted bow would have a weapon speed and ammo capacity as its experimental stats. Then come the arrows which have damage ratings depending on their types. The arrows can be crafted in the field by the ranger (simple wood arrows with a low damage rating). But the more effective arrows will be made from high tech materials by the AR and the most effective, expensive ones will have a moderatley high max damage (say 500) and an ap1 rating (or whatever this becomes in the CU) plus a x2 damage mod against creatures. The weapon special moves will then reflect the the ranger adding to the arrow, say poison tips or explosive tips (from what ive read of specials in the CU this fits in alright. The wind up and wind down times make sense as you coat the arrow in poison or strap an explosive to it before letting it fly - thwock). The use of the bow in conjunction with effective working traps will make us highly effective against creatures and reasonably effective against everything else. And just as importantly, we will have ourown playstyle, which is unique and fun to play and rewarding.
And this will then mean that if you are a ranger you dont have to take a combat profession to play the game, you can play the game as whatever you want, and not be excluded from the majority of the games content. And I cant see anything wrong with that.
Tarnak_Archvold
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:50 pm
#35
Phenix1050 wrote:
damage-dealing doesn't make you stand-alone. As I've said, this wouldn't be a super-powerful weapon. But something to SURVIVE if you don't choose to have a full combat profesion.
But it does... if a master ranger can hunt with out have to rely on any other skills they Ranger IS a stand alone profession. It does not need support form any other profession, or to lend support to any other profession.
A doc for example cannot "stand alone" in combat. Sure they can take part and heal others, but do not have any significant damage dealing abilities unless they choose to spend skill points on it. Just as rangers cannot currently "stand alone" in combat. We can throw traps and help out that way, but cant do any significant damage unless we chose to spend sp on it...
Phenix1050 wrote:
What is "unique" about Ranger IS the way we do combat. using traps, camoflauge and tracking to achieve our goals is unique. being able to kill creatures ISN'T unique.
But then why do you wand it. Do you honestly thing the devs will give use all the all kinds of recon and stealth tools and ground based traps, and all that. And then give us even half the power of say a master pistoleer on top? I, for one, do not believe in fairytales.
Do you think you can make ranger unique by giving us something that at least 10 other professions already have? Instead of giving us something that no other profession have?
We use 140 to become master rangers. A single combat master uses 106. If we get half a single combat masters killing power, we will have 87 sp worth of real ranger contend left. And we still will only have 75% of the power of a dual combat mastery (assuming combat powers stack, and that we pick up a combat mastery).
So if combat powers do stack between professions, we will still be almost and much left behind as we are now (where we will be at 50% a dual masters powers) and still wound have be able to compete with the best in PvP and PvNPC.
If combat powers on the other hand do not stack between professions that 50% singe master powers will be waited by anyone choosing to get a master combat profession, as they will be just a powerful as the dual masters, just with out the ability to switch to a 2nd weapon type.
That would make any damage dealing powers of the ranger profession either worthless or waited.
The only template that would truly benefit for a damage dealing ability in ranger is Ranger/CH's.
Phenix1050 wrote:
If you consider the possibility of being a Ranger/Doctor and actually having it be useful...that's a great vision.
Currently a ranger/doctor template is viable, it just cannot be used to solo (well not any high level contend). In a group it can run around and heal the other group members, and debuff the creatures the group is fighting. On its own it can use a buffed CL 10 pet, a CDEF rifle, and C12 grenades to do the damage. And thoughts stim-e's will be handy in keeping the pet and it self alive. It will even have a creature to hit bonus and traps when fighting creatures.
Phenix1050 wrote:
As long as we're tied to only creature combat, and as long as we have no abiliity to deal damage--we limit ourself to only being hunters. No other profession is so limited.
Being limited to creature combat only is not necessary a bad thing. That are what trade offs are about. By taking one skill box over another, you gain power in one area, instead of another. In our case we get more powers over the environment and the creatures, we even get the powers to avoid some NPC's, an we take these over a 2nd mastery of a combat profession (or instead of healing powers, or crafting abilities or what ever)
As for other profession that are equally limited... what about crafters... they can only craft. Or entertainers who have to be in a public cantina/hotel/theatre or in a player structure.
Phenix1050 wrote:
That may be your style of play...and it's mine too. But thinking only of your own gameplay is bad. I'm trying to think of what's best for the game and the profession...and opening it up to more avenues of play is better than keeping it close-minded and narrow.
That is a low blow Phenix. I am thinking of what is best for the game. I believe that the game is best served by getting skills in the ranger profession that know one else has, instead of giving ranger skills that many other professions already has. A profession or a play style is made unique by giving it something no one else has.
Rangers will not be opened up to more contend by giving us weapons. It will close doors for us. It will close doors by not getting us as many unique abilities. While we could always get damage dealing powers throe dabbling in a beginner combat profession it its elites.
Phenix1050
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:52 pm
#36
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
Stackers do not have to always be better at killing creatures then us. We just have to get many abilities in our rewrap.
Here is why stackers will alway be more deadly: the only thing (short of giving us a weapon, which you're opposed to) they could do is give us a creature combat multiplyer. Ranger does 1.5x damage or somthing like that. I've thought about this for a while, and there's no way they'll do that. Why? Not because of Rangers, but consider other powerful profession, like rifleman. It's not unheard of for a rifleman to do over 2000 damage in one hit. Multiply that by 1.5 and you've got a special that's WAY too powerful. Consider a Master LS/Ranger. the amount of damage a high generation LS could do with any bonus from Ranger is extreme.
thus, you can't give Ranger multipliers for damage. Adding more defenses could work, but unless you can out-damage the stacker, he's gonna kill faster than you. the point is, while it may help Rangers to have a multiplier, it would also hurt the game. We don't need more 1-shot kills in this game. You need to think of ways that people can (and will) abuse any bonus we give to Rangers.
CuchulainnDarklight
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:57 pm
#37
Well im not a new ranger by any means - and if you read through a post you tend to find out how its argument has progressed so you dont post a reply which is totally out of place. Just because in my first post I say rangers should be more combat oriented towards creature killing does NOT mean that we shouldnt be unable to fight in any other arena.
My point is, there is absolutely no point to ranger without us having our own combat skills that make us the BEST hunters of game, and capable of fighting in the other areas. As it is now, rangers can track creatures stealthily, then when it breaks our camo or mask scent we can throw a trap that if we are lucky delays it while we run like hell away.
The major problem with people who say we dont need our own ranger combat skills is that they are already master combat in some profession. But, not everyone wants to be just a fighter, some people want to try other things, for example the ranger who hunts game for the ingredients for his medicines etc.
This idea that we dont need a signature weapon or combat skills that work in ALL areas of combat will kill ranger deader than SOE have managed, especially for the new players who join the game and dont go ranger because anyone they ask about itlaughs and says "Just take Scout, it does the same, and you can have more fun with different professions if you ignore ranger!"
And even worse, if your a Master Ranger, and a Master Combat profession you dont even have the skill points left to get the 6 trees of force sensitive skills to unlock your second character. So we are even held back from the force sensitive areas which the Jedi revamp was meant to open up for everyone! Hmm.
Tarnak_Archvold
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:58 pm
#38
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Well said Phenix, I have to say that we HAVE to be able to fight creatures no matter what skills we have in addition to ranger. A ranger/entertainer should be able to outdamage everyone esle against creatures so we need a signature weapon, that is effective against creatures. I mean what is the point of ranger if im a better hunter with Scout and a combat stacked template. Absolutely none.
Now you are just wining. You are saying that someone spending 140 sp on a master ranger should be able to out damage someone spending 200 sp on a dual combat mastery and 1000 scout? A typical I was the abilities of [insert profession] but I do not wand to spend the SP on it. And I thought I had to go the BH boards to se that.
I guess this means that any constructive debate on this topic is at an end.
CuchulainnDarklight
Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:05 pm
#39
Tarnak_Archvold wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
damage-dealing doesn't make you stand-alone. As I've said, this wouldn't be a super-powerful weapon. But something to SURVIVE if you don't choose to have a full combat profesion.
But it does... if a master ranger can hunt with out have to rely on any other skills they Ranger IS a stand alone profession. It does not need support form any other profession, or to lend support to any other profession.
A doc for example cannot "stand alone" in combat. Sure they can take part and heal others, but do not have any significant damage dealing abilities unless they choose to spend skill points on it. Just as rangers cannot currently "stand alone" in combat. We can throw traps and help out that way, but cant do any significant damage unless we chose to spend sp on it...
Ranger is supposed to be the hunter of very dangerous game in the wilderness, according this Tarnak your saying we should be Trackers of big game unless we get a combat profession.
Ranger is a combat profession, what do you think hunting is, Doctor is a support profession not a combat profession.
Using this comparison of yours, where ranger is not a combat profession but is a support professionlike doctor,a Master Doctor would have to spend the rest of his skillpoints in Rifleman to give him the ability to heal others, just as ranger has to spend its spare points in a combat profession just to do what it is supposed to do - HUNT!