Ranger Archive
Thread: For anyone who missed it: A Theory of Fun.
More companies need to be like Cryptic. They need to listen to their players, do their own thing but let the players know whats coming and why. Keep them informed. SOE doesn't seem to subscribe to this notion at all judging by the CH changes that came out of left field recently and the general lack of information on whats coming in advance etc.
This game is about grinding. Thats all that most people see, because players on the whole don't want a challenge. They are lazy and want the same routine that works to advance them, because its predictable and they don't have to think. Sure, there are clearly exceptions I know, but the vast majority seem to gravitate naturally towards the FOTM spec, the established pattern of grinding etc because that tactics assures them of the most steady success with the least risk. Knowing that, a company needs to find a way that results in predictable gain, reliable performance etc, but does not require - or even permit - repeating the same action again and again directly. It should be impossible to grind bols on Dantooine - the system should "run out" of Bol missions when too many are requested, and players should be forced to pick what remains, but here's the key, those missions should be comparable, not aggro-festivals of death like so many are (and thus the reason the ubiquitous bol is the favoured mission by 95% of players). As well, I think you should temporarily earn less experience if you kil the same thing too many times in a row, making picking a variety of mobs a better strategy.
The whole concept of grinding experience to earn jedi needs to be replaced with a complex, non-repeating, non-predicatble quest system that generates a unique, random and effectively undocumentable series of quests that let you earn each box in your template. That way each player has to learn the skills on their own by resolving the problems they face, not just go read a website somewhere, then go grind 600,000 Bols or make 150,000 Advanced Droid Frames. This change would mean content, what we have currently is not content.
As well these companies need to realize that they cannot, and shouldn't cater to the powergamer. That type of player burns through things and moves on like a malevolent locust. Catering to them and trying to retain them only produces a game that is horrid for everyone else. Ignore the powergamers, they are a tiny but vocal minority. Dont make a game for them, let them burn through something else. Go for the typical normal person who can play a few hours a week and make it fun for them.
SWG has so much potential to be a great game, and parts of it are terrific already or wouldn't be playing it, but much of it has been and is being so badly mangled by developers who really don't seem to get it
Holocron's srticle doesn't touch on it at all but I personally am curious - how much of game enjoyment do you think is the player's responsibility and how much is the game's responsibility?
I lay it all on the game developer.
If I am paying them for a service, usually advertised and marketed as a game, then I expect to receive said service. If they were advertising an open enviroment with some tools, I might be more lenient, but then I would probably not be paying them. On a MUD, MOO or similar enviroment where I pay nothing, I have lower expectations and appreciate any effort spent towards improving the game.
The real trick is to provide fun, and provide the tools for players to make their own fun. The game cannot rely on this extra player created content to run the game, only to enhance the experience. Creative players will take advantage of these systems (see the moding community), and may extend the life of a product dramatically, but they have to be supported or else they will migrate to someplace that appreciates their efforts.
I'll note this was one of SWG's original design goals, when Raph was a part of the team.
I for one enjoy creating my own fun, as I am sure most if not all of us Rangers do. Sometimes, and for me it seems to be becoming more frequent, I just like to go to an area where noone is and hunt and fish to my hearts content.
I am sure it is obvious to most that there are 3 main play styles here in SWG: The Powergamers, The RPers, and those I like to call The In-Betweeners, the last group is whatr I believe alot of people are, not really powergamers yet not gung-ho RPers, who are content to do a little of both.
I think it is somewhat difficult to cater to the first two types of groups, either A) you will keep adding quantity of quests, items etc to satisfy the powergamers, while in a sense upsetting the RPers with issues such as Timeline and things of that nature. On the flip side if you catered to the RPers and made most everything move at a speed which would be more comfortable to them, you would upset those that are trying to "beat the game" and both sides make up a large portion of the playerbase so that upsetting one group or the other would likely cost SOE more money than they are willing to lose.
So in short, I know that they can't cater to every one, as everyone's idea of fun is different so to discuss "theorys of fun", while I understand where they are comming from, is like arguing about which is better Pepsi or Coke.
Just my opinion.
By the way the answer is Pepsi 
Owen-Lars wrote:
Thing is,people can shoutaboutif a player is set in the treadmill routine then its their fault, because they could be out doing other things, grinding jedi, being a crafter etc but instead choose to go into a routine. All of that is nonsense though, if a player is bored with the game because none of the areas interest them then that is bad game design, not the player's fault.
Blaming boredom on the players just reaks of arrogance and projects a belief that the players should feel privelaged to play a game, that players should like what the devs think is fun or its the player's fault that the game doesnt live up to their expectations. Sure a SW game will always be hyped up something rotton but this is acustomer ledmarket and the devs need to acknowledge this much more than they do now.
Succesful games do not achieve that success from developers putting across their opinion and expecting others to agree. They achieve success by doing what the constumers desire and sticking to the mentality that the customer is always right.
Ya, sorry that was not anywhere in Holo's article, like I said that was just my own personal question. /blush
Ironically I got sick of WoW becauseI felt I was being forced to do what the developers wanted me to do, not what I wanted to do. Every step was a step along a predetermined path... a step that every other player in my class had or would take. There was nothing that allowed my character to be herself. Or maybeI just needed to find a more RP server.
Oops sorry hehe, that wasnt aimed at you, it was in reference to the following:
"how much of game enjoyment do you think is the player's responsibility and how much is the game's responsibility?"
I was saying that imo game enjoyment is totally down to the developers and game. Not really speaking in reference to what Holo said, just that the devs are paid to make the game fun and enjoyable so if you dont enjoy the game and find it fun then the devs have failed.
Oh the note of wow, like i was saying, you cant assume that every customer is right, im mass market targeted games such as wow, eq2 and swg you need to focus on the masses. SOE just dont do that.
There are many opportunities to make your character your own in the game be it through the use of talents, gamestyle or gear you wear but yeah its not for everyone. No games will be but some are better at pulling in the masses than others because they listen to their customers more. Wow has 4 mil customers and growing in the hundreds everyday, yes its not for everyone but its what SWG has always aimed for and their is a reason why it hasnt.
Again, sorry if it sounded like i was blitzing yours or anyones opinion, but i was just talking in reference to the question and i supose it tipped me over the edge releasing tonnes of built up 'pissedoffness' that has been building up since release.
I never stopped to think how big an aspect of being a Ranger that part was, until it was gone.
Damn those grey cons
Oku Kee'lus Owen, you make some excellent observations and points on how a MMO should play. SWG could again be the flagship of the online gaming industry if it could better transition to experience gained by actual experience (eg. quests, missions of content, PvP actions, etc) instead of the treadmill grinding.
I trully wish SWG was more merit and content based. It would make the game more of an immersive experience than journey of repetitive tasks.
I have often wondered about howthe journey to Master Ranger--as an example--would beif gaining creature knowledge and survival skills (and the XP from them) were only gained by actually hunting every creature on every planet in the game.
Owen-Lars wrote:
Thing is,people can shoutaboutif a player is set in the treadmill routine then its their fault, because they could be out doing other things, grinding jedi, being a crafter etc but instead choose to go into a routine. All of that is nonsense though, if a player is bored with the game because none of the areas interest them then that is bad game design, not the player's fault.
Blaming boredom on the players just reaks of arrogance and projects a belief that the players should feel privelaged to play a game, that players should like what the devs think is fun or its the player's fault that the game doesnt live up to their expectations. Sure a SW game will always be hyped up something rotton but this is acustomer ledmarket and the devs need to acknowledge this much more than they do now.
Succesful games do not achieve that success from developers putting across their opinion and expecting others to agree. They achieve success by doing what the constumers desire and sticking to the mentality that the customer is always right.
Obviously in a market of this size you cannot believe that all customers are always right but you can still go by the masses and that is by far the biggest factor that makes a successful game.
If players are stuck in an unfun routine and the other possible avenues they could explore are percieved to be boring and uninteresting then that is most definatly a design flaw. The game should give the players what they want (within reason) in order to make the product sell.
The most obvious recent joke ofa decision came with the announcement of the new expansion. What idiot suggested that? I mean sorry for bringing harsh comments into the thread but the inteligence shown at that decision makes even George Bush look like good old Albert Einstien. The players wanted Hoth, the players wanted more SW and GCW, the players didnt want more jedi focus, the players were confused about timeline, the players were up in arms about the state of core professions.................. So the devs announce a non-gcw, non-hoth, jedi focused, timeline confused mess of an expansion with pretty pictures of lightsabers and the promise of a massively powerfull force crystal! woot! Like i said, Idiots.
It is said far too often and even moreso ignored by SOE but people should start listening to their customers and understanding that to make a successful game in terms of profit (because we all know thats what its ALL about) you need to do what the customer wants.
Wow is absolutally huge because it played to the market and did what so many customers wanted. They wanted a game with high end raids not restricted to only hardcore gamers, CHECK! They wanted a large and integrated pvp system with more than just your attack and finish systems, CHECK! They wanted to level up through quests, not grinding, CHECK! They wanted a fast leveling curve and focus on what you do around the high levels rather than dragging out the leveling, CHECK! They wanted an integrated story line, CHECK! They wanted fast paced combat system with very little downtime, CHECK! They wanted casual gamers not to be punished for not having masses of hours to play the game everyday, CHECK! The list goes on and on...............................
You may or may not like WOW but their is no denying, its the most successfull mmo ever. The reason why it is successfull is because the devs stick to the companies long standing goals: 'If it isnt fun, we dont do it' and 'we make games for our players to have fun in'.
End of the day, people can hide around the point as much as they want but ultimatly, if the game is boring to play and you have no desire to try other areas because they dont interest you then that is bad game design. The game is designed to keep people playing by giving them fun things to do, faulure to provide this lands soley on the devs shoulders.
Sneev wrote:
The whole concept of grinding experience to earn jedi needs to be replaced with a complex, non-repeating, non-predicatble quest system that generates a unique, random and effectively undocumentable series of quests that let you earn each box in your template. That way each player has to learn the skills on their own by resolving the problems they face, not just go read a website somewhere, then go grind 600,000 Bols or make 150,000 Advanced Droid Frames. This change would mean content, what we have currently is not content.
Well, I agree with you in theory about how Jedi advancement should progress...
But the problem is, I don't trust this pack of developers who were told TEN DAYS prior to the end of June publication thatnatural pets were now level 1 (0) and did NOTHING to prevent the bug from going live to put together an "undocumentable series of quests" that works.
This is the bottom line, while I'd prefera mystery, I can't trust the SWG devs to put together one that isn't riddled with bugs and blind alleys and when you report those problems they glibly reply that it is "working as intended".
We've been burned by these clowns way too many times to trust them to do something right. Heck, the phase IV prowess and reflexes quests have been bugged for over a year, every single time phase IV hits people do not unlock branches even after they've completed the quests, and the only way out is a one on one CSR log into your toon workaround to unlock the line.
Vorpaks wrote:
For example, whenlevelingplaying a new character, I have to force myself to go do a themepark or two to level up rather than just grinding outside the city. When I go do the themeparks I enjoy the game SO much more
I know what you mean Vorpaks. I've done the same. Particularly when I did the Rebel themepark I was all giggly because I was interacting with the OT characters. Although that novelty wears off quite quickly because you soon realise the type of quests/themeparks we have here in SWG aren't actually fun, they're just rapid fire missions and IMHO with lame rewards.
Owen-Lars wrote:Thing is, people can shout about if a player is set in the treadmill routine then its their fault, because they could be out doing other things, grinding jedi, being a crafter etc but instead choose to go into a routine. All of that is nonsense though, if a player is bored with the game because none of the areas interest them then that is bad game design, not the player's fault.
Blaming boredom on the players just reaks of arrogance and projects a belief that the players should feel privelaged to play a game, that players should like what the devs think is fun or its the player's fault that the game doesnt live up to their expectations. Sure a SW game will always be hyped up something rotton but this is a customer led market and the devs need to acknowledge this much more than they do now.
Succesful games do not achieve that success from developers putting across their opinion and expecting others to agree. They achieve success by doing what the constumers desire and sticking to the mentality that the customer is always right.
Obviously in a market of this size you cannot believe that all customers are always right but you can still go by the masses and that is by far the biggest factor that makes a successful game.
If players are stuck in an unfun routine and the other possible avenues they could explore are percieved to be boring and uninteresting then that is most definatly a design flaw. The game should give the players what they want (within reason) in order to make the product sell.
The most obvious recent joke of a decision came with the announcement of the new expansion. What idiot suggested that? I mean sorry for bringing harsh comments into the thread but the inteligence shown at that decision makes even George Bush look like good old Albert Einstien. The players wanted Hoth, the players wanted more SW and GCW, the players didnt want more jedi focus, the players were confused about timeline, the players were up in arms about the state of core professions.................. So the devs announce a non-gcw, non-hoth, jedi focused, timeline confused mess of an expansion with pretty pictures of lightsabers and the promise of a massively powerfull force crystal! woot! Like i said, Idiots.
It is said far too often and even moreso ignored by SOE but people should start listening to their customers and understanding that to make a successful game in terms of profit (because we all know thats what its ALL about) you need to do what the customer wants.
Wow is absolutally huge because it played to the market and did what so many customers wanted. They wanted a game with high end raids not restricted to only hardcore gamers, CHECK! They wanted a large and integrated pvp system with more than just your attack and finish systems, CHECK! They wanted to level up through quests, not grinding, CHECK! They wanted a fast leveling curve and focus on what you do around the high levels rather than dragging out the leveling, CHECK! They wanted an integrated story line, CHECK! They wanted fast paced combat system with very little downtime, CHECK! They wanted casual gamers not to be punished for not having masses of hours to play the game everyday, CHECK! The list goes on and on...............................
You may or may not like WOW but their is no denying, its the most successfull mmo ever. The reason why it is successfull is because the devs stick to the companies long standing goals: 'If it isnt fun, we dont do it' and 'we make games for our players to have fun in'.
End of the day, people can hide around the point as much as they want but ultimatly, if the game is boring to play and you have no desire to try other areas because they dont interest you then that is bad game design. The game is designed to keep people playing by giving them fun things to do, faulure to provide this lands soley on the devs shoulders.
Amen! QFFE!
Particularly where you say "that players should like what the devs think is fun". This is evident in the way SOE beta tests new material. In as much that they don't, much, in the context of responding to player feedback. In this context, I have two anedotes from the combat revamp beta testing. First of all, one day during beta testing I bumped into a dev, so I told him how displeased I was with what I was seeing and he responded "I'm sorry you feel that way but I'm enjoying it very much". Secondly, there was a user poll everyday on the beta testing forum. The combat revamp turned up constant dissaproval. The best rating the combat revamp ever got was that only 75% of the beta testers thought it was "poor" (as opposed to the otherwise daily low to mid 90% "poor" rating). Yet despite this not only was the combat revamp pushed out as is but it was pushed out early!
A lot of the negative feeling in this game comes from the attitude that SOE devs seem to come at it's customers with. They're the only ones who can fix this. As things are, they seem to be unwilling to work with the player base as a partner or as a guide, instead they operate by telling us what we are going to like. This is an awful state of affairs.