Ranger Archive
Thread: rangers not getting combat specials, ur thoughts???
frkjerm wrote:
Frost1977 wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
if our traps work against any target, I'm all for not having specials. But seriously, if Rangers can't use their traps against creatures, yeah, we need at least 2 or 3 specials to give us some fuctionality in all aspects of the game.
if i remember right they said at this point the Ranger traps will only effect NPCs not critters.
if you want to hunt critters you no longer need ranger just master scout, so i dont get your arguement. people need to disassociate scout and ranger they are 2 different proffesions now.
Since the traps are an AoE "weapon" (possebly not with the tuned proximity trigger), they should affect anything and everything within there AoE.
Phenix1050 wrote:
if our traps work against any target, I'm all for not having specials. But seriously, if Rangers can't use their traps against creatures, yeah, we need at least 2 or 3 specials to give us some fuctionality in all aspects of the game.
I agree. If our traps work on everything, they they are our specials (as with combat medics), but if not, then we should have something we can use against creatures.
Furthermore, if we do end up getting stuck with needing Carbines 4 as a prerequisit, then I think we should have some specials (regardless of what our traps do), simply for the sake of giving some justification for having to take carbines. Otherwise, we'd be forced to take Carbines, but then not be able to do much with them and that's no good.
Makkaio wrote:
I think the traps and stealth ARE our combat specials, just like the weapons are the commando specials. So I never really gave much thought to weapon or unarmed specials. I don't feel all that bad that there are none at this point. Stealth attacks, within the current system, may be overpowered if specific specials are created. I think gaining first strike with steath is a HUGE special in and of itself. Any new combat specials would be a bonus to me at this point.
Thats nice, but commando weapons work against all targets, not just sentients.
just my 2 cents
Now, in ranged templates...that isn't an issue. Non-ranged templates are a totally different matter however.
Having your weapons act as your specials, isn't always the best thing. For us, it doesn't entirely work since our role is that of a damage dealer. For you guys, it may not be too much of an issue because Ranger will be stealthy and trap orientated. But I'll tell you guys this: If traps are as powerful as grenades currently are, you're in trouble. Our grenades are worse off where both damage and states are concerned, than that of our equipable weapons. Because of this and our lack of specials, we're essentially locked out of any template that doesn't include at least a ranged profession for specials. If our grenades were pretty powerful, our issue with weak damage may not even be one...but they're very tricky to balance out. I honestly would not want another profession to be stuck in that position.
The lack of specials, however, may not be so much of a big deal if your traps are pretty nasty. Thats mainly where my concern of, will our grenades get love?, came from. Since these babies will have to make up for your profession's damage, as well as role in trap-setting/stealthy demolitions...they're going to have to be powerful. Combine that with (from what I've heard from you guys), some AoE...then you got a very, very big balancing hazard and a consumable system that resembles like how our grenades function despite the difference of setting vs thrown.
I'm personally betting that to properly balance Ranger without specials, it's going to be rather tricky and/or complicated. It was and still been with Commando, I can tell you all that - we're a developer's nightmare in regards to balance.
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-25-2005 12:09 AM
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Makkaio wrote:
I think the traps and stealth ARE our combat specials, just like the weapons are the commando specials. So I never really gave much thought to weapon or unarmed specials. I don't feel all that bad that there are none at this point. Stealth attacks, within the current system, may be overpowered if specific specials are created. I think gaining first strike with steath is a HUGE special in and of itself. Any new combat specials would be a bonus to me at this point.
Thats nice, but commando weapons work against all targets, not just sentients.
Notice that my comments come before the thread gets off on another topic and I only use commando as an example not as a comparison. I, too, hope the devs will look at allowing our traps to work on both humanoid and creatures. If we get specials, that will be great. I can see this new ranger class becoming very powerful if there are no restrictions placed on it, however.
Also, if ranger traps are to be used on both humanoid and creature, should it then be the same for scouts?
Makkaio wrote:
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Makkaio wrote:
I think the traps and stealth ARE our combat specials, just like the weapons are the commando specials. So I never really gave much thought to weapon or unarmed specials. I don't feel all that bad that there are none at this point. Stealth attacks, within the current system, may be overpowered if specific specials are created. I think gaining first strike with steath is a HUGE special in and of itself. Any new combat specials would be a bonus to me at this point.
Thats nice, but commando weapons work against all targets, not just sentients.
Notice that my comments come before the thread gets off on another topic and I only use commando as an example not as a comparison. I, too, hope the devs will look at allowing our traps to work on both humanoid and creatures. If we get specials, that will be great. I can see this new ranger class becoming very powerful if there are no restrictions placed on it, however.
Also, if ranger traps are to be used on both humanoid and creature, should it then be the same for scouts?
In my opinion yes it should be the same for scouts. It always seemed unfeasible to me that scouts/rangers could throw a wire mesh that'd slow down a Rancor; although that same net would not have the same effect on a player-pet Rancor, or indeed the humanoid owner of the pet-Rancor!
Scout traps are as they are though, so it's debatable if the devs would agree with changing them (although I think they should). However, some of the new ranger traps are actually explosives, so I would find it even more unfeasible that they didn't hurt creatures.
If you lay a minefield in a herd of Bantha, and then get some StormTrooper NPC's to chase you through that minefield and set it off as they pass through - why should the Bantha's be magically unscathed while the StormTroopers have just been blown to bits?
Disclaimer: I apologise to all StormTrooper fans for this clearly distressing scenario!.
My 2 cents....
This is kinda off topic, but i chuckled when i thought of it...You guys want the traps to work on critters? I bet for the first week or so it will be so buggy, that in fact, your traps WILL work on creatures....amen, everyone is happy WOOT
Sylow wrote:
On the scout trapps working on critters, i sure think that this should be maintained. Scout is aimed at wilderness and creatures.
If scout traps start working on NPCs or even players, i demand that hunting is also adjusted... why ami unable to skin the corpse of that rebel i just killed? (Nope, i don't really want that, but that's just the point...)
About ranger traps working only on humanoids, that's something i disagree about. Sure, the "army ranger" is trained to trap and kill other people, but in the world of SWG, there are many other threats the ranger has to be prepared for... so, a trap should not only trigger when a rebel Bothan walks into it (many Bothans died to bring you this message, i hope you appreciate it) but also should work when a krayt dragon walzes over it.
That's at least my point of view.
That's flawed logic tho Sylow. Using exactly your point above... no profession in the game has a combat weapon or special (and traps are the weapons and specials for Scouts & Rangers) that is explicitly prohibited from being used against whatever it is you're fighting against. Taking your point above to it's logical conclusion, would you then say that it is likewise fair to limit every combat profession, plus all the combat hybrids (commando, sl, bh, smuggler, cm) from being able to use ANY of their specials against creatures, since not a single one of them takes trapping as a pre-req, and trapping is apparetnly the 100% creature centric skill? Maybe only basic marksman and brawler attacks are allowed, or maybe you can't attack a creature at ALL unless you take Novice Scout or Huntingin your template since then you'd have the "creature limited" skills. You see the point? Having Scout and Ranger (currently) limited to creature-only is very, very imbalancing. Having Scout limited to creature-only after the Ranger revamp is still unfair IMHO, and having Ranger traps limited to humanoid only simply takes this issue and keeps it in place for us, just flipped 180 degrees from creature-only to humanoid-only now.
When anyone else points their gun at a critter and fires, they don't get told that their weapon or special only works on humanoids. This has been something Scouts & Rangers have struggled with and disliked immensely- for a long time now. It doesn't make sense to say that you'd try and skin a humanoid (unless you're a leexard hunting wookies I guess), but it ALSO doesn't make sense that a mesh trap that can slow or stop a rancor or a krayt doesn't do a blessed thing when thrown at that wee little bothan or rodian over there.
AragornSoS wrote:
When anyone else points their gun at a critter and fires, they don't get told that their weapon or special only works on humanoids. This has been something Scouts & Rangers have struggled with and disliked immensely- for a long time now. It doesn't make sense to say that you'd try and skin a humanoid (unless you're a leexard hunting wookies I guess), but it ALSO doesn't make sense that a mesh trap that can slow or stop a rancor or a krayt doesn't do a blessed thing when thrown at that wee little bothan or rodian over there.
CorethLandwalker wrote:
Frost1977 wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
if our traps work against any target, I'm all for not having specials. But seriously, if Rangers can't use their traps against creatures, yeah, we need at least 2 or 3 specials to give us some fuctionality in all aspects of the game.
if i remember right they said at this point the Ranger traps will only effect NPCs not critters.
And a great many people are hoping they will change their minds. If we aren't getting weapon specials in the Ranger tree, our traps had best be able to affect any target. Otherwise, we're back where we started, except backwards.
Not to burst your bubble or anything but this argument has been made ad nauseum for smugglers un armed pre-req to absolutely no avail so dont get your hopes up in that line of reasoning ((sometimes reason doesnt have as big a place in game design as you might think))
DaveG wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
if our traps work against any target, I'm all for not having specials. But seriously, if Rangers can't use their traps against creatures, yeah, we need at least 2 or 3 specials to give us some fuctionality in all aspects of the game.
I agree. If our traps work on everything, they they are our specials (as with combat medics), but if not, then we should have something we can use against creatures.
Furthermore, if we do end up getting stuck with needing Carbines 4 as a prerequisit, then I think we should have some specials (regardless of what our traps do), simply for the sake of giving some justification for having to take carbines. Otherwise, we'd be forced to take Carbines, but then not be able to do much with them and that's no good.