Ranger Archive

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frightwig wrote:
Here are some other abilities from a RPG that it reminds me of:

"...class skills are Climb, Craft, Demolitions, Disable Device, Gather Information, Hide, Move Silently, Spot..."

Except that RPG isn't DnD.. it's Star Wars... and it's describing the Antarian Ranger prestige class.

They sound similar, as well. I guess it's all in how you look at it. I still see it as a star wars style Ranger though.

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only thing I can say frightwig is that you didn't bold enough stuff.

In the reveamp Rangerscan:

• craft- traps, devices for stealth


• do demolitions (mines)


• disable devices


• Gather information (the stealing aspect)


• hide


• move silently

so yeah, the DnD thing is being overplayed and is really getting silly. We're exactly like Rangers in the EU, Rangers in the Star Wars PnP games...so basically we're finally going to bea STAR WARS ranger, rather than an EQ/WoW Ranger. Sounds good.

I've got a better idea. How about we create a thread entitled "yay! now I'm a true ranger as I can run around invisible and grief others" thread for people like yourself.

But in all seriousness, please realize that there has always been a divide in the ranger community between those that saw rangers as hunters and those that saw rangers as scouts (in the combat sense). Your intolerance of the other point of view is sickening.

Rancorrider4 wrote:

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GoldMemberBria wrote:

Think about it... steal, hide in shadows, disarm traps, what does that remind you of? If you said rogue (or thief) in D&D you earn 100 points, if you said ranger revamp you also earn 100 bonus points. Thank you for playing.

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I have a neat idea....how about putting all the flames and complaints about the new changes in the thread I already started for that specific purpose. No sense cluttering up the good and positive idea's and thoughts in this forum now, when it can all be located for one stop shopping just for you.

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I don't think it's the intolerance of the other view that bothers the para-military side. It's the fact that there are people going "now we're rogues" or "they should change the name, this isn't what a Ranger is". Like you said, it's divided. So you're being intolerant of our viewpoint and calling us rogues, when what we are is the vision of Ranger that some of us had. Isn't it intolerant to say that since some people don't like this vision, that the people that do should have to call themselves by a different name? That somehow, because we got what we thought Ranger should be, that we are somehow no longer worthy of the title of Ranger?

We're all attached to the name Ranger. We're all member of this community. And telling us that we're Rogues, not Rangers, is an insult to those of us who thought that in a Star Wars game, the version of Ranger that is most common in Star Wars lore, should be represented. We're not rogues. We're special ops units that gather intel and use stealth to gain a tactical advantage. We're experts in placing traps, and one day might have a real role in the Galactic Civil War. Rogues do not have a role in the Galactic Civil War. Why? Because they're from another universe altogther.

Understand that many people think that this is exactly what Ranger should ALWAYS have been, and you telling us that we're not really Rangers because you don't like the direction that we're heading in is just as intolerant as you made Oppma out to be.

Message Edited by SmokingFrog on 09-20-200506:38 PM

Message Edited by SmokingFrog on 09-20-2005 06:38 PM

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GoldMemberBria wrote:

Phenix,

This thread was more or less tongue-in-cheek. Obviously there is a lot more to it, but the "stealing" thing seems so far out of whack with what either the "pro-scouts" or "pro-hunters" seem to want that I can't help having a good laugh at that. And given all the other things they've ported from D&D games in recent months, I thought it would be a slightly amusing observation.

I do realize (as I clearly stated) that a lot of rangers always wished they were "scouts", so cool. have fun with it. And as was pointed out, those that want to be hunters no longer need to worry themselves about ranger since most of that stuff (hopefully) will find its way down into the scout boxes, and we'll thus have more skill points to play with. Fine. I guess the dissappointment for myself (and probably others) is that now it's extremely unlikely we'll ever see the types of improvements to the hunting side that we've always campaigned for (i.e. better camps, better harvesting, better tracking etc).

And yes, the idea that we need to remove, and silence, the "pro-hunting" point of view, and stick it neatly in a little thread out of the way of the "pro-scouts" I have a problem with. Rancorridor is not a forum moderator, nor should he pretend to be one.

Message Edited by GoldMemberBria on 09-20-2005 01:01 PM

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While its understandable to be upset that the creature centric side didn't "win" the debate, in all fairness it was the only way that this could have gone. Here are some reasons which have been talked about previously as to why that is:

1. Keeping creature centricity would mean that we would need to be overly powerful against creatures in order to balance our lack of diversity against any other opponent. Killing creatures would become so easy that we would have become FOTM solely for krayt/gorax/gdk killing, and we would have caused the entire creature combat system to be rebalanced in light of ranger dominance, thus making us just as ineffective as we are now.

2. Adding new items into the game to satisfy a creature centricity doesn't make sense from a time-investment point of view. The ideas of creature trophies, creature loot, ranger "missions", special camo suits, hats, hunting blinds, are all well and good but represent a huge investment of developer coding time for what boils down to a single profession. Compare that to what we are getting and really they are not spending a whole lot of time to do this revamp, at least not only for a single profession.

3. Wilderness survival is really what I proposed but realistically speaking, there is not any way to make a class to do that in SWG, because there is no wilderness to survive in. You can walk across Tatooine without dehydration, you can walk barefoot on hot lava, if we had snow you could climb snow covered mountains in nothing but your underwear, etc. If being a ranger meant outdoor recon, wilderness survival where no one else dared to go, that would be ok with me but again you are talking about a major time investment for one class, and on top of that you are punishing all of the rest of the classes to doso.

4. Our "role" of organics collector was effectively taken away by the CU. The only way to give us back the role was to completely redo the level system as well as the modifiers for all levels of scout and ranger and again, we're talking about a time investment for a single class. It ceases to make sense to talk about improving our harvesting when the level of organics currently flowing into the game has driven prices down to under 10 cpu and in many cases under 5 cpu. Hopefully they make master scout have +100 creature harvesting in order to balance things out a bit...

5. Tracking is most likely being removed because its an extremely poor implementation. Kudos to the devs for admitting that, (probably because they weren't the ones who coded the interface), but I dont believe that they intend to completely give up on the idea of tracking, and in the event they find a smooth system that works well for advanced tracking I believe it will end up with rangers, as it is within our realm of "recon" to be able to chart out our enemies positions.

6. Camps could never be improved in any significant way as long as they were thought of in terms of the lonely hunter. A tent and a campfire doesn't really do anything significant and that was reflected in game. If on the other hand camps were reflective of a military temporary encampment then you could conceptually add many benefits of a camp, Calc had a good idea to add bonuses for the group, sorta like a "totem" buff or I thought you could add actual weapons to the camp, either way would be good and Im sure the good ideas dont end there. In the event that something happens with camping there are any number of professions who could pottentially host it, rangers squad leaders, even commandos could see it done very effectively.

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Phenix1050 wrote:

I don't think it's the intolerance of the other view that bothers the para-military side. It's the fact that there are people going "now we're rogues" or "they should change the name, this isn't what a Ranger is". Like you said, it's divided. So you're being intolerant of our viewpoint and calling us rogues, when what we are is the vision of Ranger that some of us had. Isn't it intolerant to say that since some people don't like this vision, that the people that do should have to call themselves by a different name? That somehow, because we got what we thought Ranger should be, that we are somehow no longer worthy of the title of Ranger?

We're all attached to the name Ranger. We're all member of this community. And telling us that we're Rogues, not Rangers, is an insult to those of us who thought that in a Star Wars game, the version of Ranger that is most common in Star Wars lore, should be represented. We're not rogues. We're special ops units that gather intel and use stealth to gain a tactical advantage. We're experts in placing traps, and one day might have a real role in the Galactic Civil War. Rogues do not have a role in the Galactic Civil War. Why? Because they're from another universe altogther.

Understand that many people think that this is exactly what Ranger should ALWAYS have been, and you telling us that we're not really Rangers because you don't like the direction that we're heading in is just as intolerant as you made Oppma out to be.

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QFE

Now then to respond directly to goldmemberbria, I have never proclaimied myself as any type of forum moderator, and having been a Ranger since launch and having been around long enough to train one of our favorite forum folks, Agonthalia as a Master Ranger, I know about the divide in the community. I also realize you've been around for a long time as well, so it surprises me to hear you respond the way you did.

You mean the divide between those who wanted to play a ranger as envisioned by George Lucas and those who wanted to play Aragorn in a Star wars game.

Well those Aragorn lovers who want to be a wilderness outdoors type STILL CAN! It will be called Scout, the rest of us who wanted to play a Star Wars ranger in a Star Wars world now can.

And, how exactly is running around invisible griefing? Is it really that bad not being able to see people running. "Oh my god, there arwe millions of Rangers running about and i CANT SEE THEM! They are griefing!".

Also, is it worse to crawl around while invisible, is that less or more griefing than running around invisible?

Phenix,

This thread was more or less tongue-in-cheek. Obviously there is a lot more to it, but the "stealing" thing seems so far out of whack with what either the "pro-scouts" or "pro-hunters" seem to want that I can't help having a good laugh at that. And given all the other things they've ported from D&D games in recent months, I thought it would be a slightly amusing observation.

I do realize (as I clearly stated) that a lot of rangers always wished they were "scouts", so cool. have fun with it. And as was pointed out, those that want to be hunters no longer need to worry themselves about ranger since most of that stuff (hopefully) will find its way down into the scout boxes, and we'll thus have more skill points to play with. Fine. I guess the dissappointment for myself (and probably others) is that now it's extremely unlikely we'll ever see the types of improvements to the hunting side that we've always campaigned for (i.e. better camps, better harvesting, better tracking etc).

And yes, the idea that we need to remove, and silence, the "pro-hunting" point of view, and stick it neatly in a little thread out of the way of the "pro-scouts" I have a problem with. Rancorridor is not a forum moderator, nor should he pretend to be one.

Message Edited by GoldMemberBria on 09-20-2005 01:01 PM

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Turd_Ferguson523 wrote:

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Starson wrote:

Yep and we will be the only ones who can dule weild weapons

Bah on you negitave boy.

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If they actually did that you have no idea the deafening roar you'd hear out of pistoleers. I bet they could outdo the Jedi regarding that topic. Not a slam on them, I think pistoleers should get it if anyone. But if both get it, then I don't see the issue.

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Yea I was just jokeing, what would be nice if it was Obi's reward in the new expansion. They have been testing it on the dancers. I am sure it will be for all one handed weapons.

heheheh I am just starting all kinds of trouble (dev's if I guessed right pls don't ban me, it really was a guess)

Yours may be tongue-in-cheek, but it is something I've heard ad-naseum since I started reading the feedback thread. It's been said, there are similarities, sure. But we are unique. I guess the biggest problem here is semantics, as Calc has said. In the real world, U.S. Army Rangers scout ahead of the other troops. You could call them scouts or your could call them rangers. In fantasy lore, Rangers scout the wilderness. you could call them scouts or your could call them rangers.

It's all a matter of opinion. I'm just glad theres a special-forces style troop in the game, and I'm glad that Rangers got stealth. But let's not fight amongst ourself...or I lock all the liquer cabinets and empty all the beer. and trust me, you don't want to see these forums when THAT happens. it's like a feeding frenzy. Hakai will eat your skull.

I have been a Ranger for most of 2 years (and all of it PvE) and because SOE made us more creature centric, I kinda just rolled with the idea of being a hunter/gatherer. When this revamp was announced I was against the idea of being paramilitary, due to the fact I was forced to play the "D&D" version of a Ranger. That lasted about 5 minutes and when it hit me I realized that this is a great thing for us Rangers. It gives us a completely new dimension in this game. I now have an interest in participating in the GCW because of it. Also like it has been pointed out, if you still wish to be thehunter/gatherer you can still be a MasterScout since most of the abilities and mods from the current Ranger build will be moved down there.

RANGERS FOR TEH WIN!!!!!!

I find it interesting that people are using the Antarian Ranger an a rebuttal against the idea that the upcoming ranger upgrade is changing SGW Rangers into D&D Rogues. Everything that has been referenced in this thread describing Antarian Rangers has come from the WotC Star Wars role playing game source books. I'm sorry to say, but the WotC d20 version of the PnP Star Wars RPG is hardly a reliable source of inspiration to draw from. The whole game seems like D&D in space to me, and pales in comparison to the original Star Wars RPG.

Is there any EU reference to Antarian Rangers that describes these same abilities?

Don't misunderstand, I support the idea of changing Rangers into an actual military recon unit as opposed to a fantasy-based Ranger (ie. tree-hugging, animal/wilderness-centric). The only thing that bugs me about the proposed changes is the stealing. What place does that have in a military recon unit? I fear the new rangers will become the ultimate loot wh0res.Go to Dath, camo up and steal whatever you can from Nightsisters. Looting without combat just seems wrong for some reason... But maybe thats just me.

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Idahe wrote:

The only thing that bugs me about the proposed changes is the stealing.What place does that have in a military recon unit?

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Don't take this as a one time even either. The platoon I was in had a real world mission. We provided a Military SWAT team for the Washington DC area. So we had a multitude of skills to employ and we always got great training. We took seriously sneaking and peaking.

As far as explosvies being the sole domain of commandos, Again I beg to differ. The main persojn tasked with blowing stuff up is not the Commando its the Combat Engineer\Sapper for our British cousins.

But as a Militray Scout I was expected to know how to classify a bridge so I could effectively place a demo charge to render the bridge unsable. Were we commandos or Combat Engineers no but we had alot of training.

So the revamp fits into the role of Ranger quite well. Coupled with Commando, Squad Leader, or Bounty Hunter Ranger skills are force multipliers and should be used as such.

Going hunting how can being a Ranger not help take down a Krayt or GDK. It only gets better with time and seeing the final product at release.

Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-21-2005 07:35 AM