Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
Jaeryk
Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:57 pm
#14
DaveG wrote:
Apart from attack/defence skill mods, what do I get out of squad leader? The only Squad Leader abilities are group buffs. To date, Ranger doesn't have any unique combat abilities (trapping aside), and for the individual, neither does Squad Leader. So, what's in it for me?
While I love the idea of being able to help others, If I'm going to spend so many skill points, I want some combat abilities I can use for myself.
Conclusion; a new/merged profession needs to be more than just Ranger+SquadLeader.
If they keep the mods as they are here's one example (MBH/MR/44xx Rifleman)
Burst Run Efficiency +70
Camouflage +100
Camping +100
Creature Harvesting +150
Creature Knowledge +100
Creature To-Hit Bonus +25
Foraging +100
General Ranged Accuracy +160
General Ranged Speed +55
Group Burst Run Efficiency +60
Group Melee Defense +30
Group Ranged Defense +30
Group Terrain Negotiation +60
Mask Scent +100
Melee Defense +165
Ranged Defense +240
Rescue +50
Rifle Accuracy +85
Rifle Defense +20
Rifle Speed +30
Steady Aim Bonus +10
Terrain Negotiation +95
Trapping +100
Volley Fire Bonus +10
Not to mention the SL specific weapons!
Kinshi
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:05 pm
#15
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
That's a fine list of examples you gave, however, I don't know about the local guides being leaders of soldiers...they might have guided soldiers through the countryside, but I doubt they were issuing combat orders.
As far as the in game skills the two professions have, we are not a very good fit.
I am still unsure of my feelings on this. My initial reaction is to NOT give this much creedance. The devs, at Fan Fest, are going to try to nicely address everything that is said to them. They aren't going to tell someone that their idea is bad, they are going to "take it under advisement." In other words, I think with the little information that was given at FF (also remember that people post thier own versions of what was said), the devs were trying to nicely blow the questioner off.
My kneejerk reaction is to say, no way, but it would really depend on how they did it, IF they did it.
I can relate to the kneejerk reaction, its natural, We all adopted the 'Ranger Lifestyle' and anything less than a total revamp on the surface does not seem "ranger-ish". We all would prefer Ranger to get reworked but again it boils down to what we can really expect. (we basically have a Champange appetite on a beer budget, and SOE controls the budget). Ranger/SL offers a LOT more than either profession has now on its own, and to me, the reasone for keeping them apart seem esoteric at best.
I think what would help flesh this idea out more is to peice together a sample of what a 'Master Pathfinder' skill tree could look like. That may help better illustrate how the SL & Ranger lines fir together (Ill make that my homework assignment, that is producing a sample "Master Ranger" template as a proof of concept of how Ranger an SL could go together.)
Historical Note:
As far as local guides, look into the Revolutionary War and the French and Indian Wars..very often the native guides would give advice and pseudo-orders regarding comabt against other native tribes. The officers who were smart listend to them ebcause they knew far more about their oppents and the area than they did (the Officer would still give the orders, but the guide, in essence, gave the orders to the officer. If the officer didnt listen, they died and the guide faded into the forest. If they listend they lived, wil little casualties suffered (Watch "Last of the Mohicans" for a Hollywood example of this) - Hawkeye/Nathaniel Poe is another good example of a"Ranger" :-) - he took charge of the group and led them all out of danger. The character of Magua is also another example.
AgonThalia
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:11 pm
#16
I honestly do not know what to say about this....
one one hand, its the blend of para-military ranger that a lot of us want...
on the other hand, part of the mystique of ranger is surviving on our wits... in the wild and alone... not leading troops.
these diametrically opposed views are both attractive and viable. however, in the sw universe, i think that the paramilitary version of ranger might be better in the long run.
if they fix both professions, merge them, we could actually emerge stronger than ever...
we could lead troops when we wanted to, and when the battle is over, retreat to the mountains and smear dirt over our naked bodies.....
thanks calc... now i have that image in my head.
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:16 pm
#17
AgonThalia wrote:
thanks calc... now i have that image in my head.
Just doing my part to taint the masses .
BioEngine
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:16 pm
#18
AgonThalia wrote:
I honestly do not know what to say about this....
one one hand, its the blend of para-military ranger that a lot of us want...
on the other hand, part of the mystique of ranger is surviving on our wits... in the wild and alone... not leading troops.
these diametrically opposed views are both attractive and viable. however, in the sw universe, i think that the paramilitary version of ranger might be better in the long run.
if they fix both professions, merge them, we could actually emerge stronger than ever...
we could lead troops when we wanted to, and when the battle is over, retreat to the mountains and smear dirt over our naked bodies.....
thanks calc... now i have that image in my head.
Yes, but we obtain a harvesting bonus while grouped, and don't tell me the HTFB is only supposed to be eye candy for "our eyes only." 
I agree, this would give us what we need in the area of combat-related skill mods and abilities to be a very very preferable asset in a group.
AgonThalia
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:17 pm
#19
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Just doing my part to taint the masses
So right before i leave work and go home... i have to have that image in my stupid head.... bleh!
As for the idea, if its done well, with the support and interaction of the SL and Ranger communities, then i think it would be fantastic... if its a slipshod merging of 2 professions, then i would probably be very annoyed.
AgonThalia
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:19 pm
#20
BioEngine wrote:
Yes, but we obtain a harvesting bonus while grouped, and don't tell me the HTFB is only supposed to be eye candy for "our eyes only."
I agree, this would give us what we need in the area of combat-related skill mods and abilities to be a very very preferable asset in a group.
of course not, i was speaking specifically in a "mystique" or a perception of the ranger, rather than how it should be. 
thanks BioEngine... youre keeping me honest
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:36 pm
#21
It would make you well suited to smear mud all overthe (sometimes naked) bodies of your soldiers helping you killing and skinning animals.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I just want to know, how running around in the wilderness, smearing mud all over my (sometimes naked) body and killing and skinning animals makes me well suited for leading a group of soldiers? Conversly, I would like to know how leading a group of soldiers makes me well suited to running around in the wilderness, smearing mud all over my (sometimes naked) body and killing and skinning animals.
BioEngine
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:37 pm
#22
PWND!
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
It would make you well suited to smear mud all overthe (sometimes naked) bodies of your soldiers helping you killing and skinning animals.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I just want to know, how running around in the wilderness, smearing mud all over my (sometimes naked) body and killing and skinning animals makes me well suited for leading a group of soldiers? Conversly, I would like to know how leading a group of soldiers makes me well suited to running around in the wilderness, smearing mud all over my (sometimes naked) body and killing and skinning animals.
Yeraze
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:38 pm
#23
Hi guys, n00b to the ranger board, but Veteran SL.
Personally, I think the idea is interesting, but i'm hesistant to lend support to it. Being honest, I want to know how this helps Squad Leaders. With us being the "less broken" of our two professions, I don't see it bringing much to us as camps are broken/pointless, harvesting is kinda a joke, and Camo is something I haven't seen used since before Player Cities. Sure we bring a few (very few) nifty abilities to the Rangers, but what do SL's get in return?
The idea is interesting though, and worth talking about. But I definately think a merger of our two profs should not preclude some basic & effective fixes first.
Personally, I think the idea is interesting, but i'm hesistant to lend support to it. Being honest, I want to know how this helps Squad Leaders. With us being the "less broken" of our two professions, I don't see it bringing much to us as camps are broken/pointless, harvesting is kinda a joke, and Camo is something I haven't seen used since before Player Cities. Sure we bring a few (very few) nifty abilities to the Rangers, but what do SL's get in return?
The idea is interesting though, and worth talking about. But I definately think a merger of our two profs should not preclude some basic & effective fixes first.
Owen-Lars
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:42 pm
#24
For those that have read any of the proposals ive writen up youll probably of noticed that i have a lot of pathfinder, group leadership and group support abiliities in there. Ive always liked the idea of a close relationship between SL and Ranger and many times questioned why SL shouldnt just be integrated into ranger.
Pathfinding and survival i think come hand in hand and although it wouldnt be the best solution i certainly wouldnt be devastated if sl got integrated into ranger and a sort of hybrid profession is born.
I knew there would be a lot of negatives towards this suggestion and im happy to sit on the fence with it. On the one hand id love ranger to go off on its own but on the other hand most of the ideas i would want for ranger also lay in the SLarea and i could see a great benefit of merging the professions.
I supose it just goes down to what you would like to see from ranger. If the two professions merged i would like to see:
Pathfinding (Stealth, Intel Gathering, TN, GTN, Tracking)
Leadership (Tactics, Leadership, Group Buffs)
Fortifications (Combat Camps, Extraction)
Survival(Ground/Thrown Traps, Harvesting)
Obviously just brain storming but you get the idea. Essentially id be happy with a full on ranger revamp but im sceptical if they will address us properly and just fix a few things instead. Merging SL with Ranger and adding things to the new profession instead of working on both would not be the end of the world and i think give avery engaging and exciting profession.
Nemo0
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:50 pm
#25
I would personally rather see the two professions stay separate. I have spent a long time with both professions (on the order of a year as an MSL and even longer than that as an MRanger on my main, with occasional swapping to other templates) and, while similar, I have always treated them as different playstyles.
The Ranger side of me was a leader but in a much different sense than my SL side. For SL, I almost always wanted to stay close to my group. If I didn't know what my group was doing, I felt I was doing my job wrong (I almost never used to buff so I actually had to pace my skills). On the other hand, my Ranger side was usually off alone for fairly long stretches of time (whether or not I was grouped). I would use my skills to scout out the nearby area and prepare it for my group mates' arrival. Tracking, camo, and TN allowed me to find the target and I then would set up a camp and wait for the others to show up. During this time, I would use my creature knowledge to make sure they knew what they were getting into. If ground traps were added (or some sort of faction base defense nullification), I could also do this while waiting for them to show up. During combat, I would switch to SL mode (and maybe throw a few traps).
While the two are similar, they always led me to a different mindset. I can see ways that combining the two is beneficial but I really think there is enough potential for both professions to be made useful, unique, and fun without resorting to that. Ranger made sure a group survived and found what they needed. Squad Leader made sure that the group made use of every advantage it had.
I wouldn't cry if they merged the professions but I would consider it another oversimplification and an easy way out.
The Ranger side of me was a leader but in a much different sense than my SL side. For SL, I almost always wanted to stay close to my group. If I didn't know what my group was doing, I felt I was doing my job wrong (I almost never used to buff so I actually had to pace my skills). On the other hand, my Ranger side was usually off alone for fairly long stretches of time (whether or not I was grouped). I would use my skills to scout out the nearby area and prepare it for my group mates' arrival. Tracking, camo, and TN allowed me to find the target and I then would set up a camp and wait for the others to show up. During this time, I would use my creature knowledge to make sure they knew what they were getting into. If ground traps were added (or some sort of faction base defense nullification), I could also do this while waiting for them to show up. During combat, I would switch to SL mode (and maybe throw a few traps).
While the two are similar, they always led me to a different mindset. I can see ways that combining the two is beneficial but I really think there is enough potential for both professions to be made useful, unique, and fun without resorting to that. Ranger made sure a group survived and found what they needed. Squad Leader made sure that the group made use of every advantage it had.
I wouldn't cry if they merged the professions but I would consider it another oversimplification and an easy way out.
Kinshi
Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:55 pm
#26
Yeraze wrote:
Hi guys, n00b to the ranger board, but Veteran SL.
Personally, I think the idea is interesting, but i'm hesistant to lend support to it. Being honest, I want to know how this helps Squad Leaders. With us being the "less broken" of our two professions, I don't see it bringing much to us as camps are broken/pointless, harvesting is kinda a joke, and Camo is something I haven't seen used since before Player Cities. Sure we bring a few (very few) nifty abilities to the Rangers, but what do SL's get in return?
The idea is interesting though, and worth talking about. But I definately think a merger of our two profs should not preclude some basic & effective fixes first.
Hi, glad to see SLs in on the discussion :-)
You have a VERY valid question..whats in it for Squad Leaders...
First off, I dont see SLs as losing anything they already have by such a profession merge. You get what you have PLUS you get what Rangers have.
Now, why would a SLwant what Rangers have?
Camo..it is very useful and is still widely used in the profession, and is useful against both NPC and creatures (it needs some tweaking but it is effective). Also it keeps the creatues off of you..lkast thing you need when killing stormtroops is to have hurrtons chewing on you.
The High Tech Field Base, Every squad needs a base of operations, not to mention the innate healing bonuses the camp grants plus the ability to rapidly deploy mounts and vehicles in the field. (and the abilty to craft supplies as needed using the crafting stations provided by the camp)
Tracking...Ranger Area track and track the movements of NPCs & Players out to 512m..every leader needs to know the movements of his enemies
The innate Ranger terrain negotiation and burst run abilities. Charge up the hills even faster!
Battle Armor certification
Again this will be clearer once I can show everyone a example of what a combined Ranger/Squad LEader template would look like, and what skills might fit where.