Ranger Archive
Thread: Conceal V2.0
Ok...
Here is the last thread containing an approach to completely revise the /conceal command:
This thread should center on the following question:
Should we push for original implemenation of /conceal to be extended into humanoid aspects, knowing full well that invisibilityin PvPwill probably never be implemented by this development team?
- Hence named the Old System
Or should we push for a different method of concealment, that has a chance of extending in the PvP environment, but does not provide the benefit of invisibility that /maskscent provides?
- Hence named the New System
Recognize that the New System does not have to be the one I outlined in the last thread..
I need to know where the community stands regarding this question, before I put anymore effort into a new method that will not be widely accepted.
Thoughts?
[Edit: forgot to change the link at the top again. 
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Message Edited by NRaas on 01-10-2004 03:08 PM
My vote would be for doing away with conceal altogether and actually giving us something useful (like critical hit ability while hunting). Seriously, mask scent at the master scout level is very very powerful as it is. Trying to "one up" that, and devoting an entire branch of the ranger tree to improving on that is a total waste. Even is it (a) never ever ever broke (b) worked in pvp (c) did not require us to use up any resources to use and (d) worked on every NPC I'd still say it would not even be close to a worthwhile expenditure of 14 skill points given that we already have mask scent and that mask scent is so easy and convenient to use, and so reliable.
"My vote would be for doing away with conceal altogether and actually giving us something useful (like critical hit ability while hunting)."
A better philosophy to have would be to ask for the critical hit ability and a change to conceal, as we rightfully deserve both skills. 
Anyways, it is doubtful that the developers would chuck out all theassets they have already put into the conceal system, so throwing it all out is probably a non-starteranyways.
[Edit: Darn tab button ]
Message Edited by NRaas on 01-10-2004 03:27 PM
Cool, then make it a "freebe" as part of another branch of rangering. My point is simply that I have a hard time imagining anyone in their right mind making the decision to spend 14 skill points into improving on their mask scent ability, particularly with what's been proposed so far when they could use those skill points so much more effectively elsewhere (ANYWHERE else). And I'd also hate to see our developers spending a whole bunch more development time on this.
NRaas wrote:
A better philosophy to have would be to ask for the critical hit ability and a change to conceal, as we rightfully deserve both skills.
Cool, then make it a "freebe" as part of another branch of rangering.
...
And I'd also hate to see our developers spending a whole bunch more development time on this.
So you're saying take out the entire branch? The devs spent plenty of time developing the branch, I highly doubt they'd scrap it. Adding an entire new branch would require much more development time then simply changing what's already there. Besides everyone has different opinions with what's "worthwhile", I would consider it "worthwhile" with the proposed changes. So apparently some of us aren't in our "right minds" for liking this idea. Considering they probably wouldn't take out the branch, and we wouldn't be "invisible" to npcs, how would you change conceal to be worthwhile?
LOL I just got done posting the following in your previous thread. Here is my vote. If the Devs are for sure going to take away the current /conceal vs NPC then lets propose something like what I have written below.
1) /conceal only gives us a "LARGE" negative to hit, against us. From BOTH NPC and animals. Add the need for some poly into it, so we can use it in cities. This is for two reasons. a. The new modifier is useful in PvP finally. Most PvP happens in cities. b. A skillfull ranger of any genre you look at is skillful in stealth "in general" not just outdoors.
2) We can apply it to others. The To Hit mod is static, going up as you progress in ranger. ** It's effectivness needs to be based on the camo skill, and this determines, as now, whether it is broken by your enemies. If not broken the mod still stays, if it is, then the mod goes away.(One NPC breaking it is going to point you out to the others, Animals will do same, and most are melee so others will see where it's attacking)
3) Mask Scent can also be used at same time. (They need different symbols, so change the one for /conceal so we dont see 2 noses)
4) We have the /sneakattack skill added. This can only be done by rangers, and can only be done if you are /concealed.(balances it that we cant use it all the time,since need to be/concealed and that costs resources) This /sneakattack is for first strike attacks only. This can be implemented easiely, by coding it so you can't do it if you are already in combat. It will only work for the first attack, since you are not in combat at the time you hit the commnad. If you try it durring combat, you get message, as some other functions do now, "you cant do this while in combat." Yes this means that if combat ends with the first mob, and we go back to the second one, we can use our sneak attack, again, on it. But of course, that means we went back into hiding and snuck up on it.Natural. This Sneak attack needs to be significant, like x4 damage at least, and only at Master Ranger. Gives Master something cool you worked for and keeps dabblers from getting something so powerful.
** Putting this into one line in ranger will give it to dabblers. If there is a problem with this, then consider spreading that negative to hit mod across the ranger profession. Same as the changes made to CH for pet levels and number of pets out at once.
So what do you all think? Sound reasonable?
Squidwalker ideas:
1. I agree with most of this. But there are two conflicting ideas with /conceal while in cities. Some say that it shouldn't work in cities because that would not go along with "Master Outdoorsman" and is more suited to other professions such as commando or a nonexistant "Spy" profession. Others say that since it's an advanced technological era that you should be able to /conceal in cities. I am completely torn with this one and can see both views. So more debate needs to be done here. Bottom line tho, we need a singular path with which to show our ideas to the devs, ideas which the devs would agree on. So concealing in cities is questionable considering we are a nature type profession.
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. I agree but I do think that to be fair it's better to have /sneakattack1 and /sneakattack2 or something. This game is all about dabbling. So /sneakattack1 somewhere in the wayfaring branch and /sneakattack2 in Master ranger would seem better.
Good ideas.
My vote is sorta both
If we can convince the Devs to leave it working on NPCs then I like the skill as is, with the only possible want is some PvP use for it. I would love for that to be some limited radar invis, but even some form of range/melee defense modifiers would be nice, good for PvE too.
If the Devs are hell bent on removing NPCs from its use then I dont see how you cannot completely scrap /conceal because its would be mostly useless.
The problem of course is that its as unlikely as hell freezing over that the devs will actually give us a definitive yes or no to NPCs after we present reasons why it should remain... likely it will jsut get implimented and long before any other fixes will come to the profession.
Cul
If camo isn't going to work on NPC's, then let's continue to have it work like maskscent, but buff it another way. Let it apply a negative modifier to hit, or have it tie in with a sneak attack ability, sort of how /takecover and /concealshot work together for riflemen.
The bottom line is that I'd really like to continue to be able to apply it to others.
4. I agree but I do think that to be fair it's better to have /sneakattack1 and /sneakattack2 or something. This game is all about dabbling. So /sneakattack1 somewhere in the wayfaring branch and /sneakattack2 in Master ranger would seem better.
TerasBaham, I like this idea better, nice addition to my ideas.
If the devs can give us something else that is good and unique to PvP, then I'm OK with /conceal only working outside of cities. But it seems like a good thing for us to have in PvP, obviously useful, to both us and any fello troops we are with in combat. The Ranger is a support class, and what better way to support your faction members then to give them all a defensive boost? And it's not like it's free, we need to make these camo kits still, and use one on each player.
Thinking about it some more though, the city really is the BH and Commando arena. The PvP action at bases and a lot of raids, and factional missionsare condidered the wilderness. Just cities we would not be an advantage to. So I guess it wouldn't be a major draw back to not be able to /conceal in the cities.