Ranger Archive

I heard about your proposal for Ranger changes and I stopped bothering right toward the beginning when you said that /conceal should not make us invisible.

Why??

Stealthers are an integral part of any combat force. You need people to perform recon missions and be able to get in and out of situations silently. Honestly, that is precisely the character I wanted to play. In the absense of a stealther class of any sort, I have 0 interest in the GCW.

In beta, this is exactly what I thought the point of camo kits was supposed to be. Theconcept of aRanger is that of a stealther. Throughout historythis has been the case.Anywhere you see them in literature, the Ranger is an elite outdoorsman with a honed ability to track and move silently and unseenthrough the wilderness. In real life, guerilla fightersdeveloped theirtalents for surviving in the wilderness to win battles through tactics.

You realize it would be EASIER to hide from a person than it would be from an animal right?

The way I assumed it would work (because how could it work any other way?) is that NPCs and Players would have the same chance to break a Ranger's concealment just as a creature has a chance. We would not only be invisible, but disappear from the radar. There are many ways to counteract this ability...

• Create an engineering(DE orArmorsmith)schematic such as a multi-optics helmet to increase the chance of breaking /conceal.


• Direct line of sight andshortrange (inside 32m)would severely hamper the ability. Only someone with at least Wayfair IV would have a chance of sneaking up that close.


• Movement is greatly slowed for the ability to work. No more masking while on a speeder.


• Only certain special attacks would be possible from a /concealed state (such as select Rifleman/sniper attacks). Or perhaps none at all as when on a mount.


• And naturally you become visible when inyou attack someone.




• Being attacked would not break the camo because only that one enemy cansee you, not the world. Only fighting back would break the camo.


• Perhaps the /conceal should only come off for 5-10 seconds after an attack is made, giving the hunter/guerilla fighter a chance to hide again.


• Add an auto-pause after that first sneak attack to prevent spec-spamming.


• No matter how it's handled mechanically, a Ranger would only get off one attack beforehe or shebecomes a target.


• Make the skill require more points and/or xpto attain. This way if someone were to spend the points to be proficient enough in this ability to be a threat... it means that they are NOT spending the points elsewhere to be tanks. They will be missing either high def mods, statusdef mods,special attacks, and/or accuracy. It could discourage "dabblers" who only want this skill.




• Perhaps set the xp requirement higher on that branch.


• Perhaps add more pre-reqs to Ranger to offset the ability, such as the First Aid branchor Ranged Support branch. These are just different possibilities to counter it so it would not be imbalancing. Hope it's not too outside the box for the devs to grasp.


• Perhaps move camo bonus and terrain neg into separate branches, so that someone cannot move quickly AND stealth with the same skill.


• Or put crafting of camo kits under Frontiering and keep /conceal where it is.


• Nerf their effectiveness when applied to a non-Ranger. Make them only useful against animals as they are now perhaps.

Ultimately, a Ranger is not meant to be a straight-up-combat class. I realize this. But stealthing alone will not win fights anyway. It is mainly needed togive us the ability to perform recon against the enemy and to get from point A to point B without getting caught.

I seriously cannot understand how a Ranger can be viewed any other way. A Ranger that can't hide in the wilderness just makes no sense.

This is not my call... The development stated in the past that they were not going down the path of invisibility against other players.

I am awaiting confirmation on that stance from Thunderheart.

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As forHumanoid NPCs and conceal, that is another call to be made by the developers.

Currently it is off the table, because they have a creature-centric view of our profession, and possibly for other balance concerns as well (such as Faction NPCs and Troop Pets).

Under the wilderness-centric view, the former issue would vanish... Leaving only the balance issue.

I am awaiting aconfirmation from Thunderhearton whether the developers are steadfast against that as well.

Well I'm not necessarily directing these arguments at you. I'm hoping that they can be communicated to the devs to make them try to think a little more 3-dimensionally. I just wanted to get your attention since you are our conduit to the powers that be.

I need someone to explain this to me... You have a class that can dish out thousands of points damage with one attack. You have another class that can apply diseases. You have yet another professionthat can tame and control a herd of savagerancors or worse without any risk of losing control of them...

But being able to sneak past an enemy player or recon an enemy base is unbalanced.

... yeah.

Basically I'm hoping Thunderheart gives you a more detailed response to your query.

If we can't have PvP... then I hope to God we get to keep NPCs.

One more note... the idea of the ultimate creature hunter is a joke.

A Bounty Hunter is just as effective, if not moreso, against creatures as we are. Their higher damage is just as effective as our traps any day.

In fact... any elite combat prof in conjunction with 4/0/0/0 Scout is "the ultimate creature hunter".

I don't want to play the profession that only serves to provide meat and hide to the crafting community. Because under this "vision" of their's, that's all we are.

"the idea of the ultimate creature hunter is a joke."

Yes, the rest of us consider that the creature-centric ship set to sea a long time ago...With none of the community on board.

The brick wall that most players run into when they play SWG is that they ASSUME things about what the game would be like. When it isn't the way they hoped, all the sudden it is the fault of the developers. That's just not fair.

Yes, some things in this game are broken and need further development, but this game is this game. It is NOT EQ, UO, DAoC or the hundreds of text-based RPGs out there. I've said this before, as NRass knows, that I applaud SWG for NOT making mask scent and camo a skill of invisibility. It would make no sense and would be a very shoddy system if you hit your maskscent hot key and *poof*, you don't show up on the radar any more and the player you were just fighting wonders if you're logged out.

I do agree that camo should work against NPCs with the regular spot checks. I was disappointed when this was not the case and was "fixed" during the last patch. However, I don't think we should be able to dress up in camos and stand unnoticed in front our enemy. Just doesn't make sense to me.

I believe that Rangers should have the ability to conceal themselves from creatures, npc's, and players, and I'm not talking complete invisibility to other players. If our conceal skill check is successful, we should not show up on radar, however we are still visible to the naked eye. In PvP, rangers have no combat bonuses at all. We are fairly worthless with the exception of tracking other players. This would help give us a slight edge. We could do our job as advance scouts or (if you have the rifleman profession) as snipers. Like I've said on the outdoorsman thread, I believe that is a part of what a ranger is. We ar supposed to be sneaky and crafty as we can approach wild animals who have senses honed far greater than out own. If we can do that, why can't we hide from npc's and players? It should be easier if anything.

I know the devs are against invisibility, but that's not really what we are asking for. Perhaps that is how it was mistakenly presented to the devs, but that's not it. I'm sure if it is clarified, they would be more amendable to it. I propose a skill check against the ranger's conceal ability versus the player's or the npc's awareness. If the ranger fails, he shows up immediately on radar. If he is successful, he remains hidden from the radar and is allowed to sneak up, and the cycle would continue until one of the skill checks fails and fighting begins. I also don't believe that if it does fail, we should have to wait 15 seconds. I think we should suffer a penalty hit against our to hit and defense and perhaps the defender would get a to hit bonus. However, if we are successful, then we should get a to hit bonus as a surprise attack. What do the rest of you think?

I said it elsewhere, but it seems to fit better in this thread:

We don't need to be physically invisible (ala DAOC infiltrators), just make our dot disappear off the radar so the opposing faction cannot see us. Considering the periperal vision of a character, this would make us 3/4 'invisible' to an opponent who was not turning around to watch their back.

Someone said in another thread that this would require a complete overhaul of the combat system. Well, if you've read the in-development threads from SOE, they are planning a major overheal of the entire combat system! So why not work this in?

Being visible but not having a dot on radar makes it more fun in my mind. With that the ranger has to use clever sneaking means to approach an enemy - hiding in grass, using terrain, etc.

It would seem that a little line of code that says "if ranger, dot = no" should be possible in the overall code that decides where to place dots on the radar.

Good point!

Jabrone (which is the correct spelling, and btw, it's not a compliment in Italian) I gotta disagree with you on the ultimate creature hunt deal.

BHs are too freaking stoopid to make good hunters. Sure, they stand there and kill all sorts of stuff. Only because their weapons and specials let them. Let a decent mob of sharnaff go aggro on a BH, know what ya got --- BH paste. Seen it more than once. They can't spam all the good stuff and stay awake, they go incap on any mobs with decent HAM. One on one, BHs win. 3 on one, no contest, bet the critters.

On the other hand, our traps and our "inherent weaknesses" make us better hunters. We have to use our heads to win. We can't stand there and spray and slay, we come up with inventive ways to beat the mob.

Now, no one said a Ranger with no combat skills was the ultimate anything. The concept would be foolish. What are we gonna do, smack the beasts with our camps til they die of laffing?

Couple any combat profession (well maybe not carbineer, they die way too easy) with Master Ranger, and there is not a creature that given enough time, the right tactics and some luck you can't solo. Including Dark Jedi Masters and Uber Krayts.

The Devs say there are creatures you can't solo. Phooey on that. They just don't understand that statement is not only a challenge, it's a mission statement to me.

My chosen professionsare Master Scout, Master Ranger and Master Pistoleer, with novice medic for healing myself. Put me in armor, buff me, spice me, and see what I can solo. Don't do any of that stuff, and still I will solo most stuff.

and I don't as a rule use armor, spice or buffs

JB

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Lorell wrote:
I believe that Rangers should have the ability to conceal themselves from creatures, npc's, and players, and I'm not talking complete invisibility to other players. If our conceal skill check is successful, we should not show up on radar, however we are still visible to the naked eye.

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This idea has been suggested time and again, and the same response has been given explaining why it is not practical: Players can use packet sniffers to determine when a player not on the radar is near them, thus circumventing the skill and making it worthless. No one has yet provided a satisfactory solution to this problem except to say that no data should be sent to the client at all so the packet sniffer program cannot detect the packets. However, this solution would make Rangers completely invisible.

I don't remember the exact post, but if you do a search for NRaas posts including the words "packet sniffer" you will see this situation discussed many times. In short, its just not practical thanks to cheaters (those who use packet sniffers). And you know there will be people who would use an unfair advantage like a packet sniffer...there always is...

That is a good post Dyne, however I am proposing that the opposing person's skill check be based on awareness not on using some item like a packet sniffer. They might have to tweak the code a little, but they are already doing that anyway. It should be a rangers conceal skill versus the targets awareness. So depending on the skills of players involved, it will be different every time.

Regarding packet sniffers and the ranger dot not appearing on the radar...

That sounds like a technological hurdle, butis it really in practical terms? First off, how many people are really going to know to find a packet sniffer, even if someone here does post about it? Sure some would, but the vast majority would not. Also, wouldn't the packet sniffer be influenced by any other "dots" on the radar around it, like creatures or other characters? Wouldnt they serve as distractions we could use to our favor then?