Politician Archive
Thread: 0 Skill Points =/= No More Improvements
Page 1 of 3
PsychoticChipmunk
Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:20 pm
#1
Could someone in the 'pro-sp cost' party please explain to me the causal connection between skill point expenditure and development attention? Ranger has been almost entirely ignored since the game has been live, so have smugglers and several crafters (primary amongst these being architects which are the backbone of the economy no less) All of these take skill points, more skill points than a master politician no less.
So that more or less counters the belief that you must have something spent in order to get something gained. However lets delve deeper into this beyond shallow pointing of fingers towards other professions.
Now, player cities are a cauldron for interesting events and ideas as well as PvP hotspots and epitomizations of the GCW with city feuds. We are the stomping grounds for greatness in our galaxy if greatness is our goal and ability. We can utilize our skills to make our “zone of control” more powerful in certain respects as well as garner a slight bit of control as to how people can access our cities. This is on top of the aesthetic appeal and prowess that a truly planned and thought out urban plan, with gardens and other décor accents, allows in a war of the wills type way. Our literal, professional skills don’t exactly bring this about though.
- Urban planning takes place in the mind of the creator, not the branch of urban planning our characters hold. The thought that garden A looks good in spot C is mine and mine alone, not the games and the ability to do this is hardly considered powerful in any respect.
- Placing terminals and trainers are simply a means to assist our citizens not confound our enemies or create urban appeal. (as far as groups of trainers being unable to pass off as groups of NPC’s, and the position of terminals not truly controlling people’s movements throughout the town)
- Our ability to levy taxes work on a town to town basis, mine was sales tax only until the bug forced us into donations. Being able to charge people an income tax was worthless and frankly useless to me but I’m sure others found it quite useful for their town.
- Specializations last so long as you wish to keep them and the fact that they require a skill is almost as intangible as it is the requirement of a city level. It may be there but it is only an impotence at the start and proof of a cities stature at the end.
We have nothing beyond our own personal abilities to make player cities something to truly shine and that is not going away. The ability to improve upon a city even more so is certainly something we need to strive for and development would be wise to assist.
Like I said, player cities are the stomping ground for events and activities to occur. The GCW does not exist, on my server, as faction vs. faction. Or at least not in the most common of senses, rather it exists as guild(s) vs. guild(s) and cities vs. cities. You don’t hear of a rebel victory over the empire in Theed nearly as much as you do a FIGHT victory over AXIS in ‘Lake Dread’ for example. (although it always involves groups of multiple guilds) The rebellion and the empire clash swords but the two guilds are personifications of their faction and the cities they fight in are controlled by them. Coronet and Theed are still and always will be major scenes for fights but they don’t have bases to procure bragging rights from. They aren’t truly owned by anyone to show off your ability when clone camping the enemy for hours on their own soil.
Summary and important part for skimmers to read!
That is why we need and will gain a revamp. Not because our skill point investment seems wasted, nor because our abilities as mayor make us fruitless in other aspects of the game, but because our influence in the game goes beyond our skills! We will get the ability to create our own quests, place factional décor and align a city with your side, truly defend our town from griefers because all of this will improve upon the aspects of the game that everyone is involved with. In the long run my character having 66 skill points invested to be a 3/4/4/4 politician does not mean jack, my city being the pivotal point of PvP (picking pickled peppers) on Corellia does.
ToppDog
Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:37 pm
#2
I think the devs are in the midst of an overall shift away from the player city concept. They have been posting threads lately asking players what it would take to getthem back to the NPC cities etc. This is the writing on the wall for player cities I think. Although I like the idea of player cities & have been involved in building 2 of them, they did have an adverse affect on the NPC cities... & that combined with a shrinking player population has made many NPC cities seem like ghost towns.
Personally, I would like to see a compromise between the two. I really like the idea of having instanced condos in the NPC cities where the floorplan deeds could be crafted & purchased from architects. And having them then be instanced would allow any player who wanted one to be able to. I also think the NPC cities might do well to allow the developement of suburbs in designated areas within the city limits. There should also be a way for players to own or rent shops or instanced levels of a mall etc.
This should free up more land for player cities& housing in general... which could greatly benefit from a revamp as well. Ideally those who place houses or build cities should have the ability to work with larger plots of land & be able to landscapre them & place structures on the land itself, such as walls, gardens, pathways, roads, etc. Cities should be designed so that the commerse that takes place in all city structures profits the city & does not leave the game... travel fees & garage fees should go directly into the city fund, as well as taxes from malls, merchant tents, etc. Basically cities should be designed so they can turn a profit or at least pay for themselves... it is not right that many politicians are forced to keep the city running by paying for everything themselves. I know many are very dedicated & are more than happy to do so, but it's still not right...
This is the beginning of what I'd like to see... but I know how tough this would be to accomplish, so I'm not holding my breath. But I will dream...
MTolwyn
Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:59 pm
#3
The past year has shown that the devs are incompetent of handling the player cities.
Instead of fixing and dealing bugs/exploitsthey just removed those involved abilities
the few things that worked got broken by updates many didn t want to see like
the new voting system or now the maintanence for housing
with the decission to remove SP and AP from the proffession it s just another step to
render politicians worthless. Nearly half the people i know atm, and that s a lot, took up
politician profession to get a cool Warmaster tag. Citizens start to get anyoing because
they all want to run for mayorship to get exp for their tag
And now the increasing efforts to drag people to NPC cities seem just to support
the general opinion that the devs want to eliminate the player cities.
During the past year there have been tons of good and easy to implement ideas for PCs
but they have been all ignored cause devs have been soo busy with Jedi and JTL.
Jedi broke the game and JTL is history. Sure it was nice for the first 2 months. But
now most people just use it for free fast traveling. Many pilot guilds have been disbanded
cause the lack of content is not limited to the ground.
MTolwyn
Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:02 am
#4
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
/citywarn was able to be griefed in so many different ways it wasn't even funny. I don't even get how it got out of the boardroom without people realizing how many jackasses ther are out there who would ruin it.
Yes the reason for removing it has been a group of people liking to grief others. But now we are open to griefing. I ve seen in often that reb/imp are standing in cities of opposite faction yelling for hours with afk macros to grief the citizens. Sure you can fill in a ticket and wait a day for some Crs to show up.
The master box, I agree, is a horrible thing however the dual specializations didn't seem like such an awe inspiring thing to have. Wow now we're twice as good in one aspect....so? The specialization of the town should be an add on to it, not the defining factor. I'd rather see the master box with something more interesting.
The housing change is supposed to help people that where out of town for a week and didn't realize their maintenance was low. A good idea, just needs to get some kinks worked out in regards to us. An oversight at best and one that can be remedied.
Thx to the house change our city is not screwed. We have made a major layout change during the past months. But there are stilla fewhouses blocking important areas. The owners stopped playing or left for another server 2-3 months ago. One of the houses, i m admin to, was arround 20% before the patch hit us. Great now we have to wait at least 3-4 months to get those who have left gone. The houses of those playing on other servers will now never vanish.
Sorry but i cannot accept that now a whole city get screwed just to protect people who don t care about paying their buildings on a regular base.
There where a lot of people asking for a new system of voting. One that removed incumbency and non-votes as counting...that's what we got. Now the spread may not have been overwhelmingly in favor of doing this but it was there. Sorry if you dislike it but there where plenty of towns that needed this change to shift leadership etc. and it opens the door for real politics once we get something in our pocket you can debate about. Getting 50 + apathetic people to vote is impossible, getting 10 is realistic. Now my reign is threatened if I piss off enough people. That's a good thing. Now I have to politik my way around if things get tossed in that people have an opinion on.
Yea now you can register 10min before the vote and take over a city easily without any chance to defend it. They said you ll need to register at leasta week before but that s not working. Also you don t always get a mail when someone registers. Also for new politicians who need exp the new system is a mayhem.
with the decission to remove SP and AP from the proffession it s just another step to
render politicians worthless. Nearly half the people i know atm, and that s a lot, took up
politician profession to get a cool Warmaster tag. Citizens start to get anyoing because
they all want to run for mayorship to get exp for their tag
As opposed to rendering it more expansive and available? Politician is now the profession of the masses. If there was actually something to debate within your city do you think there would be people clamoring to be heard and investing their template into it? Nope. So you'd stay on as enlightened despot because you have 15 + skill points to spare. However this is ignoring just how low of a barrier 15 sp and the apprenticeship req actually was. It wasn't the great wall of China, it was an uneven sidewalk tile. The ability to get on the ballot was there with ease, now it's there with even more ease. End result? More people can get involved with politics when there are politics to get involved with. Should they be ignored since they consider effective PvP power to be more important then effective mayoral power? Does this mean we should ignore all the 0/1/2/0 mayors since they obviously weren't as caring for their city?
I m master politician and till a few days i had to surrender 77 points for it. But i did it gladly. This sorted out dedicated politicians from wannabe s.
As per getting a tag, did you tell them it's going to take 3 years for that to work? Besides what kind of a point is that? My god we won't be able to be distinguished from random people with the same tag 13 months from now! The horror.
I know that you know that. But try to explain that to people who have no idea about it. I had people comming to me , wanting to join my city just to run for mayor to get exp. Sorry but i m not interested in those people here. I want people who are interested in the city and not just in a few hundret exp point s per week
And now the increasing efforts to drag people to NPC cities seem just to support
the general opinion that the devs want to eliminate the player cities.
Increased efforts to drag people to the lesser known NPC cities and out of Coronet, not out of player cities. Do you really think it'd be that awful if the spam got decentralized on Corellia and Doaba saw more then 6 people per hour, and they only land there because it's easier on their computer? I just don't see this new interest in face lifting year anda half old cities into something new as a threat to our cities. I see it as changing the boring landscape around a little bit. They've said we won't get homes in NPC cities pretty much ever so that threat is gone. You can't place a base in a town and I doubt there will be destroyable garrisons so PvP will still be PC based. Merchants will be the same, with a sea of green around Coronet and Theed. So really this is just changing our art folder and that's about it.
Well maybe you re a lucky mayor who hasn t to deal with the CSR monthly cause there are severe bugs and troubles arround your city all the time. And hear promises that devs work on it and fix it.
During the past year there have been tons of good and easy to implement ideas for PCs
but they have been all ignored cause devs have been soo busy with Jedi and JTL.
Jedi broke the game and JTL is history. Sure it was nice for the first 2 months. But
now most people just use it for free fast traveling. Many pilot guilds have been disbanded
cause the lack of content is not limited to the ground.
Jedi where destroying the economy with holo-grinders. That had to be redone and it had to be redone in a hurry or we'd all be trading holos (stones of jordan anyone) instead of credits. And JtL was considered part of the original game.
Yea i ve been in BETA of swg and remember when they told us, that JTL is nearly finished , just needs some polishing and bug fixing, and that no player will anyway be able to raise the money for the ship in the first month. rofl
Galaxies was half finished without it, just like it was 1/3rd finished without mounts, vehicles, and player cities at launch. I still find it fun as a break from the ground game. When it gets monotonous I move to the other one, the real world, or halflife 2. As per the content, yeah I hear a lot of complaints on the forums about noone being overt in space. I never seem to hear people planning dogfights though to add some spice to space. It shouldn't be about destroying a Corvette up top, but destroying another ace. Pex and Co. are working on tools to provide assistance and live events up in space so lets see how that pans out before we condemn it as a barren wasteland and move on.
But right now lets forget about that. You've said there are many easily implemented ideas. Sorry but unless you've seen under the hood there is no way to call anything easy. Hell how long does it take to fix a typo? So while we may think it's a 12 minute job it might take 2 weeks and a team of 4 to do. 2 weeks and 4 code monkeys who where working on: the first idea of the CURB (HAM and creature revamp plus ideas to tweak the system), droid focus, jedi revamps, JtL, crafting rework that was recalled the next day, myriad of fixes, the new CURB that's close to alphaetc. etc. etc. I'm sorry but you yourself pointed out how cramped their schedule was. I just gave a slightly more detailed overview that's skipping a bunch of stuff since it's off the top of my head.
I m Software developer for nearly 5 years now, working on big data systems. I ve planed systems, i ve coded some and also did maintanence and even CSR for some. So i think i have an idea about how much work changes on large systems are.
Btw do you remember when they told us JTL will not effect the development of the ground? It was a lie, TH himself had to commit months later that the devs where moved from ground to JTL to get it done.
Fact is that SWG was pushed out way too early. Everone in BETA said that, even the devs. But did the managers listen? No. Why? Cause they wanted to get money for their investments. The result is a large BETA 4, where people have to pay to test it.
You're right, they could have easily squeezed us in there at one point. They also could have squeezed in smugglers or rangers or anyone. They didn't. When they do decide to focus on us then yay, but just because they're focusing on someone else doesn't mean we're doomed to invisibility in their eyes.
TheLemming
Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:43 am
#5
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
As opposed to rendering it more expansive and available? Politician is now the profession of the masses. If there was actually something to debate within your city do you think there would be people clamoring to be heard and investing their template into it? Nope. So you'd stay on as enlightened despot because you have 15 + skill points to spare. However this is ignoring just how low of a barrier 15 sp and the apprenticeship req actually was. It wasn't the great wall of China, it was an uneven sidewalk tile. The ability to get on the ballot was there with ease, now it's there with even more ease. End result? More people can get involved with politics when there are politics to get involved with. Should they be ignored since they consider effective PvP power to be more important then effective mayoral power? Does this mean we should ignore all the 0/1/2/0 mayors since they obviously weren't as caring for their city?
As per getting a tag, did you tell them it's going to take 3 years for that to work? Besides what kind of a point is that? My god we won't be able to be distinguished from random people with the same tag 13 months from now! The horror.
Here's what I've seen. Most of the people talking about tags and saying that mayor would be "cool to try" don't really have any interest in mayor. They spend most of their time out grinding for jedi or the such, and usually have to be almost verbally beaten just to come back and vote. But now they can get novice politician on a whim and think that means they would make a good politician.
Here's the base, as I see it. Politician never really required you to "gimp" yourself. It had enough skillpoint cost just to make people put some serious thought into the decision to become a politician. I would say that if you couldn't even work out a template that included the foundation of politician (x12x) you'd be totally lost when it comes to zoning a city, recruiting to maintain city rank, discussing med center vs research center with your citizens, or if a base is the right move for your city.
As for no skill points determining if politician gets ths fixes that it needs...that's another story. You might say that ranger/SL doesn't get fixes now despite requiring skill points, but I would say that we just lost any footing that even put us on equal footing. They can now say that politician is just a sort of bonus class, and since you don't have anything as tangible as SP invested in it you should be happy that anything works.
If you don't buy into that, then at least you might see that they made it into a "hot-potato" profession. Now it can be handed off to others as current mayors get tired of putting up with the bugs that make it difficult (sometimes nearly impossible) to run a city, instead of maintaining it as a full profession . I can see this happening much more now that it will be so much easier to do, with the end result being lots of posts from new mayors asking about info in the stickies rather than useful input/bugs from long term mayors.
FInally, I don't think we've seen the full effect of this change yet. Give it a couple months (elections) and we'll see where we end up. The only thing I'm sure of is that this will not increase discourse as you suggest. Politics works best when there are a few politicians offering representation of different views, and gets chaotic when people start to think that they can just represent themselves since they know best. Politician is not meant to be "for the masses." Politician is supposed to be a profession for the few who are willing to listen to and represent/organize/serve the masses.
Moonkat
Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:25 am
#6
Why are so many people in this forum such pessimists? I love SimCity, it's part of what has made me be able to design an efficient and visually pleasing city layout; but I play this game because it's Star Wars. I Do think bugs of any kind should be a priority, but developing politician into something far beyond what it currently is should not come before the Galactic Civil War and smugglers or quite a few other things that are more key to what this game is. Aside from what doesn't work right about player cities and politician abilities, I think it's really pretty fine the way it is.
TheLemming wrote:
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
As opposed to rendering it more expansive and available? Politician is now the profession of the masses. If there was actually something to debate within your city do you think there would be people clamoring to be heard and investing their template into it? Nope. So you'd stay on as enlightened despot because you have 15 + skill points to spare. However this is ignoring just how low of a barrier 15 sp and the apprenticeship req actually was. It wasn't the great wall of China, it was an uneven sidewalk tile. The ability to get on the ballot was there with ease, now it's there with even more ease. End result? More people can get involved with politics when there are politics to get involved with. Should they be ignored since they consider effective PvP power to be more important then effective mayoral power? Does this mean we should ignore all the 0/1/2/0 mayors since they obviously weren't as caring for their city?
As per getting a tag, did you tell them it's going to take 3 years for that to work? Besides what kind of a point is that? My god we won't be able to be distinguished from random people with the same tag 13 months from now! The horror.
Here's what I've seen. Most of the people talking about tags and saying that mayor would be "cool to try" don't really have any interest in mayor. They spend most of their time out grinding for jedi or the such, and usually have to be almost verbally beaten just to come back and vote. But now they can get novice politician on a whim and think that means they would make a good politician.
If they are better at getting out the vote than you & beat you because of it, that Is part of being a better politician. Being a mayor should never just be a gimme.
Here's the base, as I see it. Politician never really required you to "gimp" yourself. It had enough skillpoint cost just to make people put some serious thought into the decision to become a politician. I would say that if you couldn't even work out a template that included the foundation of politician (x12x) you'd be totally lost when it comes to zoning a city, recruiting to maintain city rank, discussing med center vs research center with your citizens, or if a base is the right move for your city.
If you've never tried to be mayor on your main character, you have no idea about how it gimps you. If you were a master at an entertainer profession and master politician, you were basically screwed when it came to participating in anything because most things in this game require combat. To be a good mayor, you have to have at least 2424 in politician to be able to provide all the basic functions shy of setting city specializations, and that really cut deep.
As for no skill points determining if politician gets ths fixes that it needs...that's another story. You might say that ranger/SL doesn't get fixes now despite requiring skill points, but I would say that we just lost any footing that even put us on equal footing. They can now say that politician is just a sort of bonus class, and since you don't have anything as tangible as SP invested in it you should be happy that anything works.
Politician IS more like being a PA leader. There is no reason why politician should become some great uber profession to help you play any facet of the game. Being a mayor is being a public servant to the citizens of your town. This isn't SimCity.
If you don't buy into that, then at least you might see that they made it into a "hot-potato" profession. Now it can be handed off to others as current mayors get tired of putting up with the bugs that make it difficult (sometimes nearly impossible) to run a city, instead of maintaining it as a full profession . I can see this happening much more now that it will be so much easier to do, with the end result being lots of posts from new mayors asking about info in the stickies rather than useful input/bugs from long term mayors.
You're wrong here. With no skill points taken, this is Less likely to be a hot-potato situation. People passed off being mayor before because they wanted the opportunity to try out the stuff that their citizens would do or couldn't afford to pay for a second account anymore. Now that isn't an issue. Mayor longevity will only increase at this point unless someone quits for other reasons entirely - such as the devs not getting around to fixing & adding on the things that make this game Star Wars and not SimCity.
FInally, I don't think we've seen the full effect of this change yet. Give it a couple months (elections) and we'll see where we end up. The only thing I'm sure of is that this will not increase discourse as you suggest. Politics works best when there are a few politicians offering representation of different views, and gets chaotic when people start to think that they can just represent themselves since they know best. Politician is not meant to be "for the masses." Politician is supposed to be a profession for the few who are willing to listen to and represent/organize/serve the masses.
The thing is this isn't a RP game where you automatically have plus 20 to any roll regarding charisma. You actually have to BE charismatic. You have to Be a diplomat. Skill boxes in politician are Never going to be able to make you better at being mayor, they're only going to be able to provide the hardware, so to speak, of running the city through placing services and structures.
Message Edited by Moonkat on 02-01-2005 08:26 AM
PsychoticChipmunk
Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:05 pm
#7
MTolwyn wrote:
The past year has shown that the devs are incompetent of handling the player cities.
Instead of fixing and dealing bugs/exploitsthey just removed those involved abilities
the few things that worked got broken by updates many didn t want to see like
the new voting system or now the maintanence for housing
/citywarn was able to be griefed in so many different ways it wasn't even funny. I don't even get how it got out of the boardroom without people realizing how many jackasses ther are out there who would ruin it. The master box, I agree, is a horrible thing however the dual specializations didn't seem like such an awe inspiring thing to have. Wow now we're twice as good in one aspect....so? The specialization of the town should be an add on to it, not the defining factor. I'd rather see the master box with something more interesting. The housing change is supposed to help people that where out of town for a week and didn't realize their maintenance was low. A good idea, just needs to get some kinks worked out in regards to us. An oversight at best and one that can be remedied.
There where a lot of people asking for a new system of voting. One that removed incumbency and non-votes as counting...that's what we got. Now the spread may not have been overwhelmingly in favor of doing this but it was there. Sorry if you dislike it but there where plenty of towns that needed this change to shift leadership etc. and it opens the door for real politics once we get something in our pocket you can debate about. Getting 50 + apathetic people to vote is impossible, getting 10 is realistic. Now my reign is threatened if I piss off enough people. That's a good thing. Now I have to politik my way around if things get tossed in that people have an opinion on.
with the decission to remove SP and AP from the proffession it s just another step to
render politicians worthless. Nearly half the people i know atm, and that s a lot, took up
politician profession to get a cool Warmaster tag. Citizens start to get anyoing because
they all want to run for mayorship to get exp for their tag
As opposed to rendering it more expansive and available? Politician is now the profession of the masses. If there was actually something to debate within your city do you think there would be people clamoring to be heard and investing their template into it? Nope. So you'd stay on as enlightened despot because you have 15 + skill points to spare. However this is ignoring just how low of a barrier 15 sp and the apprenticeship req actually was. It wasn't the great wall of China, it was an uneven sidewalk tile. The ability to get on the ballot was there with ease, now it's there with even more ease. End result? More people can get involved with politics when there are politics to get involved with. Should they be ignored since they consider effective PvP power to be more important then effective mayoral power? Does this mean we should ignore all the 0/1/2/0 mayors since they obviously weren't as caring for their city?
As per getting a tag, did you tell them it's going to take 3 years for that to work? Besides what kind of a point is that? My god we won't be able to be distinguished from random people with the same tag 13 months from now! The horror.
And now the increasing efforts to drag people to NPC cities seem just to support
the general opinion that the devs want to eliminate the player cities.
Increased efforts to drag people to the lesser known NPC cities and out of Coronet, not out of player cities. Do you really think it'd be that awful if the spam got decentralized on Corellia and Doaba saw more then 6 people per hour, and they only land there because it's easier on their computer? I just don't see this new interest in face lifting year anda half old cities into something new as a threat to our cities. I see it as changing the boring landscape around a little bit. They've said we won't get homes in NPC cities pretty much ever so that threat is gone. You can't place a base in a town and I doubt there will be destroyable garrisons so PvP will still be PC based. Merchants will be the same, with a sea of green around Coronet and Theed. So really this is just changing our art folder and that's about it.
During the past year there have been tons of good and easy to implement ideas for PCs
but they have been all ignored cause devs have been soo busy with Jedi and JTL.
Jedi broke the game and JTL is history. Sure it was nice for the first 2 months. But
now most people just use it for free fast traveling. Many pilot guilds have been disbanded
cause the lack of content is not limited to the ground.
Jedi where destroying the economy with holo-grinders. That had to be redone and it had to be redone in a hurry or we'd all be trading holos (stones of jordan anyone) instead of credits. And JtL was considered part of the original game. Galaxies was half finished without it, just like it was 1/3rd finished without mounts, vehicles, and player cities at launch. I still find it fun as a break from the ground game. When it gets monotonous I move to the other one, the real world, or halflife 2. As per the content, yeah I hear a lot of complaints on the forums about noone being overt in space. I never seem to hear people planning dogfights though to add some spice to space. It shouldn't be about destroying a Corvette up top, but destroying another ace. Pex and Co. are working on tools to provide assistance and live events up in space so lets see how that pans out before we condemn it as a barren wasteland and move on.
But right now lets forget about that. You've said there are many easily implemented ideas. Sorry but unless you've seen under the hood there is no way to call anything easy. Hell how long does it take to fix a typo? So while we may think it's a 12 minute job it might take 2 weeks and a team of 4 to do. 2 weeks and 4 code monkeys who where working on: the first idea of the CURB (HAM and creature revamp plus ideas to tweak the system), droid focus, jedi revamps, JtL, crafting rework that was recalled the next day, myriad of fixes, the new CURB that's close to alphaetc. etc. etc. I'm sorry but you yourself pointed out how cramped their schedule was. I just gave a slightly more detailed overview that's skipping a bunch of stuff since it's off the top of my head.
You're right, they could have easily squeezed us in there at one point. They also could have squeezed in smugglers or rangers or anyone. They didn't. When they do decide to focus on us then yay, but just because they're focusing on someone else doesn't mean we're doomed to invisibility in their eyes.
PsychoticChipmunk
Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:20 pm
#8
You realize, of course, that we're discussing the game as a whole and the performance of the development team and not the topic at hand. Right? You can take your road I'll be more optimistic, agree to disagree, but it has no tangible bearing on why I made this thread. Would you please tell me why we aren't going to have any focus or any fixes now that our profession is "free" or something to that effect?
MTolwyn wrote:
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
/citywarn was able to be griefed in so many different ways it wasn't even funny. I don't even get how it got out of the boardroom without people realizing how many jackasses ther are out there who would ruin it.
Yes the reason for removing it has been a group of people liking to grief others. But now we are open to griefing. I ve seen in often that reb/imp are standing in cities of opposite faction yelling for hours with afk macros to grief the citizens. Sure you can fill in a ticket and wait a day for some Crs to show up.
/addignore and that problem is solved for your citizens. If you know of a / command that makes me invincible to any and all attacks to prevent getting griefed out of a city by pissy militiamen please let me know. That'd come in pretty handy outside of cities. Also, afk macro'ing and recursive macros are going to be removed so the hour long loops aren't going to work. Eventually.
The master box, I agree, is a horrible thing however the dual specializations didn't seem like such an awe inspiring thing to have. Wow now we're twice as good in one aspect....so? The specialization of the town should be an add on to it, not the defining factor. I'd rather see the master box with something more interesting.
The housing change is supposed to help people that where out of town for a week and didn't realize their maintenance was low. A good idea, just needs to get some kinks worked out in regards to us. An oversight at best and one that can be remedied.
Thx to the house change our city is not screwed. We have made a major layout change during the past months. But there are stilla fewhouses blocking important areas. The owners stopped playing or left for another server 2-3 months ago. One of the houses, i m admin to, was arround 20% before the patch hit us. Great now we have to wait at least 3-4 months to get those who have left gone. The houses of those playing on other servers will now never vanish.
Sorry but i cannot accept that now a whole city get screwed just to protect people who don t care about paying their buildings on a regular base.
Can you accept it to protect someone who just found out his mother died and has to rush out of state for the funeral? Just got into a car accident and is in intensive care and stuck in a hospital bed for a few weeks? Need I go on? The idea is a good one, the implementation needs working and they need to fix the oversight of player cities. Are you telling me that is impossible? That we are now and forever screwed by inactive homes because the dev team shall surely never listen to us. I mean we do, afterall,cost 0 skill points.
There where a lot of people asking for a new system of voting. One that removed incumbency and non-votes as counting...that's what we got. Now the spread may not have been overwhelmingly in favor of doing this but it was there. Sorry if you dislike it but there where plenty of towns that needed this change to shift leadership etc. and it opens the door for real politics once we get something in our pocket you can debate about. Getting 50 + apathetic people to vote is impossible, getting 10 is realistic. Now my reign is threatened if I piss off enough people. That's a good thing. Now I have to politik my way around if things get tossed in that people have an opinion on.
Yea now you can register 10min before the vote and take over a city easily without any chance to defend it. They said you ll need to register at leasta week before but that s not working. Also you don t always get a mail when someone registers. Also for new politicians who need exp the new system is a mayhem.
Yes, experience is few and far between. They should deliver cumulative experience at the end of 1 week and have the election decided at the end of the 3 week cycle. That may end up happening but as it stands it just means your city has a 3 week lame duck period then a massive boom. If you are taking over an established city this isn't that horrible since people can live for 3 weeks without a trainer. If you are starting a new city your residents should be excited to be part of it and get 100% of the vote. Meaning you get 750 more points of experience every 3 weeks then before.
As per the bugs...well yeah they're bugs. They need to be fixed. However would you please tell me why you're running the race with a grand total of 2 votes and expecting it to all go smoothly with 0 risk? In order to beat me at the 11th hour someone will have to get 22 friends in the town to back him. And that's with me never lifting a finger to campaign. I mentioned the new changes when they took effect and asked for people to vote for me in 1 mass mail. If I actually participated in reminding people it'd be a much larger margin. All towns should be something like this, otherwise you're gambling with the mayorship and sometimes you come up craps.
with the decission to remove SP and AP from the proffession it s just another step to
render politicians worthless. Nearly half the people i know atm, and that s a lot, took up
politician profession to get a cool Warmaster tag. Citizens start to get anyoing because
they all want to run for mayorship to get exp for their tag
As opposed to rendering it more expansive and available? Politician is now the profession of the masses. If there was actually something to debate within your city do you think there would be people clamoring to be heard and investing their template into it? Nope. So you'd stay on as enlightened despot because you have 15 + skill points to spare. However this is ignoring just how low of a barrier 15 sp and the apprenticeship req actually was. It wasn't the great wall of China, it was an uneven sidewalk tile. The ability to get on the ballot was there with ease, now it's there with even more ease. End result? More people can get involved with politics when there are politics to get involved with. Should they be ignored since they consider effective PvP power to be more important then effective mayoral power? Does this mean we should ignore all the 0/1/2/0 mayors since they obviously weren't as caring for their city?
I m master politician and till a few days i had to surrender 77 points for it. But i did it gladly. This sorted out dedicated politicians from wannabe s.
Congrats, I was a 3/4/4/4 politician until a few days ago when I mastered at 0 cost.(the crafters didn't really care for their specializations as much as the combatants) This sorted me out from the wannabe's that only used 0/1/2/0. How about you, me, and Pappi make all decisions for the dev's now since we obviously care more about our towns than anyone else possibly would? I mean we spent 10's of skill points right? Isn't that the only way to prove it? Could you please tell me how a skill point cost separated me from a 'wannabe' mayor? Please enlighten me, because I always thought it was my urban plan, diplomacy, and friendliness that won my citizens over. Not my ineffectiveness at combat but masterful garden placements.
As per getting a tag, did you tell them it's going to take 3 years for that to work? Besides what kind of a point is that? My god we won't be able to be distinguished from random people with the same tag 13 months from now! The horror.
I know that you know that. But try to explain that to people who have no idea about it. I had people comming to me , wanting to join my city just to run for mayor to get exp. Sorry but i m not interested in those people here. I want people who are interested in the city and not just in a few hundret exp point s per week
I did, he still wanted to do it so I gave him my blessing and he's now got 4 votes in total in order to get a skill box in 3 weeks. Noone has ever come to me asking to join the town to grind up politician. It's a ludicrous idea considering how long it'd take, risking losing the city spot just so you can place a mission terminal on the first day. And if you're only doing it for the tag I'll tell you how long it's going to take and whether you would be willing to deal with everything I have to deal with on a daily basis (well a nutshell of what I do) if they where to win. If they still wanted to try it then go right ahead. I am confident in being able to get more support then any competition. Aside from that, noone in my city would chose to destroy it for anything, so what do I have to lose but the clone center storage shed?
And now the increasing efforts to drag people to NPC cities seem just to support
the general opinion that the devs want to eliminate the player cities.
Increased efforts to drag people to the lesser known NPC cities and out of Coronet, not out of player cities. Do you really think it'd be that awful if the spam got decentralized on Corellia and Doaba saw more then 6 people per hour, and they only land there because it's easier on their computer? I just don't see this new interest in face lifting year anda half old cities into something new as a threat to our cities. I see it as changing the boring landscape around a little bit. They've said we won't get homes in NPC cities pretty much ever so that threat is gone. You can't place a base in a town and I doubt there will be destroyable garrisons so PvP will still be PC based. Merchants will be the same, with a sea of green around Coronet and Theed. So really this is just changing our art folder and that's about it.
Well maybe you re a lucky mayor who hasn t to deal with the CSR monthly cause there are severe bugs and troubles arround your city all the time. And hear promises that devs work on it and fix it.
I am. All the mayors I know of on world are, and most of the ones I know offworld have little problems with their city. I had a CTD blackhole in it, griefing from PvP'ers, and a few lost item cases and little else.All our townsaren't on a server boundary line like yours is, however one of them was accidentally deleted by their mayor quitting and are now capped on Naboo even though I don't see 10 rank 4 cities on the map. It should come out in the wash though. I've heard about your problems and I believe you said your town was on a server boundary. Well this answer isn't one most people would like to hear (I wouldn't) but you may have to move. My first choice for a city wouldn't work because of the terrain around it. Too much no build since we where on a plateau and ended up having to move to lower grounds. It was a pain in the ass but it had to be done for the betterment of the town and the citizens.
During the past year there have been tons of good and easy to implement ideas for PCs
but they have been all ignored cause devs have been soo busy with Jedi and JTL.
Jedi broke the game and JTL is history. Sure it was nice for the first 2 months. But
now most people just use it for free fast traveling. Many pilot guilds have been disbanded
cause the lack of content is not limited to the ground.
Jedi where destroying the economy with holo-grinders. That had to be redone and it had to be redone in a hurry or we'd all be trading holos (stones of jordan anyone) instead of credits. And JtL was considered part of the original game.
Yea i ve been in BETA of swg and remember when they told us, that JTL is nearly finished , just needs some polishing and bug fixing, and that no player will anyway be able to raise the money for the ship in the first month. rofl
I've been on the boards since then, couldn't get into beta due to my age at the time but followed it all considerably closely. The game was rushed out and needed work back then, and still needs work now. Too bad. Why cry over themess on the ground instead of focus on patching up the milk carton?
Galaxies was half finished without it, just like it was 1/3rd finished without mounts, vehicles, and player cities at launch. I still find it fun as a break from the ground game. When it gets monotonous I move to the other one, the real world, or halflife 2. As per the content, yeah I hear a lot of complaints on the forums about noone being overt in space. I never seem to hear people planning dogfights though to add some spice to space. It shouldn't be about destroying a Corvette up top, but destroying another ace. Pex and Co. are working on tools to provide assistance and live events up in space so lets see how that pans out before we condemn it as a barren wasteland and move on.
But right now lets forget about that. You've said there are many easily implemented ideas. Sorry but unless you've seen under the hood there is no way to call anything easy. Hell how long does it take to fix a typo? So while we may think it's a 12 minute job it might take 2 weeks and a team of 4 to do. 2 weeks and 4 code monkeys who where working on: the first idea of the CURB (HAM and creature revamp plus ideas to tweak the system), droid focus, jedi revamps, JtL, crafting rework that was recalled the next day, myriad of fixes, the new CURB that's close to alphaetc. etc. etc. I'm sorry but you yourself pointed out how cramped their schedule was. I just gave a slightly more detailed overview that's skipping a bunch of stuff since it's off the top of my head.
I m Software developer for nearly 5 years now, working on big data systems. I ve planed systems, i ve coded some and also did maintanence and even CSR for some. So i think i have an idea about how much work changes on large systems are.
That's nice, where those big data systems carbon copies of the game? You know more about this then I do, that isn't surprising in the least but you don't know as much as the developers and they're the ones that decide what warrants an hour to improve the game and what doesn't. If our 'quick fixes' take as long as something more important I'd rather have them work on that. Rubberbanding is more annoying then not having a sales tax. I can always fundraise and run missions if I can move around 10 feet without snapping back 12.
Btw do you remember when they told us JTL will not effect the development of the ground? It was a lie, TH himself had to commit months later that the devs where moved from ground to JTL to get it done.
Yes, and at the time it was true then they reassessed it. If I tell you I'm going to have pizza for dinner then wind up belching tacos did I lie to you? Or did I just figure5 tacos for a dollar beats a slice after my tummy started rumbling?Did you read up on the community rep threads a little while back? They are trying to get more communicative but just because they say one thing, then 4 months later have to renig on it doesn't mean they're lieing. It means they're changing their focus. They just need to keep us updated.
Fact is that SWG was pushed out way too early. Everone in BETA said that, even the devs. But did the managers listen? No. Why? Cause they wanted to get money for their investments. The result is a large BETA 4, where people have to pay to test it.
So should we sit back and cry over spilt milk or fix the damnded thing? I know the game was rushed, I've been on the boards since 2 years before launch. I followed it all closely. Oh well, I'm still having fun and find the game worth my 15 dollars each month. If I stop enjoying it I'll stop playing, I'm sorry 'testing', and the problem's solved.
PsychoticChipmunk
Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:39 pm
#9
TheLemming wrote:
Here's what I've seen. Most of the people talking about tags and saying that mayor would be "cool to try" don't really have any interest in mayor. They spend most of their time out grinding for jedi or the such, and usually have to be almost verbally beaten just to come back and vote. But now they can get novice politician on a whim and think that means they would make a good politician.
So...why would they win the election compared to the good politicians?
Here's the base, as I see it. Politician never really required you to "gimp" yourself. It had enough skillpoint cost just to make people put some serious thought into the decision to become a politician. I would say that if you couldn't even work out a template that included the foundation of politician (x12x) you'd be totally lost when it comes to zoning a city, recruiting to maintain city rank, discussing med center vs research center with your citizens, or if a base is the right move for your city.
You're right. Those are all dependent on the person, and one could be much better suited then the next. So, logically, they should get the ability to run for mayor and use their superior personal skills right? Then the profession should be open to the masses in order for this person to run. The skill point cost did one thing, shortchanged someone. Either shortchanged the character 60-77 skill points (high end poli able to do anything on a whim) or it shortchanged the populace who have to wait 3 weeks in order for their mayor to respond to their request. (change specializations lets say) How does this improve anyone's gameplay? And if being an effective politician just cost 32 skill points, like you are implying, well why did the profession ever cost more then that?
As for no skill points determining if politician gets ths fixes that it needs...that's another story. You might say that ranger/SL doesn't get fixes now despite requiring skill points, but I would say that we just lost any footing that even put us on equal footing. They can now say that politician is just a sort of bonus class, and since you don't have anything as tangible as SP invested in it you should be happy that anything works.
If you don't buy into that, (I don't.) then at least you might see that they made it into a "hot-potato" profession. Now it can be handed off to others as current mayors get tired of putting up with the bugs that make it difficult (sometimes nearly impossible) to run a city, instead of maintaining it as a full profession . I can see this happening much more now that it will be so much easier to do, with the end result being lots of posts from new mayors asking about info in the stickies rather than useful input/bugs from long term mayors.
Politician is a bonus class, player cities are not a bonus item. They are an integral part of the game's fabric. We fulfill parts of the game that nothing can replace. With development time our role and scope of influence would only increase and allow for more with less dev team focus. (ie live events and content due to player made substitutes) And beyond that, without bringing in pilot and tieing the 0 skill thing, why would you say that? Because we cost 0 our simple bugs are less important then someone elses simple bug. We'll get fixed based on the severity of the bug itself and the influence it has. Sales tax needs to be fixed, it is a high priority. It is also a hard to do fix. It is taking a back seat to something easier and more pertinent. Same for anything, and considering how expansive PC's are right now (only form of ZOC in the game etc.) and how many different aspects it interacts with are you that surprised changes are slow coming? Particularly when things such as all of combat, and the galactic civil war (central tenent of the game)are also on the plate?
Finally, I don't think we've seen the full effect of this change yet. Give it a couple months (elections) and we'll see where we end up. The only thing I'm sure of is that this will not increase discourse as you suggest. Politics works best when there are a few politicians offering representation of different views, and gets chaotic when people start to think that they can just represent themselves since they know best. Politician is not meant to be "for the masses." Politician is supposed to be a profession for the few who are willing to listen to and represent/organize/serve the masses.
And that's who it will appeal to. People are lazy, you said so yourself. Do you really think they'll take the reigns of a city because they don't like X? Or will they just throw their support behind citizen Kane who also has a problem with X and let him deal with it?
The reason there won't be the increase of discourse is because debatable things are lacking. What can you change compared to the incumbent ruler? City specialization? If enough of the town wants that the responsive mayor changes it anyway. Taxes? Sales is bugged and that's the only one my city ever relied on. Property tax just wasn't fair to multiple account people and income tax just seemed like a stupid forced donation. If it's big enough of an issue in your town though, you may want to start an open discussion about it instead of ignore the problem and let it fester until open riots start. The urban plan? Noone wants to move their home unless you help them do it. Besides you should be striving to have a nice looking town anyway. Why settle for a cluster fck instead of avenues and focal points?
If we had something that was divisive then you would see in game politics. We don't, and so you don't see any true politicians.
KJFett
Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:53 pm
#10
If you scroll the page kinda fast..its like a neon sign. 
with the loss of SP use, SOE has made it clear that we are not going to be getting alot of new content and abilities. Clearly they are shifting to making NPC cities more valuable, and that doesnt include us.
"Make it so its free and everyone has it and taking it away will be a little easier." is the mind set.
I almost wonder if LA was involved in this....tired of seeing empty cities, they may have told SOE to get the game to be more canon in regards to cities...resulting in the begining of the end for player cities.
Think about it! They could have spent the time they spent doing the SP change fixing our master box instead....but NOOOOO...
PsychoticChipmunk
Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:29 pm
#11
KJFett wrote:
If you scroll the page kinda fast..its like a neon sign.
with the loss of SP use, SOE has made it clear that we are not going to be getting alot of new content and abilities. Clearly they are shifting to making NPC cities more valuable, and that doesnt include us.
With their remarks about combat revamp, gcw revamp, smuggler and ranger and crafter revamp etc. SOE made it clear we aren't going to be getting jack for a good long time. How has this changed anything? Our skill point reduction didn't push the CURB and GCW down the pipe any faster and they have precedence over all other revamps. I could have told you we won't get much devotion for over a year back in March of aught 4. I'd be surprised if we get much before the 3year anniversarymark still.
As per the NPC city, I just don't see it. I'm viewing their statements as spreading out the importance of the NPC cities in relation to themselves. We can't compete with them already (starport and hardcoded aesthetics) so why pretend like we can. However, there is no reason that Tyrena can't compete with Coronet, or Deeja Peak with Theed. That's what they're doing, and good job. I'm not likely going to spend too much time wandering around Kor Vella anymoreso then I already do but it will be nice to see the differences and perhaps content to draw me into the NPC's I never visit. Hell maybe even worlds, I think I touched Rori soil twice since the first day of this game being live. Talus about 7 times, and it's close to home.
"Make it so its free and everyone has it and taking it away will be a little easier." is the mind set.
Make it so it's free and anyone can challenge the mayor to make truly free elections. When we have debatable content this will prove pivotal to actual politiking. Like I said earlier, why would someone vote against you? (unless you've alienated yourself from the city) That's the mindset I take out of the reduction, put the public back into republic. As well as giving the poli's what they want. While a majority wanted 1 skill point per skill or something similar we have been asking for a sp reduction since the publish went live and now we have it. Huzzah.
I almost wonder if LA was involved in this....tired of seeing empty cities, they may have told SOE to get the game to be more canon in regards to cities...resulting in the begining of the end for player cities.
Because Doaba Guerfel becomes more rustic looking and interesting then my city? Newsflash, it already is! I can't compete with the NPC cities for grandeur because I'm not a developer. I can't drop bridges, walls, flush gardens that are more then just a fountian with benches, terraform the land, pave it...do I really need to go on?
I can't compete with NPC cities currently why should I pretend that I can and then complain about new devotion to tipping the scales out of my favor? They where never in our favor in this regard. However, can a NPC city hold a base that equals PvP content? Can it be a mercantile hub (noone will be able to move into them.) Can it be a guildwar ZOC where the defenders have a better chance then the attackers, like they should? Nope. And the devs have stated earlier that these sorts of things will stay out of cities for lag issues.
Think about it! They could have spent the time they spent doing the SP change fixing our master box instead....but NOOOOO...
They could have spent the time they spent doing the SP change fixing rubberbanding. Developers are obviously anti-movement and our characters are doomed to bounce around the galaxy forever. Sound stupid? Yet it is the exact same arguement only applied to a different stiutation. Besides, like I said earlier, we don't know how difficult or simple a change is. Skill point cost seems like it would be a quick alteration, but then again so would a typo and those take awhile to change. This could have been an afternoon alteration meanwhile getting the dual specs to work might take a month. Who knows. Besides, I'd rather have something more unique and original in the master box than double specializations.
Pappi
Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:38 pm
#12
KJFett wrote:If you scroll the page kinda fast..its like a neon sign.
green hurts
PsychoticChipmunk
Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:41 pm
#13
Pappi wrote:
KJFett wrote:
If you scroll the page kinda fast..its like a neon sign.
green hurts
Really? I find it just sticks out well no matter the background. I prefer the white but thoughts get muddled if you do that. Purple is nice and easy on the eyes...but I use the classic view so it'd hide itself in the background color.
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