Politician Archive
Thread: This Profession was a bad idea IMO
Andy, how is it "necessary" ?
I contend everything a politician can do now could have been based entirely on election to mayor and population of the city. Most of the things a politician can do now is based on population already. For instance, just because your skill on a tree allows you to do something, you can't do it anyways unless the city has met that rank. So doesn't that make your skill invalid anyways if your city doesn't meet that rank?
Korrack wrote:
I personally feel Politician is a valid and worthwhile profession as compared to any other in the game
I agree with the original poster to a point. I also agree with Korrack, to a point. Politian is a neat profession but where I feel SOE messed up is it takes away from democracy. In a democracy, anyone can run for mayor (sometimes they have to put a bit of money to register for the position but they can still run). They don't need to be a lawyer or and accountant, or any other profession. They just need to register and run. Right now, only politicians can run for mayor. To master politician takes 77 skill points. If it were only 30-40, it wouldn't be too bad. Basically what is happening in 90% of the cities is there is one politician that is the mayor with no competition.
Korrack. Does your city have more then 1 politician running at every ellection. Is there 4 or 5 or more candidates for the top seat? If there is, you are the minority, but I am willing to bet there is no oposition. The reason is why would so many people give up 15+ skill points to become a politician to compete for a postition they may never get, to have skills they cannot use.
So basically the problem of having Politician as a profession is it leads to having one "Mayor" and every city forms a council. In the city I am a part of, the leaders of the two PAs in the city make the rules. The Mayor just follows our lead. Even though they hold the title of "Mayor" they are nothing but a secretary taking on the skill points in the place of others. We don't even try to get another politician because our Mayor has more skills then anyone new that would enter the profession.
atytula wrote:
Korrack. Does your city have more then 1 politician running at every ellection. Is there 4 or 5 or more candidates for the top seat?
So basically the problem of having Politician as a profession is it leads to having one "Mayor" and every city forms a council. In the city I am a part of, the leaders of the two PAs in the city make the rules. The Mayor just follows our lead. Even though they hold the title of "Mayor" they are nothing but a secretary taking on the skill points in the place of others. We don't even try to get another politician because our Mayor has more skills then anyone new that would enter the profession.
No, because the people in my city are happy with me I guess. Also the general concensus was that I would get to master before we decided to run others. We wanted the city complete before it becamwe open to others wanting to try politician. I always tell people they are more than welcome to run against me if I'm not doing a good job. If someone better would step up for the job, I'd gladly let them step in. It's not that I don't like mayor, I just want what is best for the city.
And over and over, both politician and merchant I continually hear people say it's wasted skill points for that profession. If you want something from something, you give up the skill points. If you want to run a city, you give up the pouints for politician. I agree that in real life, anyone can be a politician, but this is a game, and certain things need to give way for it to be programmable.
I feel bad for any mayor that is merely a puppet. I used to be a new recruit in my guild. When we decided we wanted to start a player city, I offered to step up and give up the skill points for politician. I began to organize for our city and we got other guilds interested in joining and guess what. It's now 5 weeks later and our city is prosperous and the residents are happy. Yes I consult with the guild leaders and the citizens, we even put up some boards just for the residents of our city, but I make all the decisions for the city. Because I took it as a serious profession, not just something to do when I was bored of killing nightsisters and field marshals trying to get holocrons.
I find this discussion fascinating because I can now see that there are cities that are run as guild controlled locations who just wanted a shuttleport and a cloning center to themselves. I don't care if others want to run there cities like that, but the larger cities on Wanderhome all seem to be a true cities, where the mayor does things and matters. Not just some logged off character who logs on to etrain and place a cloning center, then log off to not be seen until the next item can be placed.
As with anything, people will always take up many different understandings and viewpoints of the worthyness of something in the game. And there's always someone who says your profession is worthless so it shouldn't cost anything in skillpoints to get those abilities. But, if the skills are so useless, why would you want those abilities?
I would agree that the Politician profession may need more depth. But as it stands today it is hardly "bogus", IMO.
It sounds to me like your real beef is with your city's current Mayor. Might I suggest that someone run against them or that you move to a different city?
Did I say you could post here? I'm removing you from the militia andI'm kicking you out of the city. How's that for useful skillz?
KhazmoVVV wrote:
I would agree that the Politician profession may need more depth. But as it stands today it is hardly "bogus", IMO.
It sounds to me like your real beef is with your city's current Mayor. Might I suggest that someone run against them or that you move to a different city?
Mariki wrote:
Andy, how is it "necessary" ?
I contend everything a politician can do now could have been based entirely on election to mayor and population of the city. Most of the things a politician can do now is based on population already...
I believe everyone should have the right to run for office. Though, just like in RL you can't simply walk into a City Hall and say "Ok, folks. I'm running for Mayor". You pay $$$ for your campaign in RL, and the SWG equivalent is skill points.
Mariki wrote:
...For instance, just because your skill on a tree allows you to do something, you can't do it anyways unless the city has met that rank. So doesn't that make your skill invalid anyways if your city doesn't meet that rank?
Yes, that's the point...so not every Joe Blow and his pet turtle can gain all the benefits of a city overnight. If you want the advantage of a shuttleport, cloning center, or city specialization, then you'll need to work your way there. Allocate the required skill points and plan/build/maintain a well-run city. If someone handed me a Gurreck, you wouldn't expect me to be able to use it at novice CH do you? Put in the time and points to reach a skill level where you can.
Andymantium wrote:
Allocate the required skill points
This says it all, end of discussion really. What everything boils down to is everyone who is not a certain profession who wants those skills will say it is a useless and worthless profession and that those skills should be elsewhere. Argument has been going on forever in the merchant forum about how worthless the merchant profession is and that the vendors, customization, planetary advertising, discount maintenance, better bazaar access and everything that a merchant is should be on Novice Artisan.
Just because one person doesn't find it worth the skill points, doesn't make it a worthless profession People don't want to have to waste 15 points on Novice Medic so they can use Stim Bs. People don't want to have to waste 15 pots on Artisan so they can survey and sample. This game is about diversity and classes. To make everyone individual, the DEVs gave the ability to dabble in various professions. A set number of skill points to be spent however you want.
You can't always get what you want...
You can't always get what you want...
You can't always get what you want...
But if you try spending the skill pts. some time, you just might find...
You get what ya need!
Korrack,
I try and be the same kind of mayor you are talking about. Almost the entire amount of my in game time is spent working on, managing, and growing the city. I negotiate with crafters, I work out deals with other cities, I talk to the citizens, all of that. Everything you are talking about is excellent and the best part of being a mayor and I love it.
However, the original poster has a very valid point. You see, he's not simply saying you should require 66 skill points to do those things, he's saying you already DON'T require the skill points. NONE of the real duties of the mayor use skill points, just skill. There is no negotiation tree in the profession. There is no merchant exchange tree. There is no diplomacy tree. There is no campaign tree. None of the things you are talking about doing require the profession. These tasks could be accomplished by you just as easily even if some other ghost account were the mayor in name.
The point is, the skill tree gives NO benefit over and above benefits that are already gated by city expansion. The skill tree is merely an extension of the city's build ability.
Let's say you are the mayor, but the leader of the largest PA in town does all those functions I just listed. Organizes, recruits, etc etc. Is it not technically possible for him to do every single thing that you do aside from placing structures and decorations, and moreover to do so without the slightest investment of skill points? The answer is yes, he can.
The point is not that we shouldn't have to spend skill points to do these things. the point is that we DON'T spend skill points to do these things. We spend them to place decorations that were earned by the city as a whole. (except I think recruiting NPC Trainers is a good one and should definitely stay)
Now, with that said, the resolution to me is not to abandon the profession, because I love it. The resolution to my mind is to add more personal skills and remove the city advancement related skills (except I think recruiting NPC Trainers is a good one and should definitely stay because it fits as a personal skill, recruiting). There should be a trade agreement panel and a trade agreement tree. The more skilled you are, the more options you can add to this tree. As an added benefit, a Master Politician in a lvl 4 city could institute trade agreements with NPC cities. This would be nothing more than shunting a percentage of your sales tax as money to the NPC city, while gaining in return a bazaar terminal that acts as if it is local to that NPC city. I mean, the devs can figure out the mechanics, what happens on a failed negotiation etc. It doesn't even have to be a bazaar terminal. The point is there are things that mayors could actually DO, skills we could be given. Politicians could then fill unofficial roles in cities and yet perform official tasks. Negotiating peace treaties, trade agreements, etc. How about the ability to recruit NPC mission givers like in NPC towns. The ability to enter real agreements with other player cities using game provided tools. I mean, what a great way to start a sister city program. Even eventually, instead of a normal starport, the politician could use his skill to gain direct access to specific cities straight from the existing shuttleport, including other player cities.
There's a lot that a mayor does, but so far none of that comes from the skill tree. I also think it should be changed, not by abolishing it, but by providing tools that make it worthwhile. Not just a glorified decorator.
How about, negotiating reduced shuttle fees from the galactic travel commission. Or recruiting
Yes, people could run against you. In fact, there is nothing you can do to stop a citizen from running for mayor, but the real fact is if you are close to a Master Politician, what are the chances of a Novice Politician getting any significant votes. What about the Master Commando or Bounty Hunter that wants to run for Mayor. They can't do it unless they give up their professions. Taking away the politician profession will open up the position of Mayor to many people and will allow cities to be more democratic. That is what my main point is. I am not against the profession per say, but I am saying taking away the profession does not lessen the game but taking it away can improve the game.
Korrack wrote:
No, because the people in my city are happy with me I guess. Also the general concensus was that I would get to master before we decided to run others. We wanted the city complete before it becamwe open to others wanting to try politician. I always tell people they are more than welcome to run against me if I'm not doing a good job. If someone better would step up for the job, I'd gladly let them step in. It's not that I don't like mayor, I just want what is best for the city.
Korrack wrote:
And over and over, both politician and merchant I continually hear people say it's wasted skill points for that profession. If you want something from something, you give up the skill points. If you want to run a city, you give up the pouints for politician. I agree that in real life, anyone can be a politician, but this is a game, and certain things need to give way for it to be programmable.
I disagree. I don't see it as you wasting skill points. I think it takes dedication to do what you did. I will say that I wouldn't want to take away from the character I worked hard to become because I want my shot at work in public service.
The cold hard facts are cities were incorrectly designed and because of this, we are facing many issues from /citywarn to mayors needing to use 77 skill points to maximize their cities potential to having cities of only 10 people to cloning facilities that allow you to re-enter PvP quickly. When SOE first said they were going to have player cities, I was under the impression that if a group of houses were close to each other, they could be granted city status. Instead I find out that cities are nothing but aglorified PA halls. I thought that SOE would look at the housing demographics and they would choose where the city hall would go based on the clustering. Well, another faux pas on SOEs part. 
I agree Neologist, that not all of the Politician skills are required because they are default to a city class, and yes a lot more can and prolly will be added, but there is still plenty there that is not city size dependant that makes a mayor worthwhile unlike a lot of people think. So let's look at the skills closer:
Novice Politician: place city hall, adjust taxes, grant zoning rights. All three of these items are easily worth the 15 skill points. Adjusting taxes effects the public economy of a city. Very powerful that you can charge people for city services. Granting zoning rights keeps undesirables from building in your city. Comparing to other novice professions that usually give you 2 or 3 skills at novice, this is pretty good.
Fiscal I - IV: register city, place bank and shuttleport, city specializations for manufacturing and research. Register city to get yourself on the map is not class dependant, similar to planetary registration of vendors for merchants. It brings people to your city. It is worthwhile IMHO. Place bank is not class dependant as far as I know. This is useful as it brings more commerce to your city. Ability for people to store items in safety boxes (50 storage is a big deal in this game). Shuttleport is city size dependant, so not very useful, especially considering most mayors had this ability weeks before they were the right class sized city to place one. City specializations get mixed reviews. They are not size dependant, and provide true value in these two cases to cities full of artisans and crafters. What else could be in here? Ability to decrease maintenance rates somewhere? Perhaps. More thought to business is needed here.
Martial I - IV: create militia, cloning center, cloning and stronghold specializations, placing faction terminals. The militia and the stronghold were useful until /citywarn was announced it would be removed. Maybe they will fix this somehow and make it useful. I am not sure on city class requirements for a cloning center. We placed one in week 2. FACTION TERMINALS!!! This is huge for faction based cities. A worthwhile skill for level IV. More needed in here as well as a redesign of the militia to prevent griefing.
Civic I - IV: mission terminals, skill trainers, more specializations. Mission terminals and skill trainers are not rank specific (except for number you can place). These are a worthwhile skill that is not city dependant. Specializations are also not specific, but again, their worth can be gauged by the needs of the city.
City Customization I - IV: Decorations, none of them city class specific, and they really do add to the city, as well as the city maintenance costs.
So what do we have in total, a few skills that are city size specific, a few good skills, a bunch of urban planning (decorations) and some specializations. I still think it's a useful profession. Altho lacking in some spots and some questionable skills and abilities. I'm sure that as things progress, there will be more skills and better understanding. I do see both sides of the argument for and against the mayor needing a complete profession to define him/herself and the value of this profession. Time will tell.
I still think it will be 77skill points well spent for me.
Korrack wrote:
I still think it will be 77skill points well spent for me.
This comment made me think one way they could fix this easily, while keeping the profession side of things. 77 is a lot of skill points. Almost 1/3. Many people would be unwilling to give up that many skill points for the possibility that they would become mayor (remember, with 3 or 4 candidates there will only be one mayor). Instead, maybe they should reduce the number of skill points required to master Politician.
Novice Politican:3 SP
Level 1:1 SP x 4
Level 2:1 SP x 4
Level 3:2 SP x 4
Level 4:2 SP x 4
Master Politician:3 SP
This would take 30 SP. It is half of an elite profession and anyone would be able to do it. It still takes up skill points but more people would be willing to take this profession on. What does everyone think about this compromise. Note: Making Level 3 and 4 down to 1 SP x 4 will reduce the number of skill points to 22. Is this too low? I feel the lower the better but still enough to force a player to commit some skill points to the profession.
So far, I've had to totally drop my scout and medic skills to gain politician skills.
Yeah, it sort of sucks. However, mounts andpeople in town (who can heal) to hunt with largely mitigate the need for these skills. Yes, it slightly gimps you, but oh well.
I think lowering the requirement could prevent these second account bot mayors that you hear about. However, if someone is going to be a "bot" mayor, they're going to be one regardless of the cost.
If it cost 15 points to master politician, or 22 points or 30 points, etc. I think you'd see more contested elections, but you'd also have less dedicated mayors than are currently in-game. As it stands now, the players who will commit the skill points to mayor are largely (note: I didn't say ALL) the hands-on, actually want to be the mayor types.
Yes, you will have the unfortunate result of some people only logging on to train and place stuff, then going back to their main account. It's your fault for electing a mayor who is an alt. Tough noogies man. Seriously. How dumb is that? You must have KNOWN the mayor was an alt account. If you didn't, the planning wasn't too good on getting the city placed.
Our first mayor considered himself a placeholder mayor. But we had a plan to make sure we got a spot on Corellia, and it involved several backup placement mayors. The plan is the key element in this anecdote.
At any rate, given the right candidate, I think the politician class CAN be useful. Heck, it currently IS useful. Grant zoning rights is hands down the most effective city building tool available.
But, of course, your /gallop may vary.