Player Associations Archive
Thread: Why is grouping so integral? (A discussion)
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PetaByte32
Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:47 pm
#1
Ok first this isnt a flamefest post. Just a quiet little discussion on why grouping is supposed to be important to an MMO.
Lets dump some of the excuses first so we dont have to hear them yet again.
1: MMO means you have to group. - No it doesnt. MMO just means several players on a server at the sametime. Nothing more or less.
2: Soloers hate to group. - Actually most soloers love to group more then the groupies. They just want it on their own terms.
Okon to the discussion. Why do game companies think grouping must be in an MMO so much they are willing to go as far as forcing it in most cases?
I host an informal game group in my area computer club and this question came up so it got me to thinking. Game companies think without grouping the MMO is dead? Why? For the most part is to be social. This is what they believe. Without grouping, players wont be social and it will become a game full of no one talking to anyone and hence a game of solo play.
But I believe this is shortsighted. Game companies underestimate the human condition and human nature. Humans, down to the core, must seek out social interaction. Whether online or in real life. This is in fact one reason MMOs are popular. To get on a server with a bunch of your peers and share the fun.
Lets look at our game. SWG has many things in place to keep us social. Apprentice Points is one biggie. The sole reason for it is to keep us talking to each other. If it wasnt for AxP a player could theoretically go from novice to master and play for years without ever talking to another individual. Group bonus is another. Give a little more xp in hopes players will group more. But these and the rest of the systems in place I think arent needed as players will be social no matter what you do or dont do.
Look at another game where soloing is more beneficial then grouping. Lineage 2. It may have changed but when I played soloing was better xp and easier then grouping. Yet I saw more grouping in it then in games where grouping is forced or encouraged.
This is only my opinion but I think the whole concept and benefit of grouping should be for one thing only. To make things easier. Look at a simple concept such as building something. Lets say a house. If one person does it then it will take years. But if a group of people do it it can take just a few months maybe less. This should be the true concept of grouping.
If we group it should be because we want to do it. Not because we are forced to get access to some content or some mob that is only accessible through a group. If I group its because I want too. Its because I want to spend an afternoon with my friends hunting or trying to conquer something.
Now this doesnt mean I think everything should be easily soloed. Far from it. I think the higher the mob compared to the player it should be progressively harder to solo. But it should still be possible. Take for example the ancient rancor at the rancor caves. Before buffs and uber armor I came across this walking tank with a degree in people pounding. I didnt feel like walking back to the outpost so I decided to let it kill me but I would try to solo it also. After a long hard battle with plenty of close calls and near deaths I finally succeeded. I then went back, over the next few days, to try again but died each time. When I returned with a group a few weeks later we killed him easy peasy. This to me should be what grouping versus solo play is.
You can do it and you might succeed but the risks for death or failure would be more. Not this idea that this is an MMO and if you solo then your killing the game so no one should be able to solo anything even slightly above their level. I also dont subscribe to this theory that grouping keeps people social. I have seen way too many players join my groups and never say even one word to anyone. I do, however, believe that the more developers try to force grouping the more people will try to solo. Because it becomes even more of a challenge.
That is it in a nutshell. The core reason some of us do solo. Because we want a true challenge. And group kills just arent a real challenge. Solo, its you and the mob. No one else. The true essence of hunting. Do you think when a group of hunters go out to kill a deer that they all start firing all at once? No its almost always one hunter picked to take the shot and during those few moments its just him and the deer.
My personal reason for soloing isnt just the challenge but I am an explorer by nature and I haveyet tofind anyone willing to just follow me around while I check things out. One of the drawbacks of exploring is you find things that dont agree with you pounding through their lairs.
PB32
Rothin
Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:43 pm
#2
Solo vs Group, a very interesting topic for sure. By its very nature, MMOs are designed to be for groups of players interacting together over time. If they were designed for soloing only, why would we even want to allow other players and instead just design a single player game that would accomplish the same goals.
The purpose of grouping should be to make things easier on an individual, you are correct in that. However, not everything in the game should be soloable either. Because everything can be soloed, difficult or not, that is one of the reasons that the game is in the state that its in now. Everyone can do everything. You don't need anyone else to suceed. That's why people say the game is to easy, lacks content, that it's no fun. Buffs, foods, armor, and unbalanced weapons that all happened over time caused the state of combat to fall into this mindset. To say that you should be able to solo everything in the game is to say that combat in the game is perfect as is.
There are two different playstyles in MMOs and both are very equally important. Soloing is a very important aspect because you should not always be forced to seek out others, because lets face it we don't always want to. Sometimes we like to just do our own thing in the game and that should be allowed. Soloing comes with a price though, while you should be able to do it, you should not be able to take out anything in the game just because you want to solo. That puts the game where we are now. There is no challenge because given enough time you can kill anything in the game.
Grouping on the other hand is another very important part of an MMO, in my opinion a more important part. It allows players to work together to meet a single goal. To have to work together to get access to the high end content of the game. To be able to take down the feared Krayt Dragons or Night Sister Elders. No single person should be able to take down things that in Star Wars fiction were feared by all. By making grouping a more encouraged option, but not required, you allow players to work together. To help form friendships or guilds that will keep them in the game longer and allow them to enjoy the game more. The social aspect is what makes MMOs great and by encouraging grouping you help ensure that the social aspect will prevail.
The real problem is where to find the balance between both styles. You can't let people solo everything and you don't want to force people to group to fight everything. You have to allow both to be equally important to respect both playstyles. Right now because everything is soloable and grouping is not feasible for advancement, people feel that they MUST solo to be able to advance in the game. They by their very nature look for the most efficient way to make it to master and will grind on the same creature over and over no matter how boring it may be to make it there and then they complain there is no content because they chose the quickest path instead of the more enjoyable one.
To make SWG great, we have to work to try to change the mindset of 'the grind is good' to 'grouping is fun and you advance while you play the game' and to do that grouping needs to be encouraged so that players will want to work together instead of just grinding because its more efficient. How do we do that? The first is to change how grouping works in the game currently to make it worthwhile instead of just a means to get higher level missions. I've discussed that in another thread. Next, you have to make sure that its MORE beneficial to group to get xp than it is to solo, but not too beneficial to make soloing pointless. I think then when you accomplish those two goals you will come out with a balanced MMO that both soloers and group oriented people can enjoy.
The purpose of grouping should be to make things easier on an individual, you are correct in that. However, not everything in the game should be soloable either. Because everything can be soloed, difficult or not, that is one of the reasons that the game is in the state that its in now. Everyone can do everything. You don't need anyone else to suceed. That's why people say the game is to easy, lacks content, that it's no fun. Buffs, foods, armor, and unbalanced weapons that all happened over time caused the state of combat to fall into this mindset. To say that you should be able to solo everything in the game is to say that combat in the game is perfect as is.
There are two different playstyles in MMOs and both are very equally important. Soloing is a very important aspect because you should not always be forced to seek out others, because lets face it we don't always want to. Sometimes we like to just do our own thing in the game and that should be allowed. Soloing comes with a price though, while you should be able to do it, you should not be able to take out anything in the game just because you want to solo. That puts the game where we are now. There is no challenge because given enough time you can kill anything in the game.
Grouping on the other hand is another very important part of an MMO, in my opinion a more important part. It allows players to work together to meet a single goal. To have to work together to get access to the high end content of the game. To be able to take down the feared Krayt Dragons or Night Sister Elders. No single person should be able to take down things that in Star Wars fiction were feared by all. By making grouping a more encouraged option, but not required, you allow players to work together. To help form friendships or guilds that will keep them in the game longer and allow them to enjoy the game more. The social aspect is what makes MMOs great and by encouraging grouping you help ensure that the social aspect will prevail.
The real problem is where to find the balance between both styles. You can't let people solo everything and you don't want to force people to group to fight everything. You have to allow both to be equally important to respect both playstyles. Right now because everything is soloable and grouping is not feasible for advancement, people feel that they MUST solo to be able to advance in the game. They by their very nature look for the most efficient way to make it to master and will grind on the same creature over and over no matter how boring it may be to make it there and then they complain there is no content because they chose the quickest path instead of the more enjoyable one.
To make SWG great, we have to work to try to change the mindset of 'the grind is good' to 'grouping is fun and you advance while you play the game' and to do that grouping needs to be encouraged so that players will want to work together instead of just grinding because its more efficient. How do we do that? The first is to change how grouping works in the game currently to make it worthwhile instead of just a means to get higher level missions. I've discussed that in another thread. Next, you have to make sure that its MORE beneficial to group to get xp than it is to solo, but not too beneficial to make soloing pointless. I think then when you accomplish those two goals you will come out with a balanced MMO that both soloers and group oriented people can enjoy.
Mentalbug
Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:18 am
#3
My thought on this is that, yes, you should be able to advance solo-style, even if harder and longer. But I don't agree with you when you say that everything should be soloable. I take for example Dark Age of Camelot and the so called "Epic zones", these are places far to dangerous for a lonely person, so you best bet to survive in there (with numerous aggressive mobs in constant fast popping) is to be in a huge -well organised- group. If you did well enough, you could finally reach the most powerful monster of the game: a Dragon.
The dragon in his lair demanded very good organization of several groups, tanks who are supposed to keep the aggro, damage dealers who had to wait a bit before starting to attack, healers to.. well... rezz the dead ones, and one last group has to stop the -other- mobs that continue to spawn and attack all around the lair. That's what i call an epic battle!
All this to say that, if winning solo a quite hard battle against a dangerous mob is something, the victory against such an epic mob that demands the coordinate actions of dozens of players is completely different, far more thrilling!
So again I say that solo play must be available, but, for example, beeing able to hunt a krayt dragon down solo is lame.
But that's just my opinion =)
The dragon in his lair demanded very good organization of several groups, tanks who are supposed to keep the aggro, damage dealers who had to wait a bit before starting to attack, healers to.. well... rezz the dead ones, and one last group has to stop the -other- mobs that continue to spawn and attack all around the lair. That's what i call an epic battle!
All this to say that, if winning solo a quite hard battle against a dangerous mob is something, the victory against such an epic mob that demands the coordinate actions of dozens of players is completely different, far more thrilling!
So again I say that solo play must be available, but, for example, beeing able to hunt a krayt dragon down solo is lame.
But that's just my opinion =)
PetaByte32
Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:58 am
#4
I think its interesting you should bring up dragons and krayt dragons.
In most high fantasy books, dragons were mainly killed by one lone hero. Solo.
In alot of the reference to krayt dragons in the EU, they are taken down by a lone hunter. Admittedly they used tricks and traps to do it but they still did it.
Which brings me to my point. While I am not condoning the wholesale solo slaughter of high end mobs. I do think it should be possible. Not probable but possible. Looking at the krayt dragon. For me I think it should be possible to kill a dragon solo 5% of the time. That means that out of 20 attempts on dragons only one person will succeed and the others clone.
By allowing for a 5% margin for success you will have a very few select players who would even want to attempt to hunt one. And they would use tricks or traps to succeed.
I would love to see things put in play that could help the solo player do the job against things like krayts. As it stands now a krayt will break your camo/maskscent everytime, is immune to every trap, and will spot a person under cover with the first shot. As it stands now there is only one real tactic for a krayt. That is popping bleeds then mashing your most damaging attack until it falls.
According to what info I have at the moment on the CURB, it looks like the developers are setting it up so there alot more choices in templates for PVP. I would like to see them do the samething with PVE. Like Master Ranger/Rifleman be a better solo template and able to handle the high end mobs with less risk then say a TKM/Swordsman.
PB32
PetaByte32
Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:26 pm
#5
You dont have to force or encourage grouping to get people to group. And segregating soloers and groupies will only further increase the chasm between them.
First the problem isnt that the mobs are easy. Its that the players are too buffed, armored, and skilled to find a real challenge. Before buffs and uber armor (Known in this post as BA for now on) 50% of the mobs were dangerous and half the time you would get your spleen handed to you. People grouped. Alot. Not because it was forced or encouraged. It was because they wanted too and it made the job easier.
Take your average rancor lair. When buffs were medium powered and armor was so so, they still proved a challenge to even groups. But the smart player that knew how to pull and what weapons to use could still solo them. But there was a downside. It took alot longer and if you made even one mistake, you woke up in a cloner. Pull a mob and accidently get two, equip the wrong weapon, move into another lair, or hit the wrong special attack could all cost you your life. It was at this time I think the true solo vs group situation was at the perfect balance. Players would group to make the job easier and to have fun together but if their friends werent on or they couldnt find a good group then they could go solo everything and experiance most if not all the content in this game.
However this whole grouping thing is getting way out of hand. Game developers have crossed the line in the way they think about it. Not only are they trying to force it but in some games they are trying to dictate just how many and what roles are present in a group. Further making soloing look alot better to the average gamer. Thanks to ideas like the combat wheel, group interdependancy, and group dynamics its causing the players to turn further away from grouping. Defeating the whole purpose and taking the true fun part of grouping completely out of the picture.
So how do you set up content for groups? What is the proper size and dynamic in a group for such content? I have seen a small group of 3 players take out something that would normally wipe the floor with a group of 20. Not because of buffs or armor. Because the 3 players worked well together and knew what to do and when to do it. But some game developers are trying to dictate group sizes. This also has the side effect of those large groups that meet the group dynamic set yet work so well together that there is no real challenge. The grouping thing becomes boring and they start looking to other areas.
Then we get into the advanced planets. Dathomir, Yavin IV, and Endor. Before BA, only rangers and crazy people travelled these planets alone. It was literally shut off from those people that just wanted to see it. You had to be in a group of 10 or more just to walk 500M outside an outpost. This is basically like saying any player that doesnt group is only getting half the game.
Also we get into the other downside of grouping. And that is finding one. Most PUGs (Pick Up Groups) are more like the three stooges then a true group. And a player doesnt always play when his friends are on. So what is a person to do? There is no real way to make getting a group or keeping it fun possible. I for one have never joined a PUG that was fun for me. All were, at least, annoying and for the most part a pain. So I wont join them. And my friends arent always online when I am. So I am stuck going to the solo zones or solo planets only to be bored to tears.
The reason for this is game developers usually underestimate what a soloer can accomplish and overestimate what a group can accomplish. They further increase the problem by making the solo player seem like a step child compared to the groupie. Grouped content is fun and thought provoking while the stuff in solo zones is just the left overs. Again trying to pull people away from soloing. But only encouraging the gamer to hit the "Cancel Account" button, which is shooting the game devs in the foot.
The fact is players will interact no matter how much soloing is made to be fun. And people will still solo no matter how much you force grouping. Its a fact that I wish game developers would learn.
PB32
Mentalbug
Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:22 am
#6
PetaByte32 wrote:I think its interesting you should bring up dragons and krayt dragons.In most high fantasy books, dragons were mainly killed by one lone hero. Solo.PB32
Well ahem... yes good point
I think i can meet your point of view on that one.But anyhow im sure we agree on that the current situation is extreme ^^ I have that silly screenshot of me in the middle of a dozen of not friendly at all Rancors, while im not taking any damage. That's fun the first time, but on the second you kinda get bored on that kind of hunt, don't you?
That maximum 5% chance to get out alive of such a fight kinda pleases me tough =) (Who wouldn't love to show of and say "Look that über stinking dragon tooth is my souvenir of that heroic fight I lead alone against the mighty Krayt when i was young!" 
)But still, I keep thinking that some of the game features should demand a group... Even Luke couldnt solo the Death Star
Without the whole crew that acted as human shield behind him he wouldnt have lasted very long (Ok, the Death Star isn't probably the best example I could find ^^) Though you could imagine having some help from friendly npc's in stead... maybe...
Jjix
Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:32 am
#7
I just returned to SWG and immediately recognized just how much soloing is emphasized in SWG over grouping, contrary to most other mmogs. Unlike most mmogs, in swg there really isn't the idea of being able to log on and just flag up "lfg" and get an invite. And when you do get an invite, it is almost always to what they apparently call "solo" groups, where people group together to gain the benefits of grouping, but then just solo. Solo groups are only logical in this game . . . even when you are in a group intent on having a "group-like" experience, it basically feels like a bunch of people soloing in proximity to one another, with some chat interspersed.
And that gets to the heart of why grouping is fun. Many people have this notion that it is fun because it is "social", and while I certainly don't discount that, I don't think that is the essential reason grouping in mmogs is fun. Grouping is fun because it involves teamwork to make things happen, and teamwork makes combat more exciting. That is the fundamental reason: it isn't that grouping is more social, it is that itis more exciting. Playing basketball one on one can be ok, but it gets FUN when its group on group. Grouping involves using your skills in more sophisticated ways, when you do something awesome, other people recognize it and admire it, it turns grind into an adventure, a challenge, a drama. If the team works smoothly together, everyone feels the jolt of excitment and energy that comes from such teamwork. Teamwork is inherently fun in games. That is the bottom line.
But in many ways SWG doesn't make this experience very likely. In this game, when you group it more or less feels like a bunch of people, as i said before, soloing next to one another. There isn't the idea of synergy, where one character makes another character stronger in some way, and vice versa. There is no "defense", no "offense", no shifting roles to play in the group. Everyone basically has the same role. In otherwords, there is a team, but very little "teamwork."
To me the ideal is where soloing is perfectly possible, but where being with a group makes the idea of teamwork come alive. I look to CoH as a game that achieved this balance perfectly. In that game most everyone can solo effectively, and yet grouping is very alive and well. Different classes or archetypes can benefit one another in such a way that makes grouping feel like a synergistic event, rather than a bunch of people who are basically just soloing in the same area, which is what it feels like in SWG when you do group. You can solo just fine with your scrapper for intance, but having a defender with you can potentially up your damage. To the defender, having the scrapper provides a frontman who isn't as squishy as they are and can allow them to go less noticed by the enemy so as to actualize their abilities more effectively. One class benefits the other in this way, but isn't "required" (such as in EQ 2 where grouping IS basically forced). So teams really do feel like teams, and yet everyone can also solo if they want as well.
The ideal in a mmog is to be able to get online and group if you want to group, or solo if you want to solo. But in SWG it is so exceedingly hard, compared to other mmorgs, to get a group experience rolling, that it ends up feeling more like when you get online you have little choice but to solo, and in that sense it feels like "forced soloing." But even worse, when you do get in groups, the synergy between classes seems absent, and so it continues to feel much like a solo experience, even though theoretically you are on a team.
But again, teamwork in games is fun, even if you never speak so much as a word to the people on your team! That is why grouping is so "integral", not because it is social, but because it is very very fun.
Leana_Txorana
Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:49 pm
#8
This will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction for two reasons.
1) You can achieve success and mastery of any profession without grouping. Thus grouping is not required
2) Some content is not available to a single player. Thus grouping is required.
There are some that feel that EVERY single bit of content should be available to the solo player. If they cannot solo, Krayts, Rancor, or the most powerful Nightsister, then grouping is being FORCED on them.
In some ways they are correct, you are forced to group to accomplish some tasks and they are precluded from access to part of the game unless they group.
Grouping is not required, you can play this games for the live of the game and never have to group. But that does not mean that you are not forced to group.
Tsimhnori
Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:31 am
#9
I think that a group of 20 is too many for most things... 20 is more like a raid than a group... everquest2 groups are only 6 people... but those groups can team up with other groups forming raid groups, but there is a penalty that the mobs that are not raid mobs won't drop loot.
GraySeven
Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:35 pm
#10
Why can't games balance solo versus grouping instead of forcing grouping upon people? Why, for example...
Can't loot be balanced? If something is very difficult for 1 person to beat, why then can't that person expect the same loot as a creature designed to take the same amount of effort from 20 people?
But, some ask, what happens if those 20 whip up on 20 creatures meant to be solo'd instead of the one creature meant to be group attacked? They get nothing...
Base loot on the Con. If something con's below white, don't give loot or experience.
But, some ask, what about noob's? Should a low skilled character have a chance at a +25 speed CA?
That is where Creature Levels come into play. Loot will also need to be tied into CL in such a way that a Carniverous Nuna that would be a Red Con to some poor sap with just the Novice Brawler box doesn't drop items unappropriate to the skill ability of the character.
Why am I concentrating on loot? Because RPG's are about reward. Rewards come in 3 forms (typically); XP, Money, and loot. Without rewards, any game can and will get boring. It just bothers me that, to get loot thats worth anything I have to group up with others. Solo, I get garbage (though the recent revamp is nice, its still just eye candy compared to some of the loot available).
MMO's need to take playing styles into account. I like to interact with others, but I don't like to group hunt. I'm selfish, I like to be able to camp if I want, take a break when I want, grab a bite to eat if I want without having to wait until everyone else has the same need or without feeling I'm inconvieniencing other people.
Creature Con is already based on group size and ability, so this proposition isn't impossible. Shouldn't someone soloing a white con creature be able to expect the same reward from a group soloing a white con creature?
Also on a similar subject, groups of creatures should be tied together in Con as well as action. Agroing 1 Stormtrooper should cause every other in that spawn to aggro, and the con of the ST's should take into about this "group mentality" as well.
I have hopes that the Combat Rebalance addresses some of these issues, but at the same time Group versus Solo needs to be addressed so it doesn't have to be "patched in" at a latter date.
Deathtomelee
Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:02 am
#11
Good points brought up here on all sides. It is my opinion that SWG should be cautious in forcing gamers to group with the intent on making it "more fun" to group than not to group. Some one replied with that very statement, and I would have you look at it from another point of view.
WHAT IS FUN FOR YOU MIGHT DIFFER FROM WHAT IS FUN FOR ME.
That being said, I will state my case lol.
I am in a guild that is based on teamwork and is very social. We seek each other out and get together on many occaisons iot group hunt. However, I am a loner by nature in this game, so I jind the most enjoyment for my character comes from being solo. This does not mean that I do not participate in the guild hunts. Far from it. I try to be present for all of them, , not for any advancement on my part, (in fact I hardly gain any xp from them as I am allmost always outdamaged by the tanks-and I never loot) but because I enjoy the company of the friends that I have made. But I understand that there are many in my group that do not enjoy some of the things that I do, so I do not ask them to take part (sometimes it is better if they don't know my workings! lol <---spook). I believe that as stated prior to my response-we as humans are social creatures, and will seek out companionship for justthat- companionship, and not in order to reap the benefits of being in a group. Many of the guild members can solo everything in the game (loli.e. BP and the wookie monster!) and yet they still get together with us all to go after rancorsor sisters. Why? Because they want to hang out, not because the only way that we all can succeed is if we are together. I for one don't want to have to pay a subscription fee that requires I seek out others to get anywhere in the game. If I want to play by myself for an hour or two, I should not be penalized for that.Someone said that bythe very nature of the mmo, groups should be formost. How so?Isn't real life fully populated by thinking people? Are you forced to go out at night and find others who want to buy a truck with you tohelp you get money?
Are you forced to go out and find others to help you find others who want to eat get together in order to pay for the bill? Nope- so why should we be forced to do that here?
Fun is thepurpose here- so if grouping is fun for you-find a group. If it is not, then go solo-either should be a perfectly acceptable method, but this is not the Highlander game, where there can be only one.
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