Player Associations Archive
Thread: Help -- big issue
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Valuthorax
Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:30 am
#1
I was the acting leader of the pa, our actuall leader quit the game we are 98 memers and around 1/2 regualr active members.
WELL
somehow another member had the same access I did to add and kick members a few of us had this access,
Somehow he removed everyone elses access to kick -- and then he kicked me -- the acting leader.
(lucky i am admin on the pa house so i denied him access to further kicks)
HE then proceded to TEAR up the city since he is mayor and I supported someoen else running as a polotician.,
You know what a csr told me after the whole PA submitted tickets?
we do not get involved in player discreps...
To me this is blatant Griefing. and I re submitted a ticket I will call them tonight.
Have any of you had this -- how can one member that is not leader remove the ability for other members to kick him out? yet he can kick us?
this is the same mayor that exploited using a lampost to save a base and a csr did nothing -- he claims he has a csr friend -- if that is not a lie there is a BIG issue.
what would you all do we are one of the oldest remaining PA's on our server and with this action most active memebrs are ready to quit and -- well the rest will follow
Bischoff
Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:28 am
#2
This needs to be addressed pronto. No-one except the guildmaster himself should have the authority to change another member's administrative privileges. The csr's refusal to get involved was extremely unprofessional. Poorly designed mechanics made it impossible for the PA to resolve the issue themselves, even though it was all the active players of the guild against the one over-ambitious member. Do your jobs, please.
Valuthorax
Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:50 am
#3
I agree
what scares me is he claims to have a csr friend --- and he did tell us the Jedi changes way before anyone else knew...so i partially believe him.
I submited a ticket asking for the csr to apoint a new mayor and make me active pa leader to resolve this -- my whol pa did the same.
This is pure harasment.
Jascentia
Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:48 pm
#4
Here's what I know...
No one but the *actual* leader has access to change guild privs. I am not sure whether or not even the CSRs have this ability. Typically they will tell a guild to handle these issues on their own by contacting their leader or going through the allegience process to select a new leader. The other option is, someone got access to your old leader's account and used it to change permissions. Or, your past guild leader deleted their character and the system auto-selected this person you are now having problems with as the new guild leader. There are too many possibilities and too little information for me to know for sure.
What your guild needs to do at this point if it wants to keep its name is go through the Allegience process and select a leader, even if a temporary one, who will kick this person out. Once there is a real leader again they can reinvite people and restore all privileges. Don't rely on a locked guild hall to keep this person from messing with things, they can just place a new PA Hall that will act as a Hall for the guild.
The moral of the story is, make sure all acting guild leaders are guild leaders according to the system as well. A true guild leader can't be kicked out by their own guild unless they are voted out through allegience.
As for CSR issues, if you ever suspect any CSR of anything get the CSRs name and record as much firsthand evidence as possible. Without being able to back things up with concrete evidence not much can be done. Unfortunately some people have made up many CSR myths so it can be tough to sort out the truth.
Bischoff
Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:56 pm
#5
Unfortunately, Jascentia, what we are saying is that he DID change other people's admin privileges, whether he should have been able to or not. Also, it was impossible to vote Valuthor in as official guild leader because the inactive players in our guild outnumber the active, and all the inactive are pledging their allegiance to Lord-Chaos, who hasn't played for months.Admittedly Lord-Chaos should have just appointed Val leader before he disappeared. We couldn't kick the inactive players because only Lord-Chaos and Ehsan had that ability. Ehsan was banned by Valuthor from the guildhall so he couldn't wreck more havoc, so that leaves nobody capable of resolving the situation except for a CSR. I'm disgusted by the ineffectual "customer service". I may as well go scream racial epithets in the Coronet starport because the csrs "cannot interfere with player disputes". Now, because of their refusal to get involved and the radical actions of one player, one of the oldest, largest, and (at one time) most respected PAs on Wanderhome is dead. The is egregious and should result in a speedy policy change so that it can never happen again.
Jascentia
Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:25 pm
#6
I can try to do something about the Allegience situation. I knew these sorts of problems would come up and I tried to get some attention to the issue LONG ago but I didn't have any"real-world"examples of this going horribly wrong.... until now. Here's the post I've forwarded to the devs....
If a particular set of circumstances presents itself, it can be impossible for a guild to change leadership.
A.Over 50% of membership in the PA is inactive.
B. The PA Leader is no longer available.
C. No active members are left with kick permissions.
I've mentioned this in the past but so farit hasn'thappened frequently enough to be a big concern. I do have a concrete example now regardingDARK, an elder PA on Wanderhome. The PA Leader left the game a while back. The PA wanted to elect one particular member as Leader, but the one remaining active member with kick permissions removed the potential leader and will not remove other inactives so that the majority of the PA can have the leader they want. Thus, thosecomposing the majority of the PAhave to start over because this individual has hijacked the guild.
I have been advising guilds to make sure they don't get themselves into this circumstance. However, this hinges on the responsibility of the leader... something this system is supposed to make up for, not rely upon.
As servers, characters, and guilds age I expect this to be a growing cause for CS tickets. Though my understanding is that CS is not authorized to help in these situations. Is that correct?
One potential solution would be to ignore the allegience of inactive characters. Another would be to remove inactive characters from the member list, sending them a system email to explain why. A stop-gap solution may be to allow CSRs to manually remove inactive players from PAs that have found themselves in this situation.
As for the permissions issue, I still need more concrete information to figure out if an exploit happened, and how.
At the time of the original leader's departure, who of those characters who are activetoday have kick permissions?
When did this change?
Were their permissions changed, or did they just get kicked out themselves?
Did only the kick permission change, or did other permissions change as well?
Is there a chance that the leader returned briefly, or someone used the leader's account to do this change?
Is Ehsan leader now? What does doing /guildstatus on him say?
Message Edited by Jascentia on 07-20-2004 07:27 PM
Rothin
Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:04 pm
#7
I'm glad to see you're trying to help out here Jas, makes the rest of us happy to have you as a Correspondant. After my long break from the PA forums, now that I'm back, I'm glad you're still here with us taking care of business! Keep it up! 
Valuthorax
Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:08 am
#9
Hello,
I will answer any questions you have -- this post is the last of my ranting 
--
We are unsure when the kick function was removed, I had it and Ehsan had it -- 4 other players used to had it (and one is old pa leaders good friend so he did not have it removed we are 100% sure of that) but they can no longer kick a player out.
we tried with my alt with no special PA status. he could not kick him
we tried the one who kicked me. (ehsan) and he could not kick him
so it was not by "status"
We have no proof Ehsan removed the ability and likely he will not admit it either way,
but he is also mayor and well -- removed all militia, removed eveyones admins access on pa buildings we all shared etc...so this says most likely he did it...
I will be glad to help with other questions, it was painful forming a new pa last night, and I have most my servers suport, (rebel and Imperial -- keep your enemies close..),
one player has wrecked our pa, wrecked the pa's name and destryored a city were over 100 citizens live -- how can this happen?
I am honestly real angry at customer servise they reply we cant help... then close a ticket. they should show up in person and assist 24 players standing around -- find out the story.. not a quick responce.
I think the lack of customer service is the worst part in all of this.
there have been stories of csr's transfering cities, (no one did this for us ) why not a pa the csr could disban, rename the pa and add back all memebrs, it may take time but it is something that thye can do.
I have worked in customer service for many years -- at my industries #1 company in customer service, it amazes me that what i consider quality is not considered quality by other companies, a csr were i work would have been let go for those respces
Valuthorax
Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:41 am
#10
Ehsan dont troll
this is actually a serios not about you issue at this point.
the aliance system is faulty concidering i had 36 active memebrs vote for me, we had 98 memebrs -- I have around 90% of the active vote.
What I want to aproach now is how the actions of 1 player can destroy an old pa becouse of afaulty system
ArgonOrakio
Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:13 am
#11
well seems like there is an easy soluion to your problem.
1) everybody leavs the current guild.
2) you start a new guild.
3) the rest joins the new guild
No more problems that way.
Valuthorax
Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:38 am
#12
we already did form a new guild --
we have suport of whole server minus a handful.
but this is an issue that should not happen to other pa's
as the guild leader i am the only one with the ability to kick players for now. and starting ove got rid of the problem of inactives
how long do you wait to kick an inactive player? (to avoid this in the again)
DarthEhsan
Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:37 pm
#13
Ok I kicked you because we had equal admin rights. How Ferrow lost his admin rights I have no idea.
The city is not only you. There is another guild with as many active memebers as yours and they want me as mayor.
What happened was I stopped paying 15 bucks a month to be your slave. And I began to play.
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