Player Associations Archive
Thread: 8 Man Groups
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ReemusDarksider
Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:34 am
#1
For the discussion of the new rules regarding grouping. And please, don't give the mods a reason to delete this thread. There is alot of needed discussion regarding this topic, and anytime anyone gives them a reason to, it gets deleted.
Rothin
Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:38 am
#2
For the sake of discussion, discuss OTHER alternatives to group features you'd like to see to alleviate the 8 person limit. The Devs will not increase the number in a group, so rather than keep saying increase it when they will not, discuss other features you'd like to see as an alternative I can take to them as suggestions instead of getting a flat "no."
Ideas such as a Raid system to allow groups to link up and share looting rights as if they were one group, etc.. things like that.
If it turns into "We want more than 8 in a group" thread, it won't get anywhere with the devss.
Ideas such as a Raid system to allow groups to link up and share looting rights as if they were one group, etc.. things like that.
If it turns into "We want more than 8 in a group" thread, it won't get anywhere with the devss.
ReemusDarksider
Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:47 am
#3
its not against the user agrrement to want, or talkabout an adjustment to the group size. so long as its constructive discussion. the mods need to stop deleting intire threads, and stick to deleting single posts that are dramatic, unconstructive, or a violation of the user agreement. why else would this section include the word "Grouping" in its title. I will settle for the raid sys, so long as it incorperates and allows for the type of game play experienced prior to the group nerf. I understand the devs feel they have balanced the game to allow for any pve situation to be dealt with by the right grouping of 8 people, but only barely, but also serves to severly limit ingame activities that once revolved around the old group sys. no one is going to pretend they are happy with the new sys, don't expect them too. a good company listens to the players, and trys to give them what they consider an enjoyable gaming experience.
Rothin
Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:57 am
#4
I agree, the last thread shouldn't have been moved completely, just one reply that was inappropriate. And I'm not saying you can't talk about increasing the group size, but I am letting you know that I've been told no several times and they've stated it publically several times that they will *not* increase the size beyond 8.
That's why I'm trying to encourage "outside of the box" thinking. Rather than trying to get something back that we won't get, and have been told we won't get, we need to think of things we would like to see as an alternative. Then as we compile those new ideas I can pass them on to the devs for consideration. Just saying "increase it beyond 8 because this system sucks" isn't going to get anything accomplished at all.
The 8 person limit was put into place because they balanced most content to revolve around 8 players when it came to grouping so that it would help more casual gamers rather than always requiring you to take part in a 20 person group if you wanted to play, and unless you're lucky or in a very large active guild (which not all guilds are very large and active) then it would be nearly impossible for it to work for casual players.
Now, with that said, yes 8 person groups do cause some issues when it comes to large scale PvP events, Entertainer Groups, Space Raids, etc.. That's why a Raid system was discussed here, in the Correspondent forums, and at Fan Fest. Unfortunately, I missed the discussion at FF since it was in a different panel than I was at, and I didn't get the chance to bring it up in the PA / Cities panel since they wanted to give everyone a chance to ask questions if they could. What I'd like to see from the community (And something this particular community, the PA Community, has always been good at) is some "outside of the box" thinking about coming up with new solutions rather than putting back in an old system that the Devs won't do.
A raid system basically will allow 16, 24, or more sized member groups by merging them together to form a raid. Ideally, you'd have a special window healers could bring up to see the entire raid party to keep track of everyone. The entire raid would have one leader, probably the person who invited the second group or /makeraidleader was used, it would have raid loot options (Same as Group Loot, just for the entire raid, like a lottery system) so everyone would get loot, etc...
These are the types of suggestions the Devs would like to see and these are the types of ideas that they will consider for future implementation. It gives them ideas on new systems to integrate to make the game better which in turn would actually open up even MORE opportunities for groups than existed before. That's all I'm asking here. To dicuss new ideas, rather than dwelling on old ones that won't be brought back.
That's why I'm trying to encourage "outside of the box" thinking. Rather than trying to get something back that we won't get, and have been told we won't get, we need to think of things we would like to see as an alternative. Then as we compile those new ideas I can pass them on to the devs for consideration. Just saying "increase it beyond 8 because this system sucks" isn't going to get anything accomplished at all.
The 8 person limit was put into place because they balanced most content to revolve around 8 players when it came to grouping so that it would help more casual gamers rather than always requiring you to take part in a 20 person group if you wanted to play, and unless you're lucky or in a very large active guild (which not all guilds are very large and active) then it would be nearly impossible for it to work for casual players.
Now, with that said, yes 8 person groups do cause some issues when it comes to large scale PvP events, Entertainer Groups, Space Raids, etc.. That's why a Raid system was discussed here, in the Correspondent forums, and at Fan Fest. Unfortunately, I missed the discussion at FF since it was in a different panel than I was at, and I didn't get the chance to bring it up in the PA / Cities panel since they wanted to give everyone a chance to ask questions if they could. What I'd like to see from the community (And something this particular community, the PA Community, has always been good at) is some "outside of the box" thinking about coming up with new solutions rather than putting back in an old system that the Devs won't do.
A raid system basically will allow 16, 24, or more sized member groups by merging them together to form a raid. Ideally, you'd have a special window healers could bring up to see the entire raid party to keep track of everyone. The entire raid would have one leader, probably the person who invited the second group or /makeraidleader was used, it would have raid loot options (Same as Group Loot, just for the entire raid, like a lottery system) so everyone would get loot, etc...
These are the types of suggestions the Devs would like to see and these are the types of ideas that they will consider for future implementation. It gives them ideas on new systems to integrate to make the game better which in turn would actually open up even MORE opportunities for groups than existed before. That's all I'm asking here. To dicuss new ideas, rather than dwelling on old ones that won't be brought back.
ReemusDarksider
Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:22 am
#5
The last deleted discussion did not include any posts, "increase the group size, cause 8 sucks." It was deleted because some imature person decided to bring a guild dispute to our section. Normally the mods would just delete that post, but their deleting a constructive thread, that DID include discussion of the raid, but also discussion of the short comings of the new sys, shows that they will jump at the chance t get rid of the discussion as a whole.
I liked the old sys, ALOT of people did. That said, I like the raid sys in WoW, but am very leary of systems from other games being ported over. SWG was unique in many ways, now it is not so unique. In the post-CU reality, soloing was easiy, you hardly ever needed a full sized group of 20, so I don't understand your statment, "always requiring you to take part in a 20 person group if you wanted to play." There was no need to have 20, it was nice though to have the potential. MEK is huge, I mean really really big, and I don't mean to brag, only mentioning this to support my "constructive" argument. Before the CU, we would typically have one hunt night (thurs), and the rest of the week was either PvP or grinding. Now every day is an "everyman" for himself, because we can not organize large grind hunts, PvP armies are a pain to manage cause we often have to have 3 or more groups, which means we have to depend on the leadership of three or more diff people, and now there are always people left out of major beast hunts, when before we could bring our newbs along and have them stand back.
It is not very pleasant having to tell a poor newb he/she has to stay home because we have to pick the 6 best warriors to achieve our goal. As a guild of 260+ people, we have many programs in place to nurture our newbs, and go way out of our way to insure they do not get discouraged by the epicness of SWG. We have a huge Guild Harvestor Array outside our Commerce city, which fills up a large house with millions of resources, so that our newbs can grind up any crafting profesion they desire, and get them into a shop, or one of our malls selling wares as soon as possible. We had a similar program in place for our warriors. Hunt Leaders that would regularly organize grinding hunts to level up our new warriors and get them prepared for the battle field. We still have this program, but now we have to rely on more Hunt Leaders, and because of the new group sys, there are either people left behind because the group is filled, or watered down groups that often get slaughtered because we attempted to balance out thoose looking to grind, and due to the new sys being built around groups of 8, they are slaughtered.
This raid sys will not remidy this situation, unless the DEVs open up to allowing shared XP, which would not make sence because it would contradict their reasoning for getting rid of the large groups to begin with. Surely more discussion is needed on this subject. MEK is overly pleased with the CU, our guild has grown by a leap and a bound sence it was implemented, we are building a third city, and plans are on the drawing board for a fourth. But this new sys does cause problems for guilds big and small, when the old sys did not.
Was it due to server issues they decided to make the game less epic? I would gladly pay more a month for a return to the scope of battle enjoyed a few months ago, if thats whats needed. When you look at why people stick with SWG over other games, you find its because of things that they can not find in other games, liek the politics for one, the social organization and potential for nation building, when you start to whittle that away, and make the game more like other games, you make it less apealing, and less of a "Diamond in the Rough."
Rothin
Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:32 am
#6
Actually, in a typical raid situation, when loot is shared so would the xp for the kill. That's part of the point of raid groups in the first place. Content that would require that many people wouldn't be worth the effort if everyone in the raid didn't get the benefits such as xp. Wouldn't make much sense to have a raid system when only one group got xp, so I'd say when we see one in SWG, it'll be shared xp.
On the subjecting of porting over systems from other games, just because one game has a system no other game should? Just because one game has it, and another chooses to add it doesn't make either game less unique, rather it adds more to the game than it had before. A raid system would add new dimensions to SWG, not take away some unique appeal of it. SWG is the ONLY MMO based in the SW universe, that setting alone makes it unique from other games, especially that of WoW and EQ2 which are both fantasy based.
Features are features, they enhance the game, they don't *make* the game. They just make the game better than it was. If I see a cool feature in some other game, rather than playing twenty games for one little feature because it's cool, I'd rather see those cool features added into my favorite game so I can enjoy one superior MMO, and that's what my vision for SWG is. Take what we already have, all the unique aspects such as the most in depth crafting system ever, the social atmosphere and entertaning professions, the political aspects, and make them even better. If no game ever took a feature that another game had, then there would only be one MMO, because every game borrows systems from other games. The key to is to make that system BETTER than the other games that might have had it first, which is what I'm always striving to push for when it comes to Guilds in SWG. They could be so much more and they should be much more than they are.
On the subjecting of porting over systems from other games, just because one game has a system no other game should? Just because one game has it, and another chooses to add it doesn't make either game less unique, rather it adds more to the game than it had before. A raid system would add new dimensions to SWG, not take away some unique appeal of it. SWG is the ONLY MMO based in the SW universe, that setting alone makes it unique from other games, especially that of WoW and EQ2 which are both fantasy based.
Features are features, they enhance the game, they don't *make* the game. They just make the game better than it was. If I see a cool feature in some other game, rather than playing twenty games for one little feature because it's cool, I'd rather see those cool features added into my favorite game so I can enjoy one superior MMO, and that's what my vision for SWG is. Take what we already have, all the unique aspects such as the most in depth crafting system ever, the social atmosphere and entertaning professions, the political aspects, and make them even better. If no game ever took a feature that another game had, then there would only be one MMO, because every game borrows systems from other games. The key to is to make that system BETTER than the other games that might have had it first, which is what I'm always striving to push for when it comes to Guilds in SWG. They could be so much more and they should be much more than they are.
ReemusDarksider
Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:41 am
#7
I'm not being anti-progressive, I love SWG for its continually evolving atmosphere. If Raids due indeed allow for XP grinding, than my argument is mute. That said, why would they remove 20 person groups, then replace them with raids, they both achieve the same thing. I do not see the Devs including XP in Raids, Raids are more for PvP, no XP in that unless your a jedi.
My whole problem with all of this, is as I mentioned, the lack of an effiecent mass XP grinding method. If the Raids do infact include that, great, I will certainly be a happy camper, cause not only will the epicness return, but even more so (if the raid limit is 24). But why would they allow Raids for PvE, hen they designed all the content to revolve around groups of 8? We would have a dreaded return to geo and corvette farming. Not to mention there would be no elitness sence all a guild has todo is form up a massive Raid or medium lvl warriors or less, and go take out a dungeon that was designed for 8 elites?
Thunderheart
Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:40 pm
#8
Re: 8 Man Groups
8 person groups are not going to change. We will be instituting a Raid like chat system so multiple groups can coordinate better. As soon as we have more information, we will post about it.
Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Community Relations Manager
KyleKnox
Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:44 pm
#10
A full raid system would be nice (WoW ripoff). A "chat system" would bea half @ssed approach. How would loot splits work, or how would group transports in instances work??? Not at all, would be my guess.
Thunderheart wrote:
Re: 8 Man Groups
8 person groups are not going to change. We will be instituting a Raid like chat system so multiple groups can coordinate better. As soon as we have more information, we will post about it.
baxnzar
Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:46 pm
#11
Rothin wrote:
For the sake of discussion, discuss OTHER alternatives to group features you'd like to see to alleviate the 8 person limit. The Devs will not increase the number in a group, so rather than keep saying increase it when they will not, discuss other features you'd like to see as an alternative I can take to them as suggestions instead of getting a flat "no."
Ideas such as a Raid system to allow groups to link up and share looting rights as if they were one group, etc.. things like that.
If it turns into "We want more than 8 in a group" thread, it won't get anywhere with the devss.
I love it!
The devs only hear what they want to hear. Don't suggest something they are going to say no to anyway. Talk about something else. These are not the droids you're looking for.
Priceless.
We want more than 8 in a group. We never wanted grouping change in the first place.
Cancelled my subscrition.
Hear that?
GraySeven
Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:47 pm
#12
If 8 man groups are here to stay, then there needs to be group groups...ie raids....that allow multiple groups to act as one unit, not just some chat BS. Loot, harvesting, and xp are all an issue here and need to be a part of the raid system.
Otherwise, no creature should EVER be outside the realm of defeat of an 8 man group, and all creatures should be locked whenever combat is initiated to prevent kill stealing.
No POI should be outside the realm of an 8 person group either. I remember 8 level 76+ PC's getting owned at the door of the DWB....
Oh, and by 8 man group I mean a NORMAL 8 man group, not an 8 Jedi group.....
Message Edited by GraySeven on 06-16-2005 03:50 PM
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