Player Associations Archive
Thread: State of the Guilds Address 8-12-05
Greetings!
In the last two years plus, Star Wars Galaxies has had many ups and downs with various systems in the game. Overall, the progress of the game has been moving forward in a positive manner. Many systems have been altered, changed, or even created based on player feedback and expectations and it has made things a lot more fun for more individuals.
It’s been close to 7 months (1-28-05) or close to it since I last made a State of the Guilds address but felt that it was time to do so again. We’ve seen many changes over those last several months, just to highlight a few: The GCW Tef/Base changes, The Combat Upgrade, and lately Creature Handler, Bounty Hunter, Jedi changes, and a new slicing system for Smugglers. That’s only a few, but there has been a lot of great stuff done in the game and there is a lot left to be done.
Over the last 7 months, I’ve had the honor and privilege of being the Player Association Correspondent and have, as always, kept close ties with my community’s desires, expectations, and issues. We’ve seen some of ours addressed as well. We’ve had structure storage for Guild Halls increased (More of a general increase to housing, but still helps us a lot) and a new Guild Election/Manual Transfer system. Both are great improvements to Guilds.
However, with the introduction of the Guild Elections several months ago, many issues still remain with its implementation and continue to cause major issues and grief for many, many players in the game. It was a great stride forward, we just need to have it cleaned up so it can be appreciated for everything it truly is, a very awesome system for guilds.
During these last few months, that’s all that we’ve received. I’ve waited patiently, anxiously for when Guilds would finally get the respect and attention that we truly deserve, but that day has yet to come. I haven’t lost hope for it yet, but merely want to draw attention to our issues and most importantly, why guilds need this attention moving forward in the game.
In the recent months, we have seen new Massive Multiplayer games hit the market and have seen what they have done with guilds and their features. We have seen the ability to manage and maintain a list of guild members through a single interface window, the ability to set and assign ranks to each person, even guild insignias and a type of uniform. In another Sony Online Entertainment Game, Everquest II, recent improvements to their guild system has shown what a system can truly be. Guild Quests, Raids, a Management window allowing 8 (or more) namable ranks, assigning permissions based on the ranks for a VERY large array of options, and more. I believe that these games built on the design that we laid out in Star Wars Galaxies. I now think it’s time that we make sure that our design lives up to the potential that it has in place.
We have the unique opportunity to make sure that changes can be felt across the face of the game and by nearly the entire player base. Guilds have the unique design that ensures they touch a very large portion of the player base more than one single profession ever could because as a guild, we encompass all professions into our societies and groups. This gives Guilds the ability to affect the overall state of the game in a large way without impacting the actual play style or balance of the game. Since our systems are not intertwined with combat or crafting it allows for the free ability to experiment with new ideas and features without fear of unbalancing the game in any way.
It is my firm belief and that of the community that I represent, that if only a few fundamental changes could be made that you would see a quick improvement in the enjoyment of the players. If guilds are given the ability to help truly enhance the game from both a social aspect and also in a set of features to help intra-guild commerce and interactivity, better management features, and any number of ideas from my community we believe that players game-wide would be happier.
It has been my experience throughout many games that guilds are viewed as a ‘low priority’ when it comes to development and I believe that outlook should truly change. When you investigate and truly examine guilds and how they affect the player base you quickly learn that guilds are the biggest binding force of the community. The combat, crafting, and entertaining systems within the game are the shell, the body if you will, where as guilds complete the body by being the heart, pumping the blood throughout and bringing the game to life.
Guilds bring people together and keep them interested. We enhance the social aspect more than anyone else can because we combine the various professions into a single society that can either prosper or fail based on the people involved. We motivate our members to be better than they are, to try and try again, to ensure that they succeed and not fail. Guilds allow people to make friends that will keep them playing the game even when they would normally otherwise leave, because once you commit yourself to a guild and make those friends you are no longer able to picture leaving them behind.
It’s this type of potential that has yet to be truly recognized within a Massive Multiplayer Game and being a representative of this system in Star Wars Galaxies I want to ensure that we are the first to make this happen and to make sure that we live up to the games potential and truly become the best Massive Multiplayer Game ever! With your help we can do this and we will do this.
The following are the most CRITICAL aspects of guilds that must see improvements to keep them moving forward and help keep these player built and driven communities together. I see posts on these topics nearly every day, by every user, who comes to the Guild forums.
1. The Guild Interface: At Fan Fest this was discussed and even you guys agreed that it was terrible. This has by far always been our number one issue in the game. Recently, EQ2 took exactly what we’ve always been looking for and made it into reality. One single Guild Window that allows you to have personal/officer notes, assign and customize 8 ranks and names, assign permissions based on those ranks for each individual one, track what your members do in the game (complete quests, gain a skill, earn a badge, and toggle them on or off!). There are so many great examples of what our interface should be from EQ2. I once made screenshots reflecting how these types of windows could look within SWG, EQ2 made them ever better and easier to use than I had pictured.
a. This is a Day One and Since Launch issue we’ve had.
2. Guild Members Window: We’ve long needed this feature that every other MMO currently has. A Window showing who in your guild is online or offline at the current time. It should show when they were last online if they are offline (Today, 1 day, 2 days, etc...), what planet/space zone they are currently in if online, their rank/title, and be sort able by each category. Part of the interface problem.
a. This is also a launch day issue we’ve had. (Everquest first had this, Everquest 2 has made this feature even better)
3. Intra-guild Commerce: Tyrant once mentioned an idea for this during a discussion a long time ago now, where Merchants could have the ability to offer sales to guild members or individuals at special rates or just to them. This has been a long time request of both Merchants and Guilds. It allows us to work together to help provide for our guilds making us a stronger social group.
4. Guild Wars: As of late, this has become a very hot issue in the Guild forums. It’s a mean of delivering special content for guilds and has the potential to REALLY make the game interesting and fun by having conflicts with other guilds. The problem right now is that it’s WAY too grief able. It really needs a complete overhaul to be a fun and creative outlet for guilds and could make some very awesome content. We have an entire proposal in our Top 5 issues document.
Those are the most pressing matters for Guilds at the present time, and really have been for a VERY long time now. I’ve tried to explain just how important guilds are to Star Wars Galaxies and MMOs in general. I only hope that the right person reads this and understands that because we do have the opportunity to really take advantage of this and promote the game based on those factors. The Development time spent here would be extremely worthwhile for the overall health and stability of the future of the game.
You probably won’t ever see anyone who is more passionate about guilds and how they can improve the state of any game. I’ve been a Guild leader now for over 10 years throughout more games than I can count anymore. I know the ins and outs and I’ve made more friends through games than you could imagine. I know that guilds can strongly influence people remaining in a game because of those friendships and with the current ability for the social interactivity in Star Wars Galaxies, I know we can make this environment truly a place that other Massive Multiplayer could only dream of. I know I’m up for the challenge.
Rothin Skyshrine
Guild Leader - Player Association Correspondent
The Ry’kan Republic – Kauri Server
I recently just made this post to the Developers to try to help them understand our needs and desires as a community. I just wanted to show you guys what I said for them as well, so you know that I am truly trying to help make guilds better for us all.
With all due respect, Rothin. As a subscriber in this MMO,I do not think your assessment is fair. Private gaming associations, I agree, provide a social link. But private gaming organizations also have the potential to undermine and break down sociability in the game as well. It is natural for a guild leader of ten years to think that what is good for the private gaming associations is good for the game.
Guilds already have powers, organizational tools,and abilities as a collective body that make them very powerful, very able to shape content, and very able to control the server environment. But these powers have nothing to do with ingame tools. These powers have their basis in factors totally outside the game.
Family, friendships, third party communication systems, and the ironclad bonds that hold the guild together need no system to facilitate. The danger is not that private gaming associations are too weak, too incohesive, too unorganized, and have no identity. It is that they are too strong, too nepotistic, too insular, and too exclusive. As a player who has been either unguilded, or a member of small, roleplay oriented guilds, my fear is that if SWG starts to emphasize the importance of guild membership as a central feature in this game, that it will create more hostility, more grief, more exploitive play, and less sociability overall.
It is my belief that the guild is not the solution to greater sociability in MMOs.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-12-2005 10:32 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
With all due respect, Rothin. As a subscriber in this MMO,I do not think your assessment is fair. Private gaming associations, I agree, provide a social link. But private gaming organizations also have the potential to undermine and break down sociability in the game as well. It is natural for a guild leader of ten years to think that what is good for the private gaming associations is good for the game.
Guilds already have powers, organizational tools,and abilities as a collective body that make them very powerful, very able to shape content, and very able to control the server environment. But these powers have nothing to do with ingame tools. These powers have their basis in factors totally outside the game.
Family, friendships, third party communication systems, and the ironclad bonds that hold the guild together need no system to facilitate. The danger is not that private gaming associations are too weak, too incohesive, too unorganized, and have no identity. It is that they are too strong, too nepotistic, too insular, and too exclusive. As a player who has been either unguilded, or a member of small, roleplay oriented guilds, my fear is that if SWG starts to emphasize the importance of guild membership as a central feature in this game, that it will create more hostility, more grief, more exploitive play, and less sociability overall.
It is my belief that the guild is not the solution to greater sociability in MMOs.
In fact, it is part of the problem.
Guilds comprise a community unto themselves, and I agree, it can be a rather strong community.
However, this oftentimes results in an increased isolation with the rest of theserver as well. In fact, one can argue that with an increased reliance on the guild as the prefered--or only--conduit for content, enjoyment, and a full experience in an MMO, new and especially problematic concerns can arise.
When a player's enjoyment is tied to the guild, then what happens to the player when no guild members are on? Guild membership may even be a hinderence to greater sociability, and just as the guild provides a set of friends to the player, so too does it provide a set of enemies.
Inter-guild rivalry is an all too common sight on the servers today, and can often be seen as eruptions and flamefests on the boards here, and in the game. There was an incident in Everquest 2 recently with an inter-guild event that shows the dangers of promoting inter-guild rivalries. Oftentimes, the natural tendencies for a guild to strive to "be the best," brings out the worst aspects of a "guild centric" system:
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=105&message.id=7432#M7432
Guild membership, while naturally fostering mutual interdependence and community within itself, also naturally fosters hostility, animosity, and isolation outside of itself. By becoming a member of a guild, other players cannot help but associate the individual with all past, present, and future actions that guild has done--whether the player actually had anything to do with the incident, or not.
The problem only compounds itself when players in the guild leave, or move on to other games. In a game where a player's enjoyment is tied in strongly with the guild, then the absence of the guild means an absence of the game. In the worst case scenario, entire guilds may pack up and leave, because the bonds between the membersare so strong in fact, that guild members would rather move on with their guild, than stay in a place where their guild is no longer found.
There is also a question of fairness in play. Whenplayers read the requirements for the game, it does not require a membership to a private, in-game organization as part of either the minimum requirements, nor the recommended requirements. And yet, by creating content that is "guild only," unguilded players are paying for content that only guilded players can enjoy. And while this may not be all that problematic if guilds were required to accept any member that expressed interest, the very nature of guilds gives them powers of exclusivity toaccept or deny anyone they see fit.
I am of the belief that In a properly functioning MMO, guilds would not be needed. And that is because the verygame itself would draw players together for the tasks at hand, without the need forprivately owned social networkssuch as guilds.
Guilds are a very nice feature for players to share a common identity. But the game, and development should not be geared toward them, or require membership to them to get the full experience. Instead of encouraging membership in private, exclusive, and inward looking clubs; development should encourage players who are open to many aquaintances ouside of their own immediate friends, and outward looking toward new experiences, and new relations in the game. Certainly, membership in a guild can be considered a nice feature of the game. But it should never be promoted as a requirement of the game.
Measures that promote guild membership as a prerequisite to enjoyment is not only unhealthy for the server environment, but it is also unhealthy for the guild environment. Because it adds additional pressure on the guild to satisfy the needs of its membership, often at the expense of the personal enjoyment of some of the members. Can anyone here who is a member of a guild honestly say that they look forward to doing the Master Pilot mission they have done twelve times before, because if you do not help the guild member to do it, nobody else will?
That being said, I do agree with many of the internal guild commands you have suggested, Rothin. And I do, because many of them protect innocent players from the unfortunate circumstances surrounding guild functionality, especially in terms of item storage and distribution. Far too many times have I seen items--and even entire accounts--stolen, because guild members share account information with eachother to greater facilitate their common aims. Your guild commerce suggestion gives players an opportunity to be useful to eachother, without the dangerous alternatives.
I realize this post may be deleted, since many consider this forum a place where an unguilded player has no right to speak. But it is my belief that private gaming organizations in SWG are an equal source of social problems, and are far from a panacaea for the social ills of the game.
While I see nothing wrong with protecting players in guilds, and facilitation basic functionality in a secure way, players need the freedom not only to join private gaming organizations, but also to be able to enjoy the full SWG experience without them.
If players have to join a private gaming association to enjoy interdependence, roleplay, content, and interaction, then its the sign of a problem in the game, not a solution.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-12-200510:32 PM
Very well thought out post I'll give you that.
The problem is you need friends, reliable high level and experienced players which are usually only in guilds to go for the high-end content. You cannot solo all of the content in the game like you were once able too.
They are making it so people have to work together, if they are going to do that, then they do need to fix player associations and expand upon them.
This game will not return to the way it once, greater sociability and teamwork can only come from working with a group of players who have the experience and the knowledge to complete the content in the game, one cannot easily take down high-end content in the game by just getting random people to follow him or her in a group. Although you can make friends it is not easily a way to work together or learn about the game.
Not to mention PvP, to have a sucessful raid or base attack during PVP a team must work together and the only way to be effective without zerging your enemy ( aka Rushing the enemywith tons of people who have no idea what they are doing or their role in the battle). PvP requires teamwork, a teamwork which can rarely be achieved without having a group of friends who work together, know what they are doing, know their roles and know how to achieve them. If you just pick up a group of people randomly in a city and expect to PvP or do high end content you are most likely in for a miserable loss or disapointment.
If you have a group of people such as in a guild who use 3rd party communication programs (aka Ventrilo, Teamspeak) that know how to work together, that are friends and share each others knowledge then great content can be finished and achieved and everyone can have fun in the process.
But as you said it shouldn't be mandatory, but if you have tested out the CU at all then you will know that the entire upgrade is now all about grouping, teamwork, not about 80% composite armor and buffs and a good acklay baton. To achieve victory this game now requires more teamwork than before, and the best way to organize teamwork is a guild.
Guilds are a very nice feature for players to share a common identity. But the game, and development should not be geared toward them, or require membership to them to get the full experience.
Message Edited by Dromag67 on 08-13-2005 06:20 PM
Just about every person who posts on this forum agrees with the things that I asked for in my address because they are posted about, asked for, even demanded for, on a near daily basis by numerous people. It's not something one person wants, it's something the entire guild community wants for their guilds. They aren't seeking complete power or domination over non guild players or any other sinister idea as some might imply. They simply want the tools that other games on the market already offer to their subscribers so that we can enjoy aspects of the game that others do in those games.
I think 99% of this forum community, The Guild Community, would agree with that. There will always be bad apples in guilds and their leaders or actions, but the majority of guilds are not like that. They simply keep close nit groups of friends who help each other out and enjoy the game with each other. That's what guilds are truly about. Problem is, we get stereotyped by some people.
Reading your post guilds are exploiters, unsociable (out-of-guild) and dont care about un-guilded people. This is not true. My guild tries to help out guild members and anybody else who needs help. Would I do the mission for master pilot for the 12th time, yes I would, I would enjoy spending time with my guild members because i get along with them all and we have a good laugh doing things. As long as i wasnt in the middle of anything else and if i was i would say "maybe later, you could try and find somebody else that would help you" There is nearly always somebody else out of guild who will help a guilded member.
Saying creating guild only content is bad because people who choose not to be in guilds cant do it is like saying that there should be no profession specific content at all and only content that all people can do (which there should be and is).
You seem to think that once people are guilded they are not allowed to have friends outside of the guild, that they cannot ask for help from people outside of the guild. Guilds that ask this of you are not good guilds. Maybe you had a bad experience in a guild, bad leader maybe, annoying members? You will not like everybody in the guild, you are not made to like everybody in the guild, be nice maybe but you dont have to like them.
If players wanted to do the guild specific content then im sure they would try and join a guild. When they brought out the new BH missions (boss marks and all) players chose to drop their profession and go bounty hunter to get access to that peice of content.
In my opinion all professions inc. guilds should have specific content. Guild content would be aimed at groups of players and most (not all) players that are not in guilds do not want to be in guilds, not that they cant find a guild who wants them.
To me guilds are a bunch of players who like to talk, hunt, craft, dance and just generaly muck about together. They should help each other out as much as they can but not if they dont want to do it or on their own timetable. Real guild members should understand that the guild cant help them with everything. Some/msot people will go to their out-of-guild friends first to help them as they have normaly been with them in game for sometime. Players should be able to do things out of guild and not have to rely on guilds all the time.
Guilds are something special, they allow groups of players who have similar views to talk and play together.
Of course there are some "bad" guilds out their, some that seem to have all the players with "bad attitudes", they are on every server but there are also "bad" people on servers that are not in guild. If you have a problem with a member you go to their leader and (s)he should listen to you and have a chat with that member, if they dont and they just disrespect you then they are not a good leader and there guild will proberly not be around for much longer.
Personaly I have made some very good friends that i would not have made if i were not guilded. Some of these friends are in my current guild, others are not.
Well thought outpost by the way and everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
Also thanks to Rothin for the post and showing his support and vision of what guild need and should be.
Message Edited by Stena on 08-14-2005 01:07 PM
First of all, thank you all for your understanding reception. It was much more kind than my last reception on this sort of subject.
This is a board that has as its subject matter two, important concepts:
Player associations, and grouping.
The two subjects are not the same. The fact that many see them as the same thing highlights an interesting trend, that we would do best to explore.
There are those that are here that have stated the argument along the lines of, "There are bad guilds out there, filled with bad players, but certainly not in my guild. My guild is filled with good players."
But frankly, that goes without saying, doesn't it? Because I would venture to say that every guild would say that exact same thing, and would honestly believe it, as well.
I haven't met a guild yet who doesn't truly believe that their players arethe bestplayers on the server, do not exploit, are an asset to the servers, rather than a liability, and gives to the server more than they take. Nor have I met a guild who didn't think there were not bad guilds out there, who cheat, exploit, grief, and chase players away. But certainly not in their guild. But then the question becomes, does this not depend on what a guild considers "good conduct?"
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that legitimate complaints leveled against their membership are addressed, and rectified. But then the question becomes, what is a "legitimate complaint?"
And I honestly do not think that private player associations can be blamed for doing whatever they think is proper for the benefit of the game, and especially for the benefit of their members.
The problem is, however, is that what is good for the guild, and what the guild truly believes is good for the game, is actually good for the game, and all the players that play within it?
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that players would be much better off if they used the third party voice program their guild uses, rather than rely on the text-based communication systems provided. The problem is, there are many players who will never use those applications in general, or the specific application in particular, and are wondering why other players cannot bring themselves to use the common communication system we all share?
So when a player who is kicked out of a raiding group because they are not hooked up to a vioce system makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "whywas I kicked out ofyour guild's group?,"to the guild governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the player chooses not to play the way the guild, and the guild's friends, play, the guild sees no reason to see it as any concern.
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that the servers benefit by having 24/7 macro-driven entertainers and healers in their player city, so that all can benefit from the guild's efforts. The problem is, there are many doctors and entertainers who would rather have that role that the game has given to them be filled by actual players, and are wondering why the guild has to put their own interests ahead of the interests of other doctors and entertainers?
So when the doctor or entertainer makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "why can't you use other active players for your needs?," to the guild governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the guild sees their own interest of providing healing and buffing services at all hours for their visitors and residents as an actual benefit to the server as a whole, the guild sees the complaint as unwarranted.
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that they add to player content, and the fostering of an overall good game environment through the use of /cityban, so that "griefing" cannot occur within city limits. The problem is, there are players that may be in the opposite faction, of a specific profession, or of a specific guild that are not there with the intent tocause trouble,and are wondering why they are getting banned from shuttleports and cantinas?
So when the visitor makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "why did you ban me from the shuttleport?," to the guild's governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the guild honestly believes the visitor is there to cause trouble, and see it as beneficial to the server as a whole to prevent trouble, then the guild sees the complaint as unwarranted.
These are just some examples of the problems inherent when groups of like-minded players pursue their own interests, and see their own interests as in the game's interest as well. I have no doubt that guilds honestly believe they only pursue what is reasonable and good, for not only their own members, but for the game as a whole. After all, if a player's friends all see nothing wrongwith the practices of the guild, and everything around the player affirms it to be unproblematic and good, then it is understandable how players can automatically associate the guild's interests, with the server's interests, and the game's interests.
There is an interesting post below this one that is attempting to put forward a "guild code of ethics." And I think this is rather interesting, and highlights the paradox of the guild in the MMO.
Because it is not SOE, but the guild that defines what is good and bad, right and wrong, good conduct, and bad conduct. And because such definitionsoftentimes area matter of interpretation, guilds will always be accused of cheating, taking liberties with the game, adding to grief, and promoting an antisocial atmosphere.
PoetDancer wrote:
First of all, thank you all for your understanding reception. It was much more kind than my last reception on this sort of subject.
You're welcome.I'm sure it has something to do with the same courtesy that you're providing. Which, you'll probably agree, is far too rare in differences of opinion on message boards.
I'll be snipping to get to the proverbial "bullet points" in my responses.
The two subjects are not the same. The fact that many see them as the same thing highlights an interesting trend, that we would do best to explore.
I don't think so many see them as "the same thing" as they see PA's simply being more conducive to convenient grouping.
The problem is, however, is that what is good for the guild, and what the guild truly believes is good for the game, is actually good for the game, and all the players that play within it?
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that players would be much better off if they used the third party voice program their guild uses, rather than rely on the text-based communication systems provided. The problem is, there are many players who will never use those applications in general, or the specific application in particular, and are wondering why other players cannot bring themselves to use the common communication system we all share?
So when a player who is kicked out of a raiding group because they are not hooked up to a vioce system makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "whywas I kicked out ofyour guild's group?,"to the guild governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the player chooses not to play the way the guild, and the guild's friends, play, the guild sees no reason to see it as any concern.
Well...maybe the guilds that use such third-party apps find them useful. For our part, GTN doesn't use one at all. (Now, granted, I've been on speakerphone with a couple of our members while playing...but that's because we're friends IRL, and our phone conversations are more on the personal level, with the occasional, "Holy frak! Look out for that!" thrown in. :smileyvery-happy
Now, where guilds that do rely on such apps are concerned, most that I've seen who strongly adhere to the apps' use are pretty up-front about such requirements in their recruiting. If they are, that "player kicked out of a raiding group" knew the score going in. If they're not, then the kicked player is justified in his/her confusion.
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that they add to player content, and the fostering of an overall good game environment through the use of /cityban, so that "griefing" cannot occur within city limits. The problem is, there are players that may be in the opposite faction, of a specific profession, or of a specific guild that are not there with the intent tocause trouble,and are wondering why they are getting banned from shuttleports and cantinas?
So when the visitor makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "why did you ban me from the shuttleport?," to the guild's governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the guild honestly believes the visitor is there to cause trouble, and see it as beneficial to the server as a whole to prevent trouble, then the guild sees the complaint as unwarranted.
At the risk of sounding rude, it appears that you're mentally merging two different system here, yourself.
Guilds and militia functions are two separate systems, just as guilds and grouping are. Now, some guilds do indeed serve as militias. The precursor to GTN offered its services to New Haven as an "elite miltia," although there were militia members who weren't members of the guild. With that guild scuttled (due to issues that would have been non-issues with changes to the PA election process that have since been implemented...figures, right?), this is no longer the case. So, the potential abuse of /cityban is more a "Cities & Housing" forum issue than a "PA's & Grouping" forum issue.
There is an interesting post below this one that is attempting to put forward a "guild code of ethics." And I think this is rather interesting, and highlights the paradox of the guild in the MMO.
I'm not sure how it's a paradox. GTN requires all potential members to read & agree to our Charter, which includes the following requirement: "Demeanor - GTN members will conduct themselves appropriately at all times, according to SOE's terms of service and community standards. GTN members will not defraud clients."
I have no doubt that guilds feel perfectly capable of having more responsibility over the creation of content. After all, nobody here in this forum is in one of those "bad guilds" I hear mentioned. Its always those "other guilds" that are causing the problems, yes?
Don't know about anyone here, but, for better or for worse, my stepbrother was fairly proud of being a bad egg in a "bad guild," and wore his repeated suspensions as a badge of honor. Well...until the permaban, that is.Goofy kid.
PoetDancer wrote:
First of all, thank you all for your understanding reception. It was much more kind than my last reception on this sort of subject.
This is a board that has as its subject matter two, important concepts:
Player associations, and grouping.
The two subjects are not the same. The fact that many see them as the same thing highlights an interesting trend, that we would do best to explore.
There are those that are here that have stated the argument along the lines of,
"There are bad guilds out there, filled with bad players, but certainly not in my guild. My guild is filled with good players."
Since there is obviously no way to prove to you that a guild is good or not, shall we assume that all guilds are morally corrupt and lack ethics? Grouping is only a smaller less cohesive form of moving toward a common goal. I am going to go off on a limb and just assume that you prefer grouping over guilding. Grouping can do the same sort of griefing albeit less organized with random people.
But frankly, that goes without saying, doesn't it? Because I would venture to say that every guild would say that exact same thing, and would honestly believe it, as well.
Haha, then you haven't met the guilds on Bria.
I haven't met a guild yet who doesn't truly believe that their players arethe bestplayers on the server, do not exploit, are an asset to the servers, rather than a liability, and gives to the server more than they take.
My guild is not only imperfect but I work on helping newer players better understand the game, how to level up, and how to work on high-end content. I know many members aren't perfect and have kicked a few for just what you talk about. The fact is, not all guilds are bad, and not all guilds are perfect either, but believe it or not most high end content can only be completed with a organized group of individuals that know how to work together and what they are doing. Thats how this game is, now if you were to play a different game it would be a different story.
Nor have I met a guild who didn't think there were not bad guilds out there, who cheat, exploit, grief, and chase players away. But certainly not in their guild. But then the question becomes, does this not depend on what a guild considers "good conduct?"
Your getting a tad bit mixed up, you can cheat, exploit, grief and chase players away whether or not you are in a guild. Guilds can simply expand the problem if not dealt with, the only problem a guild would serve if the guild leader(s) advocated the use of cheats and exploits and griefing, then at that point would it become a guild problem not just a player problem.
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that legitimate complaints leveled against their membership are addressed, and rectified. But then the question becomes, what is a "legitimate complaint?"
That would obviously be up to the leadership, which once again decides whether or not the complaint is legitimate, unless of course you are speaking of complaing to CSR's.
And I honestly do not think that private player associations can be blamed for doing whatever they think is proper for the benefit of the game, and especially for the benefit of their members.
The problem is, however, is that what is good for the guild, and what the guild truly believes is good for the game, is actually good for the game, and all the players that play within it?
Guilds that do exploiting, cheating and griefing and chasing players away would not be doing it for the benefit of the server now would they? Do you think that they actually believe they are benefiting the server?
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that players would be much better off if they used the third party voice program their guild uses, rather than rely on the text-based communication systems provided. The problem is, there are many players who will never use those applications in general, or the specific application in particular, and are wondering why other players cannot bring themselves to use the common communication system we all share?
Have you ever tried organizing a high-end content raid with a full group and organizing it with text base and getting everyone to understand what their role and position is?
Without of course all being close friends and experienced players, it is a very daunting task to say the least. Guilds set the bar for their guild, they don't set the bar for the server or the game. What one guild may chose as a good communication program will indeed differ from guild to guild depending on each guild's priorities, if the guilds priorities involve entertaining and crafting it would be pointless to use a 3rd party communication program. If the guild organized high end pvp-base raids a 3rd party communication program is almost vital, one doesn't need to speak into a microphone to be able to listen to the organization or understand the undertaking that is going on before them. They can simply listen with speakers. A lot of times players don't read or will miss what the leader says or mis-understand what their role is using text, but if you listen it is very much easier.
Then again this differs from guild to guild and does not dictate server and game mandate.
So when a player who is kicked out of a raiding group because they are not hooked up to a vioce system makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "whywas I kicked out ofyour guild's group?,"to the guild governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the player chooses not to play the way the guild, and the guild's friends, play, the guild sees no reason to see it as any concern.
The guild should of pointed out that their 3rd party program was mandatory before letting them into that event or even the guild. If the guild was neglegant and never told the member ahead of time it is obviously the guild leadership fault, not the member. And of course the member always has the choice to leave and find a guild who only uses text based communication.
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that the servers benefit by having 24/7 macro-driven entertainers and healers in their player city, so that all can benefit from the guild's efforts. The problem is, there are many doctors and entertainers who would rather have that role that the game has given to them be filled by actual players, and are wondering why the guild has to put their own interests ahead of the interests of other doctors and entertainers?
Once again the guild doesn't believe it benefits the server, it would only benefit the guild and the guild's objective in the game, you obviously don't realize how hard it is to find entertainers to come to your player cantina that aren't in your guild.
So when the doctor or entertainer makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "why can't you use other active players for your needs?," to the guild governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the guild sees their own interest of providing healing and buffing services at all hours for their visitors and residents as an actual benefit to the server as a whole, the guild sees the complaint as unwarranted.
Then mabey you should be an activist for a feature that would allow us to find other player doctors and entertainers that are willing to come support your city other than spamming and aimlessly wandering.
Which is the easier?
Making a buffbot or finding a real person that is interested in helping your city.
I would venture to say that guilds honestly believe that they add to player content, and the fostering of an overall good game environment through the use of /cityban, so that "griefing" cannot occur within city limits. The problem is, there are players that may be in the opposite faction, of a specific profession, or of a specific guild that are not there with the intent tocause trouble,and are wondering why they are getting banned from shuttleports and cantinas?
So when the visitor makes what they believe to be a legitimate complaint of, "why did you ban me from the shuttleport?," to the guild's governing body, the guild sees it as no complaint at all. Since the guild honestly believes the visitor is there to cause trouble, and see it as beneficial to the server as a whole to prevent trouble, then the guild sees the complaint as unwarranted.
Completely different situation, we are talking about player guilds, not player city features.
These are just some examples of the problems inherent when groups of like-minded players pursue their own interests, and see their own interests as in the game's interest as well. I have no doubt that guilds honestly believe they only pursue what is reasonable and good, for not only their own members, but for the game as a whole. After all, if a player's friends all see nothing wrongwith the practices of the guild, and everything around the player affirms it to be unproblematic and good, then it is understandable how players can automatically associate the guild's interests, with the server's interests, and the game's interests.
There is an interesting post below this one that is attempting to put forward a "guild code of ethics." And I think this is rather interesting, and highlights the paradox of the guild in the MMO.
Because it is not SOE, but the guild that defines what is good and bad, right and wrong, good conduct, and bad conduct. And because such definitionsoftentimes area matter of interpretation, guilds will always be accused of cheating, taking liberties with the game, adding to grief, and promoting an antisocial atmosphere.
I have no doubt that guilds feel perfectly capable of having more responsibility over the creation of content. After all, nobody here in this forum is in one of those "bad guilds" I hear mentioned. Its always those "other guilds" that are causing the problems, yes?
But then, if it is true that guilds can be responsible for a more central role in content, then why is it that so much content has been taken away from all of us, like /citywarn, NPC actors, the FRS, and TEFs, because groups of friends, allies, and like-minded players were unaware that they were doing anything wrong when utilizing these things in a way that caused problems for others?
Whether or not guilds are in the game, all of those systems would of been exploited, whether or not a large group of individuals use the system under one name they would be exploited. It is the games inherent flaw with its features that allow griefing, people are always going to find a group of friends and individuals that will work together for the groups benefit to help one another. Whether or not there are PA features in this game is irrelevant, this game is guild based. Have you ever seen a non guilded person create a full set of mandalorian armor, or a jet pack? I sure as heck haven't, anyway you put it there is a guild involved.
It is because, despite it all, guilds can only ever be responsible for their interests. It is beyond the scope of their mission to be stewards of the game. As long as their interests are taken care of, a guild is a success. And it is a rather easy thing to think of the guild's interests as being the same as the server's interests.
But then the question becomes, is it actually true?
The fact of the matter is guilds will never go away. People enjoy the companies of others, and when in the company of others they create a family, a group, a guild, a clan, a squad. Whether or not there are features in the game to support this, these groups of people will always be good and be bad. There will always be groups that exploit, and groups that help new players understand the game itself. There will always be self serving individuals who enjoy stealing from one another.
The question is, would removing guild features from SWG actually stop exploiting and the removal of the features you listed, would it stop griefing, would it stop cheating, and chasing players away.
I for one support what Rothin is trying to do, why not fix the bugs that plauge the game, why not make it more simple?
Why not make the game more enjoyable for the guilds that are there, because like I said they aren't going to go away, and although I agree with some of the things that you say, guilds aren't ALL evil like you make them out to be.
Message Edited by Dromag67 on 08-15-2005 04:56 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
With all due respect, Rothin. As a subscriber in this MMO,I do not think your assessment is fair. Private gaming associations, I agree, provide a social link. But private gaming organizations also have the potential to undermine and break down sociability in the game as well. It is natural for a guild leader of ten years to think that what is good for the private gaming associations is good for the game.
Guilds already have powers, organizational tools,and abilities as a collective body that make them very powerful, very able to shape content, and very able to control the server environment. But these powers have nothing to do with ingame tools. These powers have their basis in factors totally outside the game.
But what is missing is tools inside the game. Without these tools, the guild leaders require to do all the work themselves which is a daunting task. Added these ingame tools, will allow a guild leader to organize his guild with minimal effort, and be able to provide ingame content that. Things like MOTD, guild badges for completing guild missions, guild ranks, wars. These things are tools that guilds can use to add content to the game, and keep players playing instead of moving onto other MMOs.
Family, friendships, third party communication systems, and the ironclad bonds that hold the guild together need no system to facilitate. The danger is not that private gaming associations are too weak, too incohesive, too unorganized, and have no identity. It is that they are too strong, too nepotistic, too insular, and too exclusive. As a player who has been either unguilded, or a member of small, roleplay oriented guilds, my fear is that if SWG starts to emphasize the importance of guild membership as a central feature in this game, that it will create more hostility, more grief, more exploitive play, and less sociability overall.
Your fear is not well placed. The systems that Rothin is suggesting are not systems that will emphasize being in a guild. If you truely dislike being in a guild, that should not matter. The systems that Rothin is asking for are there to facilitate easy managment of the guild, and additional systems to create guild content. If you are not in a guild, you still have groups, GCW and PvE content, but that does not mean that guilds should have no attention because you like to be unguilded. I like to be a non-Jedi. Does that mean that the devs should not spend any time on the Jedi profession?
It is my belief that the guild is not the solution to greater sociability in MMOs.
And it is my belief that it is. If guilds did not exist in SWG, the game would probably have closed its doors a year ago. Guilds do more then bring people together. It gives them a reason to log into the game. Many players play a MMO for a few months, then are ready to move on. It is the guild that keeps them playing. They make friends, they do guild events, they have fun. MMOs are MM for a reason. For player interaction. You seemto want to take that aspect away from the game.
In fact, it is part of the problem.
Guilds comprise a community unto themselves, and I agree, it can be a rather strong community.
However, this oftentimes results in an increased isolation with the rest of theserver as well. In fact, one can argue that with an increased reliance on the guild as the prefered--or only--conduit for content, enjoyment, and a full experience in an MMO, new and especially problematic concerns can arise.
You must have been in some bad guilds in the past, or maybe you have never tried it, so you don't know. Good guilds for alliances with other guilds. They don't isolate themselves from the rest of the server population, but instead work with other guilds towards some comon goal. The biggest goal in SWG is the GCW so guilds can even rival over a comon goal.
When a player's enjoyment is tied to the guild, then what happens to the player when no guild members are on?
Just because they are in a guild, does not mean that non-guild functionality is not available to them. What do you do as an unguilded player in this game?
Guild membership may even be a hinderence to greater sociability, and just as the guild provides a set of friends to the player, so too does it provide a set of enemies.Inter-guild rivalry is an all too common sight on the servers today, and can often be seen as eruptions and flamefests on the boards here, and in the game. There was an incident in Everquest 2 recently with an inter-guild event that shows the dangers of promoting inter-guild rivalries. Oftentimes, the natural tendencies for a guild to strive to "be the best," brings out the worst aspects of a "guild centric" system:
Inter-guild rivalry is not a reason to not be in a guild. It is just a fact of life. Even in RL (work, group of friends, etc...) there are rivalries. That is part of being part of a society. Guilds do not create these rivalries, it is people. Guilds are not the problem here. This happens even outside of guilds. The interesting thing about guilds, is even though some may be a dictatorship, it is always a democrocy. Anyone can leave a guild at any time, so if a guild is not working, it loses its members. If it works well, and makes players happy, it prospers.
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=105&message.id=7432#M7432
Guild membership, while naturally fostering mutual interdependence and community within itself, also naturally fosters hostility, animosity, and isolation outside of itself. By becoming a member of a guild, other players cannot help but associate the individual with all past, present, and future actions that guild has done--whether the player actually had anything to do with the incident, or not.
Your right, like when a country does something, all of its citizens are associated with that action. This is a fact of life.
The problem only compounds itself when players in the guild leave, or move on to other games. In a game where a player's enjoyment is tied in strongly with the guild, then the absence of the guild means an absence of the game. In the worst case scenario, entire guilds may pack up and leave, because the bonds between the membersare so strong in fact, that guild members would rather move on with their guild, than stay in a place where their guild is no longer found.
You must think people are neive. People don't rely on guilds, they exploit them. They use guilds to provide an avenue of fun that the game otherwise is incappable of providing. Without a guild, they can still play the game, but they search for a guild to facilitate what the game cannot. What you say about guilds packing up is very true, but it is not a worst case scenario, but rather a best case scenario. I think it is a great that a guild can last beyond the aspect of one game. That they can move onto other games and still be friends. I think the problem you face is that guilds are nothing more then a means to an ends, but it really is a fellowship. People join guilds to make friends, and maintain friends. It is not about needing to be in a guild, but the reason why people play MMOs to begin with. To make and keep friends.
There is also a question of fairness in play. Whenplayers read the requirements for the game, it does not require a membership to a private, in-game organization as part of either the minimum requirements, nor the recommended requirements. And yet, by creating content that is "guild only," unguilded players are paying for content that only guilded players can enjoy. And while this may not be all that problematic if guilds were required to accept any member that expressed interest, the very nature of guilds gives them powers of exclusivity toaccept or deny anyone they see fit.
I never saw a requirement list for this game (except system requirements). But the actual fact is we are not asking for guilds to be required. We are asking for the devs to give us some deserved attention so we can properly manage our guilds. The fact is, that the majority of players are guilded, which means guilds should be a high priority. That does not mean one has to be in a guild. In the past, Jedi have received more attention then smuggler. I don't want to be a Jedi, but according to your argument, we are being forced to be a Jedi to play this game, which is not true.
I am of the belief that In a properly functioning MMO, guilds would not be needed. And that is because the verygame itself would draw players together for the tasks at hand, without the need forprivately owned social networkssuch as guilds.
But the actual fact is, a MMO without guilds would fail within its first year. Either that or the guilds get formed outside of the game mechanics. You can't get away that people want to make friends, and be part of a group. The ultimate fact is that people don't trust people they don't know. I know many people that won't group with non guild members because they never get loot in the group, or one player is dumb and spams the lair until 20 mobs spawn and the group is dead. In the long run, a guildless system is doomed to fail.
If players have to join a private gaming association to enjoy interdependence, roleplay, content, and interaction, then its the sign of a problem in the game, not a solution.
I had to cut a chunk as I have to finish up, but you are dead wrong that it is a problem in the game, it is a fact of an MMO. The fact is, in an MMO, a player can finish content faster then the devs can write it. In the end, with monthly updates, players are left with nothing to do for 3 weeks a month on average. Group mechanics don't provide the focus needed to fill that time. Guild mechanics can. Ina non MMO (like a FPS or a multiplayer RPG) a player usually plays for a few months, then stops playing the game. That is what will happen to MMOs except they have guilds to hold people interested.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-12-2005 10:32 PM
Message Edited by atytula on 08-16-2005 10:26 AM
I certainly would not say that "all guilds are bad."
What I would say, is that good play and bad play has no place when talking about guilds. What is good is what is good for the membership. What is bad, is what is bad for the membership. And I'm not blamingthe guild for doing what is in their best interests. Frankly, what good is a guild if it doesn't promote what is in the interests of the members of the guild?
Exploit, however, is a very loose term. So to say that "my guild doesn't exploit" dosen't tell me much. The only real concern any guild needs to have is that their members don't get banned, which is in and of itself "self-interested," yes? So it seems to me that guilds can pretty much justify any exploit as being "good play," as long as they do not get banned.
Nor do I think Rothin's additions are wrong for PA's to have. But the reason I think they are smart has very little to do with strengthening PAs, but it has more to do with protectingplayers from bad experiences within their own PAs. Account sharing, admin lists, and other contrivances guilded players use to facilitate "the good of the guild," are responsible for so much of the grief that occurs.
What I find truly strange, however,is why in the initial post, such an effort was made to emphasize the guild as "the heart of the community?" And the reason I find it strange, is that I was under the impression that it went without saying that friends prefer the company of their friends, and those inside the private community prefer the private community, and do whatever it takes to enrich their particular community.
The fact of the matter is, I can't blame a guild for doing what is inits own best interest, and it goes without saying that those within an organization prefer those within the organization, gain acceptance there, form social bonds, and work together.
But what I can blame guilds for is the creation of a lot of animosity and antisocial behaviour. If the guild is at the heart ofthe communityin SWG, as Rothin states, then itmust also be at the heart of all the animosity and anti-social behaviour as well.
However, I never hear guild systemtake the responsibility for the play of the servers seriously. They only take the credit for fostering the sociability within their own, self-interested "tribe," but always, as we have seen, see the system as blameless for promoting bad sociability.
It is always, as was stated, "not in my guild," and, "sorry, but we are doing nothing that SOEcan ban us for doing."
If it is how Rothin states, guilds,"enhance the social aspect more than anyone else can," then it must also be true that guilds "degrade the social aspect more than anyone else can."
So please. I know it is outside of my power to make guilds go away, nor would I really want them to go away. But what I'd wish is that they be better stewards of the game as a whole.
As an unguilded player, I have no choice but to leave it up to you all to take that responsibility seriously. All I have is my plea.
Make the game better for all players, not just better for your friends in your guild.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 08-16-2005 02:03 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
So please. I know it is outside of my power to make guilds go away, nor would I really want them to go away. But what I'd wish is that they be better stewards of the game as a whole.
I can't disagree with this statement. But I look at guilds a little different then Rothin (but our ideals are in the same place). I look at guilds as two things.
1. A system to bring people of like minds together under a comon goal. Even if a MMO doesn't provide that system, guilds will still form.
2. A system where people can work together to enrich the game and give it long term playablility. The more in game tools available to facilitate this system makes the guild that more productive and will keep more people playing (goal of the devs).
The first point is important. Many goals in a MMO cannot be completed solo (especially after the CU). A guild brings like minded people together. Examples of this are crafting guilds, where everyone in the guild has the goal to get good loot and resources to sell crafted goods. Another example is a GCW guild, whose goal is to fight in the GCW in any way possible. Many guils try to be diverse, and I think they are the guilds you are talking about, because without that focus, with all their differences, you can get friction.
The second point is more where Rothin is getting at. Guilds provide a service for SOE. They keep players playing the game, and hence paying the monthly rate. If guilds did not exist, SWG would have merged servers over a year ago and populations will be smaller on the servers. That is what makes it the "heart" of the comunity, and hence deserves some development time so we can increase the focus of our guilds and make it easier to maintain the guilds. The end result is more players keep playing, which is good for everyone (even the unguilded).
I'm behind you Rothin 100%. It is time that we got our fair share of development time.
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