Pistoleer Archive
Thread: 129 pistol speed-Is it worth it?
Defense vs Dizzy +50
Defense vs Intimidate +10
Defense vs Knockdown +50
Defense vs Posture Change +20
Defense vs Stun +40
Dodge +125 (capped)
Melee Defense +111
Melee Mitigation +1
Pistol Accuracy +125
Pistol Accuracy While Moving +5
Pistol Accuracy While Standing +15
Pistol Speed +109
Ranged Defense +86
Ranged Mitigation +3
Remove the word pratically and you are right on. Speed mods are a percent reduction in speed. So anything over +100 is of no use. How is someone suppose to be have say 105% speed reduction when 100% lowers it to 0 (zero)?
kinlarron wrote:
due to the current speed calculation(exponential) anything over 100 spd is practically useless.
http://www.cybra.net/swg/speedcalc.phpgo there and pop in 100 player speed, youl notice every special is fired at the 1.0 cap no matter what the weapon speed is. ive tested up to 10.0 and everything still fires at the cap. since its almost impossable to get a pistol with a 10.0 spd i think your safe
please note that post CB this will prolly change, as their redoing the speed calculations
never know when you may be wrong about somthing
smolotov wrote:
Thanks Alot.
I am going to drop master and try pistoleer 4144, Fencer 4020, BH 3040 instead. The stats below are what I would get and it looks alot better then wasted speed and accuracy. I took a maximizing my strengths approach and stat wise, it looks pretty good.
Defense vs Blind +50
Defense vs Dizzy +50
Defense vs Intimidate +10
Defense vs Knockdown +50
Defense vs Posture Change +20
Defense vs Stun +40
Dodge +125 (capped)
Melee Defense +111
Melee Mitigation +1
Pistol Accuracy +125
Pistol Accuracy While Moving +5
Pistol Accuracy While Standing +15
Pistol Speed +109
Ranged Defense +86
Ranged Mitigation +3
I know you want that, but try instead, bear with me, BH 4-4-4-0, Master Pistoleer, Carbineer 0-3-0-0, Novce Medic. I say this cause you will be very good with the carbine. Able to do dizzy KD, keep them flopping, use cripple shot/stopping shot for the kill. Personally, I like this template a lot better.
Waste93 wrote:
Remove the word pratically and you are right on. Speed mods are a percent reduction in speed. So anything over +100 is of no use. How is someone suppose to be have say 105% speed reduction when 100% lowers it to 0 (zero)?
Vaelorn wrote:
I wish the major overhaul of the SWG combat system would happen faster than the 7+ months we've been waiting for it. All I have to say is, it should NEVER EVER be possible for a 6.5spd T-21 rifle to fire faster than a 1.8spd DX2 pistol, under ANY circumstance, period. The speed calculations aren't just wonky and dysfunctional, they're completely and utterly broken. When Rifleman (intended to be biggest hit + slowest attack speed) is actually firing faster than the Pistoleer (intended to be smallest hit + fastest attack speed), something needs to be fixed, and not a year after release.
Have to disagree. The weapon speed listed is not a mechanical limitation on the weapon. If you read about the T21 you will see that it fires at 1/sec at it's SLOWEST speed. The speed represents aim time. Which is why when someone progresses in a profession they attack faster. They are increasing their ability to aim and fire at a quicker rate. The ability to better hold the weapon on target.
The technology in the weapons is going to be similar. It's just a difference in size really. Think of a semi auto pistol and a semi auto rifle. They have the same rate of fire because they use the same technology. Even blasters would follow this. So the mechanical limitation on fire rates would be practically the same for a pistol, rifle, or carbine.
However the fire rates of these weapons are easy to know since you can find info on most of the weapons from the RPG sources which should list that info.
DPS is not nor can it be equal on the professions. There are three generalareas for the combat professions.
Offense : Speed, accuracy, and damage
Defense : Status defenses and ranged/melee defense
Combat Multipliers : Status attacks, AoE attacks, and DoT's.
Riflemen are meant to have as their advantage Offense. They have some combat multipliers but their defenses are generally low. The one exception is ranged defense.
Pistoleers are suppose to have as their advantage Defense, mid level multipliers, and low offense.
Carbineers are high in Combat Multipliers, mid Offense, and low Defense.
Now they aren't all the way they are suppose to be. Pistoleer needs higher defenses and a small bump in their combat multipliers. They also need a tweaking to their delay mods in the specials. But not all the combat professions are suppose to be the same.
The issue is how the MOB's are put in. To make MOB's more difficult they increased their HAM, armor, and resists. This makes Offense the main requirement and it negates the advantages of those professions that rely on Defense or Combat Multipliers. Higher end MOB's don't use specials so those defensive types advantage doesn't come into play nor does the disadvantage of those that have low defenses. High end content is also immune to status effects. Which again negates those professions that rely on it for their advantage.
How do you fix MOB's? Well if we increased their melee/ranged defense so that someone would hit half as often wouldn't that be the same as doubleing their HAM? Yes. If MOB's used specials to do say a Dizzy/KD on players wouldn't this boost the use for those professions that have higher defenses? Yes. If MOB's had high resists/armor and were hard to hit but had low resists vs some status attacks wouldn't this make status effect professions more useful? Yes. If MOB HAM pools were more varied by type so that not all MOB's had fairly even pools wouldn't that help those professions that could target the weaker pool for a particular MOB type? Yes.
Each profession needs to have a role. Part of that role is going to depend on the MOB's being able to be effect most effectively by certain types and their ability to hit the weakness of certain others. Something that does not occur now.
Will this require a lot fo work? Yes. But in the long run will it be worth it? I think so. You wouldn't have to do it for all MOB's. Start with the high end ones and then work down to the mid level ones. You probably wouldn't have to do it for the low end which may make this idea more acceptable.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 07-26-2004 09:23 AM
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This is a fairly easy fix I would image. Instead of a Fambaa's HAM being 10000/9500/9750 they should vary it more. If the median is 10K, make the low end 7000, and the High End 13000. Translate that into percents at your leisure, but when you can choose to target a pool that's 6K different, and are randomly distributed, you get a much better breakup of combat abilities. And by varing baby HAM's and their full grown counterparts (after Taming) you just added a whole new content for CH's: Tame the best baby you can, try to get the Health higher than the Mind, etc etc.
Night4554 wrote:
This is a fairly easy fix I would image. Instead of a Fambaa's HAM being 10000/9500/9750 they should vary it more. If the median is 10K, make the low end 7000, and the High End 13000. Translate that into percents at your leisure, but when you can choose to target a pool that's 6K different, and are randomly distributed, you get a much better breakup of combat abilities. And by varing baby HAM's and their full grown counterparts (after Taming) you just added a whole new content for CH's: Tame the best baby you can, try to get the Health higher than the Mind, etc etc.
The way I was looking at it is this. You will still have some variance between individual members of a species. But you would also have one between types. Large elephant types like Thunes, Snorbls, etc would have say most in Health with the least in Action. Force wielders like NS and those on Dant would have most in Mind. Cat types would be mostly Action least in Health. Those are just some examples.
I came up with a possible 45/30/25 split. So your Fambaa example has a total of about 30k HAM. You would split that to 13500/9000/7500 in the appropriate pools. Then each Fambaa would have some variance between themselves. Say +/- 10-15% in each pool.
It would still end up adding some content for CH's since they could choose a species baby based on what stats they want most. If you want Health get a elephant type. Want Action get a cat type, etc.
Waste93 wrote:
Have to disagree. The weapon speed listed is not a mechanical limitation on the weapon. If you read about the T21 you will see that it fires at 1/sec at it's SLOWEST speed. The speed represents aim time. Which is why when someone progresses in a profession they attack faster. They are increasing their ability to aim and fire at a quicker rate. The ability to better hold the weapon on target.
According to the Canon sources, the Tenloss DX2Disruptor can't be used beyond 7m, but when within range it can blast through bulkheads and disintergrate human sized targets in one shot, surely if devs intended to make the T21 that fast because in the "real" Star Wars universe it is that fast, then surely the Tenloss DX2 Disruptor should have a min/max damage of several thousand within 7m. As for the weapon speed reflecting aim speed, I can't really fault you as that's the only conclusion that makes sense, but surely ALL masters of combat should be hitting the speedcap with all of their moves, and not just Riflemen, TKM and Fencers...
The technology in the weapons is going to be similar. It's just a difference in size really. Think of a semi auto pistol and a semi auto rifle. They have the same rate of fire because they use the same technology. Even blasters would follow this. So the mechanical limitation on fire rates would be practically the same for a pistol, rifle, or carbine.
Again this is true, and perfectly reasonable. Every single handheld blaster in Star Wars used the same technology more or less and would therefore have comparable speed. Disruptors had charge times that would cap their speed regardless of how long it takes you to aim and of course projectile weapons would only fire as fast as the feeding mechanism allows, Striker and Launcher pistols for example.
However the fire rates of these weapons are easy to know since you can find info on most of the weapons from the RPG sources which should list that info.
DPS is not nor can it be equal on the professions. There are three generalareas for the combat professions.
I agree that DPS should not be equal, but to make the hardest hitting but slowest gun faster than the lightest hitting fastest gun is wrong. They should end up the same speed at master.
Offense : Speed, accuracy, and damage
Speed and accuracy equal among all professions at master. All differences should reside within the weapon. That is balance.
Defense : Status defenses and ranged/melee defense
These should be given realistic values and reflect the true role of the profession, riflemen are built for long range combat therefore should have high range defence and a little state defencezero melee. Pistoleer mid-level state and melee but low range defence. Melee, high melee and state defence but zero ranged defence, they're not meant to fight ranged anyway.
Combat Multipliers : Status attacks, AoE attacks, and DoT's.
When combined with the defences, these also define the role of a profession. Riflemen are tactical long range troops and should be the only ones to target a specific pool, carbineers are front line gunners, so AoE everything and so on.
Riflemen are meant to have as their advantage Offense. They have some combat multipliers but their defenses are generally low. The one exception is ranged defense.
Offense is off the chart with +90 speed, +170 accuracy and my T21 (no loots) does 496 max damage with AP3, I have fired strafe2 for over 5k with this weapon no powerup. In addition to this they get AoE attacks, not cones but AoE, if it's on the screen it gets hit and they get just as many dots as any other marksman. They also have more ranged and melee defence than other marksmen.
Pistoleers are suppose to have as their advantage Defense, mid level multipliers, and low offense.
State defence works on a probability system and is therefore worthless, keep trying and we will fall down regardless of KD defence, dodge is our only reliable defence. We have less "combat multipliers" than riflemen, two cone attacks, one broken AoE, one knockdown, two bleeds and no posture changes, riflemen with "some" multipliers, 2 AoE, a dizzy, a stun,a posturechange and two bleeds. And our offense is not so much low, as non-existent when facing high end mobs.
Carbineers are high in Combat Multipliers, mid Offense, and low Defense.
Plenty of AoE and cone attacks, two bleeds, plenty of state and posture changes and a couple KD's, no argument, definitely high in combat multipliers. Mid offense, accuracy isn't bad at master but their speed is worse than pistoleer, they do not cap any of their moves with their stronger guns. Low defence, correct.
Now they aren't all the way they are suppose to be. Pistoleer needs higher defenses and a small bump in their combat multipliers. They also need a tweaking to their delay mods in the specials. But not all the combat professions are suppose to be the same.
To better reflect the claims you made riflemen have to take a decrease in defence and/or lose a combat multiplier or two, pistoleer needs working defences and a little more offense, not too much just enough to allow high end combat, carbineer needs his specials fixing (ham costs) a couple new guns (not energy or acid) and more speed. Speed capping pistoleers and carbineers at master without taking any BH will not upset riflemen's claim to power as DPS will be unneffected as long as the weapons remain the same, all else failing AP will keep everything in check.
The issue is how the MOB's are put in. To make MOB's more difficult they increased their HAM, armor, and resists. This makes Offense the main requirement and it negates the advantages of those professions that rely on Defense or Combat Multipliers. Higher end MOB's don't use specials so those defensive types advantage doesn't come into play nor does the disadvantage of those that have low defenses. High end content is also immune to status effects. Which again negates those professions that rely on it for their advantage.
How do you fix MOB's? Well if we increased their melee/ranged defense so that someone would hit half as often wouldn't that be the same as doubleing their HAM? Yes. If MOB's used specials to do say a Dizzy/KD on players wouldn't this boost the use for those professions that have higher defenses? Yes. If MOB's had high resists/armor and were hard to hit but had low resists vs some status attacks wouldn't this make status effect professions more useful? Yes. If MOB HAM pools were more varied by type so that not all MOB's had fairly even pools wouldn't that help those professions that could target the weaker pool for a particular MOB type? Yes.
The fixes you're suggesting for the mobs still don't fix the underlying problems with the pistoleer or carbineer classes. They both lack the offense to efficiently fight high end mobs, fencers are in the same position but have the defences required to stand there and get the job done eventually, pistoleers have no chance. To exclude a combat class from high end combat is wrong.
Each profession needs to have a role. Part of that role is going to depend on the MOB's being able to be effect most effectively by certain types and their ability to hit the weakness of certain others. Something that does not occur now.
This is something I would like to see soon, everyone having their own role in combat that is not simply driven by damage. But at the end of the day, there are only two classes for high end PvE, hitters and tankers. If you can't deal damage or take damage, you aren't going to be included in the hunting party.
Will this require a lot fo work? Yes. But in the long run will it be worth it? I think so. You wouldn't have to do it for all MOB's. Start with the high end ones and then work down to the mid level ones. You probably wouldn't have to do it for the low end which may make this idea more acceptable.
Although changing the mobs to allow for all combat professions to have a role would work, I think it would be much better to alter the professions themselves. I do find it strange that all riflemen think the combat balance should focus on the mobs again. The mobs have already been balanced once remember? It's our turn to be balanced, now sit down and prepare for nerf.
kinlarron wrote:well the practically was there because i like to hedge my bets
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