Pistoleer Archive

Thread: Discussion Thread: Dual Wielding Pistols

LordMaxx
Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:36 am
#1

Yes, great to see the poll thread bumped just about daily...but some of you are cheating signing more than once!

My question is when the developers do work on Dual wielding pistols, what should the mechanics behind it be? Im sure they already have some ideas of their own, but if we can come up with a very well balanced and professional design document they may take it into consideration.

It would be easy to say things like...well just cuts your speed in half...but that doesnt exactly evoke balance. This ability should upgrade your combat abilities, but there must also be costs...

Im assuming most of the community will want it to be a Master Pistoleer skill which is fine by me...but discuss that also if you have differing opinions.

Some of the optional Pros and Cons to dual wielding could be this:
Speed Bonuses
Damage Bonuses
Accuracy Penalty
Movement Speed Penalty
Both Weapons must be same type
Both Weapons must have same Serial
Limited Specials Use
No Specials Use

And there could be many more...think of how you could take the above bonuses and penalties and make a balanced and fair pistoleer ability. Also Im sure there are other bonuses and penalties that could apply post those also if you think of them.



Maxx Wolfe
"I...I...I...I...Im not your steppin' stone!" - The Monkees
Leader of Team Desert Eagle and Founder of PATGWNIWNU a offshoot of RATGWNIWNU!
Chilastra/Valcyn/TC
Actairr
Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:50 am
#2

You would have double the ham cost for specials. I think same speed for weapon might make it easier to figure out how you can shoot the guns, but if you are speed cap'd that shuold not apply. Maybe you get an slight accuracy negative but nothing too big. Also maybe they would make it so using two pistols helps get around saber block, nothing too huge just slightly. I have two de-10s that are waiting for duel weild, both are over 600 damage, so I cant wait.
DoctorGriggs
Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:54 am
#3

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make this a master-level ability. If not, it will be used in every pistoleer-dabbler template and subject to nerf cries when it goes live.



Griggs - Undead Priest
Co-Leader of the Unholy Legion - Kalecgos

SolrFlare
Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:29 am
#4



OK. Looking at this from a real life perspective and from someone who has done some pistol shooting, if you are holding two guns in your hand, your accuracy and speed is going to go to pot(contrary to the movies). No way you are going to be able to aim good and the recoil of having two guns firing is going to make firing much slower.


But, keeping in mind this is a game based off a fantasy/sci-fi universe:


- Use the speed of the slowest weapon + 1as the speed for both guns

- Use the worst range mods from each weapon as the range mods for both weapons

- Add the ham costs

- Add the damage

- Allow players to mix and match weapon types

- If using an AP 0 weapon with an AP 1 weapon, AP 0 is then used for both weapons

- If using 2 different damage type guns, half the combined damage of both guns goes to one damage type, half to the other. So, say your total damage is 600 and you are firing energy and heat, then 300 would go to energy and 300 to heat.



Advantages: You get combined weapon damage, and the ability to fire two different damage types in one shot.


Negatives:Slower speed, potential range mod penalties(especially when mixing gun types), and increased ham costs.


And, you definitely need the speed of the slowest weapon + 1 to make sure there is always a penalty even if using two identical speed guns. And, you need always use the lowest AP in order to keep people from using dual wield to, say, bump a Geo pistol or FWG5 up to AP 1.


The above should keep is somewhat simpler from a programmers perspective too. Just do a compare for each mod, and depending on the mod type, you eitherjust add them, use the lowest value, or use the highest value as the total value for the weapon.


Edit: Note when I say speed of the slowest weapon + 1, that one second delay is added in outside of speed mod considerations. Its a set additional 1 second dual weild penalty. Thus, even if you are speed capped, the best you'll be able to do is fire once every 2 seconds.

Message Edited by SolrFlare on 10-15-2004 10:58 AM



------------
Solr_Flare

Server: Chilastra
Character: Solarius Kerash
Profession: Master Ranger/Pistoleer
DarthNkari
Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:04 am
#5

Heres an idea....


Thepistols fire one at a time, and alternate every shot. If you are not speed capped, the weapons use the appropriate speed/delay.


Allowing us to fire 2pistols at the exact same time would double our damage and thats a little too strong. But itcould allowus to alternate firethem for an increased speed in some way, possibly exceeding the speed cap in some small way.


Example -Firing at the speed cap, every 1.0 seconds- using ade-10and a geo pistol


1stshot - stopping shot - de-10

+1sec 2nd shot - stopping shot - geo

+1sec 3rd shot - stopping shot - de-10

+1sec 4th shot - bodyshot3 - geo

+1sec 5th shot - bodyshot3 - de10


That would be the base model. It doesn't give us any advantage except switching damage types every shot. No increased damage. But now, you drop the cap to .7 or .8 or .9 and apply it to the model above.


1stshot - stopping shot - de-10
+.8sec 2nd shot - stopping shot - geo

+.8sec 3rd shot - stopping shot - de-10

+.8sec 4th shot - bodyshot3 - geo

+.8sec 5th shot - bodyshot3 - de10


The overall effect is that you are not just shooting the pistols alternately......you are actually firing them at a rate that can only be achieved using two weapons. this addresses the pistoleers concern with the global speed cap, also increase pistoleer damage sligtly.




XBloodlossX
You don't know the Power of the Dark Side...
NNkariN
Wisky
Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:08 am
#6

solr had some nice ideas. But i dont think the devs are gonna allow 2 different types of guns. I think that is a bad idea becuse it allows us to use 2 types of damage and that will get out of hand. Also if i am holding an AP1 gun and an AP0 gun then the damage should be counted seperatly. But the dps should increase. I have also shot pistols. It is very very hard to be accurate with 2 guns in your hand. But if you are a master pistol where this ability should be granted then you should still be accurate with both equipt. Maybe add ranged mods together or something and average them. I like this idea but I think that there are other things in pistoleer that should be fixed. For instance why does smugglar have the most powerful special?
DarthNkari
Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:11 am
#7

yea the thing i put for #1 on the need list was a good special for pvp.


but....dual weild has been on the wish list since launch, and for them to even mention adding it...we better jump on it now before they can the idea =)



XBloodlossX
You don't know the Power of the Dark Side...
NNkariN
SolrFlare
Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:13 am
#8


Yeah, thats the other way we could go with it. Have each fire seperately and alternate between the two with a speed bonus on the special delay mod. Which might be more friendly for having different weapon types because only one gun would fire at any one time. It just would mean we wouldn't have to suffer time penalties for swtiching weapons like other professions do.


I prefer my way because it gives us two different tactical options. So that both single weild and dual weild have different advantages depending on the situation. The other way, dual weild is always better. I'd prefer dual weild to not necessarily always be best, and instead be an alternative that has certain advantages to it. But, either direction certainly can work.

Message Edited by SolrFlare on 10-15-2004 11:16 AM



------------
Solr_Flare

Server: Chilastra
Character: Solarius Kerash
Profession: Master Ranger/Pistoleer
DarthNkari
Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:37 am
#9

yup i see what youre sayin.


it would be good to have a single pistol better in some way at least...but at least i got the general idea out there


maybe just decrease accuracy by 20 or 30 or however much when dual weilding. so when you go up against someone you cant hit, you put away 1 pistol and naturally aim better


but of course there are many ways it could work =)



XBloodlossX
You don't know the Power of the Dark Side...
NNkariN
Jibbrish
Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:43 am
#10



  • Master only ability.

  • Add 2 duel weild specials:


    • Alternate shot - One gun then the other, with staggered delays. Reduces the time between shots, HAM drain is the same but hits you twice as often, Damage would be slightly more than regular shot but happen more often.

    • Duel Overcharge - Both shot at once, longer delay. HAM is from both guns, damage would be excessive.

  • Using 2 guns should affect accuracy more than anything, other negatives like HAM and speed would be calculated from each gun anyway and the effects don't need much more, if any, increase beyond that.

  • Using regular single shot specials uses both guns at the same timebut the speed is based on the slower of the 2, damage is calculated off each gun. Reduced accuracy and a reduced range would be the main negative, calculated seperately for each gun, along with the duel HAM costs.

Just thought of another issue:



  • Pistol whip (pistol melee something ...)will need to be modified or not work when duel wielding. If it's used twice i think it cancel out and i don't think it should just last twice as long. If it continues to work as it currently does, cool, but i'd be worried that it may end up buggered if it's not considered when this is done.

Message Edited by Jibbrish on 10-15-2004 01:15 PM



~ERAMBACCA~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ELOISE~
CARBINEER, MEDIC, RESOURCES~~~~~~~MASTER SMUGGLER, GENERAL BADAZZ
CAPTAIN, REBELLION ARMY~~~~~~~~~~~~~COLONEL, REBELLION ARMY
~~~~BANTHA FE, TATOOINE, TEMPEST~~~~

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Rockhurst
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:53 am
#11





LordMaxx wrote:


Im assuming most of the community will want it to be a Master Pistoleer skill which is fine by me...but discuss that also if you have differing opinions.

Some of the optional Pros and Cons to dual wielding could be this:
Speed Bonuses
Damage Bonuses
Accuracy Penalty
Movement Speed Penalty
Both Weapons must be same type
Both Weapons must have same Serial
Limited Specials Use
No Specials Use




Again, this is tough to discuss not knowing how damage, speed, etc. will change with the revamp, but I'll try.


My "vision" of dual wieldingis that it would be the pistoleer's answer to the up-close melee-range situations. A pistoleer can sit back a ways with one pistol equipped applying status effect specials with one pistol, then move in and pull out a second pistol to extract high damage.


Where to put it; Master?
Check out <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=57912&page=1
">THIS</a> thread. Ilike this idea that would pull in more professions into the implementation of Dual Wielding. Saying "only put dual wielding at master pistoleer" seems like a cop-out. Shouldn't even a novice pistoleer be able to dual wield cdef's?


Speed Bonuses
Yes, you could give a speed bonus to dual wielding, but that "bonus" becomes a mute point for all those that are capped with BH pistol. In addition, it takes dual wielding and makes it more of a skill tape than a stratgic decision. One speed related comment though. Equipping the second pistol from one should be only half the weapon switch delay that moving from pistol to carbine would be.


Damage Bonuses
This, of course, is an obvious. If you're shooting twoof the same weapon you should hit for twice as much damage.


Accuracy Penalty
To me, this one is equally obvious. If you're trying to shoot two of the same weapon your accuracy should go down. Perhaps a multiplier that reduces accuracy exponentially when outside of the ideal range.


Movement Speed Penalty
Weapon weight should be implemented across the board. A Commando with a FT should never move as fast as a TKM. Each weapon should have an inate "weight" stat (slicable by Smugglers) that adjust the players movement speed. If a pistoleer is using a cdef, he/she should be able to move as fast as a TKM. However if a pistoleer switches to dual DE-10's, he/she should move at a much slower rate.


Both weapons of same type
When I started to respond to this point, I was against it. Now, I'm in the middle. One time I can see it being advantagious to use different weapons would be to apply two different DoT weapons.


Both weapons have same serial
With the way DE-10's are currently crafted, wouldn't this disallow pistoleers from dual wielding DE-10's? And, that's probably the one weapon pistoleers most want to dual wield...you may never hear me say this again, but even I say "dual de-10's...now that just looks cool". I can see how it would be easier to implement dual wielding as one weapon that takes up both hands, but I'd much rather be able to use my existing weapons and buying an additional matching weapon. Weaponsmiths would benefit from selling a pistoleer two weapons instead of one as well.


Limited Special Use
I absolutely agree. With my "vision" at the top, dual wielding is a close-quarters combat solution. Single or random HAM bar specials & multitarget attack should be possible, but no state attacks. Just using these as examples, but Bodyshot3dual wielded from close rangeshould bemore powerful than stopping shot with one pistol.Keep in mind that pistol specials in other professions (smuggler, BH, & possibly Commando if they get them) need to be included in this as well.


No Special Use
From my above response I'm sure you can guess that I don't like this. Without the ability to do at least some specials, our ability to do damage dual wielding is worse than with one. Dual wielding DE-10's at close range should be the ultimate close range non-commando non-melee attack.




Master Bounty Hunter / Master Pistoleer
--Force Enhanced--
Rockhurst
Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:56 am
#12

Ahh...stupid graphical editor...here's the clicky



Master Bounty Hunter / Master Pistoleer
--Force Enhanced--
Dharma812
Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:10 am
#13






SolrFlare wrote:



OK. Looking at this from a real life perspective and from someone who has done some pistol shooting, if you are holding two guns in your hand, your accuracy and speed is going to go to pot(contrary to the movies). No way you are going to be able to aim good and the recoil of having two guns firing is going to make firing much slower.


But, keeping in mind this is a game based off a fantasy/sci-fi universe:





Only one comment here.


As with most RL v IG arguments, It is impossible to make comparisons. While I agree that given the RL physics of combustion based projectile weapons the accuracy and speed drop associated with "kick" is significant. However,no one here hashas ever fired an energy based weapon like the ones we use and cannot really make acurate determinations as to how those weapons might behave.


As a result, I think that dicussions about dual weild should be limited to balance issues as opposed to what one might realisticly assume would be the result of such a skill or action.



btw, I know this was a preface to your outline, I just wanted to plug my feeling that balance should always be a greater concern than realism.

Message Edited by Dharma812 on 10-15-2004 02:15 PM



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1. Superman's only weakness is Kryptonite. Jack Bauer laughs at Superman for having a weakness.
2. When Jack Bauer goes to the airport and the metal detector doesn't go off, security gives him a gun.
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