Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistoleer State of the Profession Report (11/6/03)
Pistoleer State of the Profession Report (11/6/03)
***OVERVIEW***
It is difficult to give a "State of the Profession" report for Pistoleer because there's not much of a Pistoleer profession, at this point.
- Almost all of our specials are broken or useless,
- our pistol (DX2) is worse than Marksman pistols and is not used by most players,
- we are not fast enough with our weapon at the master level,
- and our defenses don't work.
As a result, our profession simply doesn't bring much to the table besides being a "Dabblers Delight" for other professions who want more Pistol Speed or Pistol Accuracy modifiers. If I could use one word to describe the Pistoleer profession, it would be BROKEN.
“Almost all of our specials are broken or useless”
Both of our Master specials -- Disarming Shot 2 and Multi Target Pistol Shot -- do nothing at the moment. BodyShot3 is worse than BodyShot2 from Marksman. All the rest of our specials are random HAM attacks that have a lower damage-per-second output than Marksman specials, don't have any state effects, and do not target a specific HAM pool (and thus, as "random HAM" attacks, hit health 55% of the time, based on our tests). We've reported these broken specials months ago. Back in August, we also reported that our defenses (like Dodge) weren't working. A month later, we reported that the Pistoleer pistol (DX2) is inferior to the pistols we get in Marksman. The result? One fix to one special (FanShot) that has now been reversed on TestCenter. A nerf on TestCenter to a Marksman pistol (FWG5) that we rely upon because our Pistoleer pistol (DX2) is a piece of junk. And NO fixes to all the bugs and broken specials/weapon/defenses in our profession. It's no wonder that our forum is full of folks who are fed up, waiting for fixes that never seem to come.
“our pistol (DX2) is worse than Marksman pistols and is not used by most players”
As mentioned above, the only pistol certification on the Pistoleer tree (the DX2 Pistol) is inferior to the pistols we can use as Marksman, which is why the vast majority of Pistoleers use FWG5 Pistols or Scout Blasters. The DX2 is by FAR the least accurate pistol in the game, it requires FIVE looted components to upgrade (the FWG5 Pistol, Scatter Pistol, Scout Blaster, and Launcher Pistol all require only ONE for the same effect), the resources it requires are far too rare, and the armor piercing is bugged. Please fix the DX2 – it’s the Pistoleer pistol and should be better than what we get in Marksman.
“we are not fast enough with our weapon at the master level”
Pistols are supposed to be the fastest weapons in the game. Unfortunately that isn’t the case, for two reasons. First, the speed equation is completely screwed up at higher levels, permitting a Master Rifleman to fire a T21 Rifle as fast as a Master Pistoleer can fire a FWG5 Pistol (see Gameplay Issue #2, below, for a detailed analysis).
Even putting that problem aside, a Master Pistoleer doesn’t get as much speed modifiers as other professions. Because a Master Pistoleer only has +74 Pistol Speed, we cannot take full advantage of our lineup of special attacks. A Bounty Hunter taking his own pistol line has +80 Pistol Speed. A Master Rifleman has +90 Rifle Speed. A Teras Kasi Master has +115 Unarmed Speed. A Master Fencer has +90 One Handed Speed. Why is a master of the “fastest” ranged elite profession one of the slowest?
We recommend that you add another 16 points of speed to this profession, 11 spread throughout the tree with 5 points added to the Master box. In addition to giving us specials that actually work, added Pistol Speed would allow Pistoleers to get some value out of their special attacks at a low level, instead of relying on Marksman special attacks until they hit Master.
“our defenses don’t work”
Currently, on the Live Servers, our defenses are broken and have been broken since release. Although the modifiers have been increased on TestCenter, I don't have Correspondent access on TestCenter and you want me to write this report ASAP, so I’m reporting what is happening on Live Servers right now.
On Live Servers, the Dodge skill simply doesn’t work. Repeated tests show that a Master Pistoleer dodges only 1.5 PERCENT of attacks from enemies with only Marksman accuracy skills. Also, the Dodge animation actually brings us to a stop, which means that most Pistoleers don’t even WANT to Dodge because it helps our enemies catch up to us. Get rid of that animation.
The “Defense v. ___” defenses aren’t much better, and there is a major problem with the way that they are implemented right now. Current state effect defense (Defense v. Blind, Defense v. Stun, etc) seems to be a chance to resist the effect at its application (when you are hit with it). Let's use Defense v. Blind as an example. As a Master Pistoleer, on Live servers I have 20% Defense v. Blind. The problem is that the enemy will just spam Eyeshot (blind state effect) against you, and once one of them hits, you're blind for a long time. A better way to implement them would be for them to also reduce the LENGTH OF TIME that the state effect is active.
“Dabblers Delight”
At this point the only use of Pistoleer is as a supplement to OTHER professions -- Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Commando -- that DO have useful pistol specials and certifications. Those folks are taking bits and pieces of Pistoleer in order to get speed and accuracy boosts to the non-Pistoleer pistol skills and pistol certifications they have that DO work. So a Smuggler can take the Marksmanship line and get a accuracy boost to his own specials, or a Bounty Hunter can take Stances 2 and max out his Pistol speed. That's the reason we're seeing a huge number of "Novice Pistoleers" but so few Master Pistoleers. While other professions are dabbling in Pistoleer for some speed and accuracy to use with the WORKING pistol skills and pistol certifications they receive from OTHER professions, the average Joe Pistoleer is excited about getting his next box of Pistoleer ... until he realizes that, yet again, the skills he obtains from that box are broken or useless.
As Pistoleers, we just want our profession to WORK -- we want all of the broken specials, weapon, defenses, etc. to be fixed so the profession is fun and worthwhile for the average Joe Pistoleer. We're all paying our $15 a month, and we deserve to have our profession work and be fun to play. Right now our profession is in a pre-beta broken stage, and we think that fixes to bugs and broken specials should take precedence over global balance issues. As our specials and skills are fixed, we support the movement of specials and modifiers throughout our tree (as you have proposed with Creature Handler) so all of the useful modifiers/skills/specials cannot be obtained just by taking a single line. Right now the only two working pistol specials, HealthShot2 and Pistol Melee Defense 1, are obtained at Novice Pistoleer and Stances 1, respectively. All of our speed modifiers can be obtained via one line (Stances).
In short, once again we are presenting all of our broken/useless specials, skills, and weapons in this status report. Please fix our profession as soon as possible.
CONTINUED ON NEXT POST
***BUGS***
1) DISARMING SHOT 1 AND DISARMING SHOT 2 DON'T WORK (Reported in AUGUST): These specials do not “disarm” an opponent or do ANYTHING else and are useless in their current forms (the descriptions do not match the special effect). DisarmingShot1 has no special effect -- it just does random HAM damage. Actually, it does LESS DAMAGE THAN THE DEFAULT AUTO ATTACK (when you don’t use a special attack), due to the delay. DisarmingShot2 (Master Pistoleer special) used to be an AOE Knockdown, but now it just does more damage to the person using it (in HAM costs) than it does to the enemy. Please add something useful to these specials, because they are unique signature specials of Pistoleers. In the past we've made a number of suggestions, including making DisarmingShot a ranged Intimidate, making it an ability similar to Panic Shot, or making it "disarm" an opponent by preventing him from equipping any weapon for a certain number of seconds, with a timer. Even hitting the Action bar for a decent amount of damage (say, 2.0 and 3.5 modifiers), at this point, would be worthwhile given that all of our specials tend to hit the Health bar. From our perspective, ANYTHING that is actually useful, at this point, would be welcome. One idea we'd like to take off the table -- Pistoleers are uniformly against the idea of damaging the condition of an opponent's weapon, because we are not interested in griefing other players. Please give us something that helps us kill the enemy, not grief him by destroying his expensive gun.
2) BODYSHOT 3 IS WORSE THAN BODYSHOT 2 (Reported in AUGUST): BodyShot3 (Pistoleer Grips 3) is outperformed by BodyShot2 (Marksman), and has been worse than BodyShot2 since release! We reported this in our first month's report, and it's still not fixed. Since BodyShot3 is the ONLY targeted HAM special in the entire Pistoleer tree, it should be significantly more effective than the special we get in Marksman. Just in case you don't believe us, multiple tests all showed the same results: (+74 pistol speed, 4.0 speed, 17-35 damage CDEF on unarmored, same opponent:
Body Shot 2 = 80.4 avg dmg per shot 1.8s avg delay = 43.8 dmg per second (Marksman skill)
Body Shot 3 = 97.8 avg dmg per shot 2.5s avg delay = 39.0 dmg per second (Pistoleer Grips 3)
We need BodyShot3 to be effective, given that it's our only targeted damage shot. A 3.5x damage modifier, a reduced delay modifier, a state effect added to it, ANYTHING to make it effective for a Pistoleer. As it currently stands, it’s basically useless, and it’s one of our hallmark special attacks.
3) THE DX2 (PISTOLEER-ONLY) PISTOL IS WORSE THAN PISTOL CERTIFICATIONS OBTAINED IN THE MARKSMAN TREE (Reported in SEPTEMBER): The DX2 is supposed to be the "elite" Pistoleer pistol -- it is the only pistol certification on the Pistoleer tree. Nonetheless the vast majority of Pistoleers use FWG5 Pistols or Scout Blasters, and our forum is filled with posts saying "the DX2 sucks" or "when is the DX2 going to be fixed." There are several reasons why. First of all, the DX2 is by FAR the least accurate pistol in the game. Its accuracy is set to ideal at point blank. Please make this similar to the FWG5 Pistol or Scout Blaster in accuracy so that it can be better than the Marksman pistols. Secondly, the DX2 requires FOUR identical power handlers, so it is very difficult to upgrade with looted components. While the FWG5 Pistol or the Scatter Pistol or the Scout Blaster or the Launcher Pistol all require ONE Krayt tissue to upgrade, the DX2 requires FIVE for the same benefit. Give the DX2 one power handler, like the other pistols. Third, the resources seem far too rare for this weapon -- this is the same problem that the other "elite" weapons (the Elite Carbine and the DX2 Rifle) face. We need this pistol to be craftable by Master Weaponsmiths in such a way that makes it have stats far better than we see on most servers, even now in the game, so Pistoleers can use the DX2 instead of Marksman pistols like the FWG5 or Scout Blaster. Also, the armor piercing doesn't work on the DX2 for any opponent that has a vulnerability to acid -- this is a global bug that affects the DX2. The bottom line is that the DX2 is THE PISTOLEER PISTOL and should be, at the very least, better than anything we can get in the Marksman tree. Please fix the DX2.
4) MULTI TARGET PISTOL SHOT IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): Multi Target Pistol Shot, one of our Master Pistoleer specials, works only sporadically and even then is ineffective. I can't get the special to fire most of time when I've tried to test it, and even when it "works" it is worse than just firing by using the TAB key to move to the next target. As a Master Pistoleer special, it should provide a significant benefit -- right now it rarely works and isn't worth using when it does. Just make this into an AOE attack (since we know that the AOE code actually works) that targets the Health pool, and add a bleed/DoT or state effect. If that isn’t possible, make it a high damage AOE random HAM attack with a useful state effect (knockdown, blind, etc). Maybe even the “attack everyone within 32m” idea that the Combat Dev mentioned would suffice, as long as the code actually worked so we could hit everyone instantaneously. As a Master Pistoleer special, MTPS should be worth using and provide an incentive to climb up the tree instead of just dabbling at the bottom. Pistoleer specials are in general redundant, vanilla, and are seriously lacking without any ranged state effects, ranged knockdown, etc. One way to improve them is to have effective AOE attacks that work, such as MTPS.
5) PISTOL MELEE DEFENSE 2 DOESN'T WORK (Reported in SEPTEMBER): This special currently does nothing -- it doesn't knock down the target, cause a state effect, or do anything else worthwhile ... yet it has a HIGHER HAM cost than Pistol Melee Defense 1, which is a melee knockdown. Right now it causes as much damage to the Pistoleer using the attack as it does to the enemy and is never worth using, as a MELEE range random HAM attack with high HAM cost. Please add the dizzy state effect to this special, so it's worth using as a combo with Melee Defense 1, and lower the HAM cost to be in line with the other pistol specials. Right now this special is totally broken.
6) FANSHOT IS BROKEN ON TESTCENTER: Prior to the last patch, FanShot was yet another useless Pistoleer random HAM attack that had no state effect and spit out the same DPS as Marksman specials. In the last patch, an AOE effect was added to the special, which suddenly made it a useful and unique change-of-pace attack for Pistoleers. Now, on TestCenter, the AOE effect has been removed. Why? Is this a bug? I haven't gotten Correspondent access on TestCenter yet, and you've asked me to write this Report ASAP, so I'm not able to investigate further. If the removal of the AOE effect is intentional, do SOMETHING to FanShot to make it useful. Right now Pistoleer is full of vanilla random HAM attacks that have no state effects and spit out the same or worse damage-per-second as Marksman specials.
7) STOPPING SHOT IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): The description of Stopping Shot is that it stops or incapacitates an opponent in one hit. We get a lot of questions asking if it slows an opponent, if it has a % chance to incap, etc., but all it currently does is spit out random HAM damage with a long delay modifier (it's slow). As currently implemented, StoppingShot is worthless to the average Pistoleer. It does less damage per second than Double Tap (Techniques II Pistoleer), and less damage per second than Roll Shot and Kip Up Shot from Marksman! Actually, it even does less damage over time early on, when compared to Overcharge Shot 1, which you get at NOVICE Marksman! The only folks who find this attack useful are folks who have the BH Pistol line, because they can dabble in Pistoleer and use the borked speed equation (see Gameplay Issue #2, below) to fire this special at the one-second speed cap. Please lower the delay to make this attack better than the Marksman specials for the average Pistoleer -- as we climb our tree, we should get better abilities, not worse ones! Also please add a state effect (like Posture Down) so this special actually stops/slows the enemy, as its description states. Right now, like so many of our attacks, this is just a random HAM attack with no state effects ... which means Pistoleers are better off using BodyShot because at least BodyShot’s damage is hitting a single pool instead of being spread across three (only 55% of random HAM attacks hit health, on average, based on our tests).
8) POINT BLANK AREA 2 IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): It is only hitting one target and not multiple targets -- please fix the area of effect. Also, the damage should be increased to make up for this being a point blank attack -- right now it has a similar DPS to Marksman specials, even though it is not attained until Pistoleer Grips 4 and is limited to melee range. Point blank attacks are so limiting to fast moving ranged combat professions that they need to offer significant benefits in order to be worth the risk of using. Significantly increase the damage on this special, and consider making it an AOE Warning Shot, so it can be useful to a Pistoleer who is being aggroed by multiple creatures.
9) DOUBLE TAP IS WORSE THAN MARKSMAN SPECIALS (Reported in SEPTEMBER): This special, achieved at Pistoleer Techniques 2, is currently outperformed by the Marksman skills that any Pistoleer already has (Kip Up Shot, Roll Shot) in terms of pure DPS. We suggest a damage increase, or a drastic delay decrease so this can become the "quick attack" for low level Pistoleers. If there is something that could be done with this special attack to make it unique, that would also be welcome, since we have so many redundant special attacks that only do random HAM damage (and as you see, far less than they should).
10) POINT BLANK SINGLE 1 IS WORSE THAN MARKSMAN SPECIALS (Reported in SEPTEMBER): This special has the same damage-per-second as Marksman specials, yet is limited to melee range. This special ability offers no advantage to a Pistoleer that acquires it since they could use a non-range limited Marksman attack instead to deal out the same damage. Consider:
- increasing damage appropriately,
- decreasing the HAM cost for these specials,
- or adding a state effect to make it unique and worthwhile.
Please note that pistols are MOST effective at short range already, having a better chance to hit at short range is essentially overkill on accuracy, it needs something more than that to be useful.
11) HEALTHSHOT2 IS BUGGED (Reported in SEPTEMBER): Based on multiple tests (against other players), the wound levels for HealthShot2 are bugged. Each time that HealthShot2 hits an enemy, it has a chance of causing Strength or Constitution wounds. However, if the first HealthShot2 causes 58 Strength wounds, for example, the next HealthShot2 could cause the number of wounds to GO DOWN to, say, 43 or whatever. The wounds can actually DECREASE or increase with each subsequent hit, randomly. If this is supposed to be a way for Pistoleers to cause wounds, each shot should have a chance to cause Strength/Constitution wounds and they should add rather than fluctuate up and down (we think that is a bug). It’s obviously not functioning properly.
12) THE REPUBLIC BLASTER CERTIFICATION IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): Many players have the certification for this pistol, but others don't, and no one knows why. Even for players who have the certification, the certification is broken -- they get a "you are not certified" message and extremely reduced damage output when they attempt to use this pistol. Weaponsmiths can craft this weapon, so can you enable us to use it by fixing the certification? And please explain to us why some players have this certification and others don't? We'd like to see this certification somewhere in the Pistoleer tree, since the Republic Blaster is an AR1 pistol that is better than the broken DX2 that we have right now.
13) DODGE IS BROKEN ON LIVE SERVERS (Reported in AUGUST): The Dodge skill is currently broken on Live servers, and has been broken since release. This has been changed on TestCenter -- the modifier has increased -- but I don't have Correspondent access on TestCenter and you want me to write this report ASAP. On Live, it's very clear that Dodge isn't working:
Defender: Master Pistoleer (+30 DODGE)
Attacker: Master Marksman (no Pistoleer or BH skills) using a CDEF Pistol from 7m away
Number of attacks: 194 Number of dodges: THREE (1.5 PERCENT)
This skill is useless -- a Master Pistoleer is dodging only 1.5 percent of attacks versus someone with only Marksman pistol skills. Anyone at less than Master is dodging even LESS, if that's possible. We really need this defense to be useful for us. As a basis of comparison, the -Blind- state effect (from BH EyeShot, in this case) is far more effective:
Same attacker and defender
WITHOUT BLIND: Number of attacks: 194 Hit: 168 (86.6%)
WHEN THE ATTACKER WAS BLIND: Number of attacks: 203 Hit: 129 (63.5%)
Given that the -Blind- state effect made the attacker 2.72 TIMES more likely to miss the target (a 23.1 percent reduction, in this example), it's not unreasonable or unbalanced for a Master Pistoleer to dodge, say, 20 percent of attacks. Our profession has no armor piercing weapons, no state effects, no ranged knockdown, the lowest DPS -- the bottom line is that we need working defenses to make this profession worthwhile. Right now Dodge doesn't help us at all.
Unfortunately, there’s an even bigger problem with Dodge right now. Many Pistoleers don’t even WANT to dodge an attack because the dodge animation brings the Pistoleer to a halt. That means that dodging actually makes it easier for our enemies to catch us and prevents us from staying on the move, which is usually one of our advantages. Please remove the dodge animation and find some way of indicating that we have dodged an attack that doesn’t bring us to a stop.
CONTINUED ON NEXT POST
...and that's the way it is.
Please fix us up, Devs. We've tested all this out, we know what needs to be done, and we've repeatedly sent you the cribsheet detailing how to fix us. Whatdo we have to do to get this profession running properly? What is holding you back from enabling our profession to function as it was intended?
Great summary, Philosopher, and keep up the good fight!
Like Jaegen ones...
so won't be heard.
The way things work right now is simple : the more you scream for noerfs, the more you get something (beside nerfs that actually happen or just the lack of fixes to the said profession).
There are many examples but the most pertinent thing to add is the fact Holocron just replied "pisoleers are OK because they don't ask for much". All is said.
Phil,
That is an EXTRAORDINARY State of the Profession report. Very well written and concise. I agree with every point. I'm also impressed that you used very few profession v. profession comparisons.
/cheer
Philosopher ,I believe u have a golden tongue.... what a great way to lay it out. If the Devs paid as much attention, played the game maybe, and spent as much time on each profession as u do this one.... We would be set and seeing fixes.
This is not sarcasm... I know u pay moneyto pay this much attention, and I commend u.
..and Devs if u even look on these boards and see this.... I do not blame u, I am sure it is a difficult task catching up to the sales dept. - I am sure most of u said it was not ready but the guys with the money belts strong armed u..... all I can say is please remember Devs.... most of us that are MMORPG veterans do not speak enough on these boards... or at least most did not... we figured u had your hands fulll.
And that is when our silence let the Nerf Monkeys scream for changes, Thx for listening at least... we are the ones that let them appear to be the majority. I see it clear from your perspective... u once took a boat across a lake to reach another envisioned shore... only to be captivated by the ripples in the water forgetting your goal. Please boys, remember the shore u aimed for, and for our sakes start rowing for it.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
Advanced FWG5 Pistol; 50-193 Damage; 2.2 Speed; 11-36-18 HAM; AP: None
T21 Rifle; 118-333 Damage; 7.2 Speed; 40-33-75 HAM; AP: Heavy
The average newb looks at these two weapons and immediately thinks that the FWG Pistol must be better, doing a simple "damage per second" (DPS) calculation. The raw DPS results are as follows:
FWG5 Pistol: 55.23
T21 Rifle: 31.32
Using the incorrect DPS calculation made by most players in the game, pistol looks WAY better than carbine or rifle. Once you factor in armor piercing, that changes things. Let's say both of those weapons are being fired at an enemy with 50% Composite (AR1) armor, which is worse than what many players are using.
T21 Rifle: (AP Heavy): 25.84
FWG5 Pistol (AP None): 13.81
Suddenly the T21 looks a whole lot better, as it should. The pistol is better against unarmed opponents, but against an armored opponent the T21 is a whole lot better.
But armor piercing is just the tip of the iceberg. When the speed formula is taken into account, everything goes bezerk. Let's compare a Master Pistoleer (+74 Pistol Speed) firing BodyShot2 (Damage Modifier 2.0, Delay Modifier 1.8) to a Master Rifleman (+90 Rifle Speed) firing HeadShot2 (Damage 2.5, Delay 1.75) against the same enemy with 50% Composite armor, using the speed equation I mentioned above.
T21 Rifle: 156.6
FWG5 Pistol: 29.5
At the Master level, the speed equation kicks in and suddenly the Master Rifleman spits out 531 PERCENT more damage per second than the Master Pistoleer because he's able to fire a superslow T21 Rifle every 1.26 seconds. If the Rifleman also has Master Marksman (just +5 more speed!) he can fire the T21 Rifle EVERY SECOND, which brings the damage output up to 197.31.
I would like to add that a rifleman using a T21 can target an opponents mindpool with that damage output. Pistoleers are relegated to using Random HAM attacks, as themain targeted Pistoleer attack (bodyshot3) is a joke in PvP. I realize we alsohave a bleed that targets the healthpool as well, but it is a completely different special and does less "DoT" than a Torso shot Fire, which also doesnasty dps when spammed and causes major wounds.
Ifthebest specials available to usare random HAM, then our weapons should do more dps than other professions' weaponswhich possess targeted attacks.. especiallythe ones with the ability to target themindpool.
Excellent write-up Philosopher, thank you for representing us.