Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Stopping Shot Or Body Shot 3
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Kevie
Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:32 pm
#4
fanshot and healthshot2 are better than both
even at the speed cap, fanshot could still possibly outdamage it since it's a cone and shoots a lot of things at once
and healthshot2 deals a lot of health damage (more than any other pistol shot atm) just spam instead of using it for the bleed
even at the speed cap, fanshot could still possibly outdamage it since it's a cone and shoots a lot of things at once
and healthshot2 deals a lot of health damage (more than any other pistol shot atm) just spam instead of using it for the bleed
Uthyr
Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:03 pm
#5
daboarder89 wrote:
with a 250 dmg pistol how much would it do?
Although I tend to agree with Kevie, let me try to address your question... I am missing a couple of pieces of info to answer that question, namely the minimum damage of the pistol , the pistol speed, and your player pistol speed mod. Let's assume you have a 100-250 damage,2.5 speed pistol and are aMaster Pistoleer, for the sake of argument. With Body Shot 3, you will be dealing 420.7 damage per second. With Stopping Shot, you will be dealing 504.8 per second. Health Shot 2 will deal 637.7 per second. This is using number's from Rem's Weapon Damage Calculator. I don't think there are any serious pistoleers here who actually use Body Shot 3 for anything (wait until the CURB--that may change). These relative numbers will vary greatly depending on your actual stats (i.e., your mileage may vary). Stopping Shot becomes far more powerful once you are speed capped, but it is a random-pool attack.
For the record, until now I have frequently argued in this forum that Health Shot 2 is the most effective special available to a pistoleer. After recent testing,I am not entirely convinced that this is true. Further testing continues, and I refrain from further comment on this matter until I have decided...
RenKesson
Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:52 am
#6
Stopping Shot is far better than BodyShot3. The question you should be asking is "Stopping Shot or Health Shot 2?"
The answer to this question is much more difficult to answer if you're speed capped, as Uthyr said. If you aren't speed capped, Health Shot 2 is your best bet, but if you've got those Bounty Pistol skill boxes, here are some theoretical numbers to ponder....
With a 100-250 dmg, 2.5 spd pistol, Stopping Shot's DPS is 1312.5.
With a 100-250 dmg, 2.5 spd pistol, Health Shot 2's DPS is 787.5.
Every "random pool" special has a pre-determined chance of hitting the Health, Action, and Mind pools. ALL random pool attacks have a much higher chance of hitting Health than any other stat. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that Stopping Shot has a 60% chance of hitting Health.
If that's the case, then you can theoretically infer that only 60% of Stopping Shot's damage will target Health, while the remaining 40% will be spread between Action and Mind pools (30%, 10% respectively, I believe.) In that case:
Stopping Shot's DPS to Health = 1312.5 * 0.60 = 787.5 DPS
Does that sound familiar? Unless my formula is wrong, the theoretical DPS to Health for Stopping Shot is the same as the DPS from Health Shot 2. So, are they essentially the same in terms of damage output over the course of a drawn-out battle?
Just some numbers to ponder.
Uthyr
Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:04 pm
#7
Excellent post, Ren, I always love a post that explains things with solid numbers to back it up. You may recall that I posted a couple of similar arguments not long ago on a very similar topic (click here and here to refer to them if you feel like pondering the numbers). I never did like using the term "random pool" attack when referring to specials like Stopping Shot, because as you pointed out, they are not random at all. Maybe "unfocused" is a better word.
Now that I've made what I had thought to be solid theoretical arguments against Stopping Shot, compared with more focused specials like Health Shot 2 and Torso Shot, I went out the other day and did some field testing shooting banthas. My hypothesis (which I was certain was going to hold true) was that spamming Torso Shot (which puts out roughly the same damage, not counting the DoT, as Health Shot 2 for a speed-capped pistoleer) would take down banthas much faster than spamming Stopping Shot. Much to my surprise, I found that this may not be true at all. Although I didn't actually keep a tally of the number of shots required to kill a target using each special (though I think I may do this next), I was very often able to take down a bantha, using my un-PUP'd Modified Republic Blaster, in 3 shots using Stopping Shot. I was never able to take one down in 3 shots using Torso Shot (seems like it always took at least 5 or 6 shots using the latter). The DoT's don't really matter for killing mobs as relatively weak as banthas, because they're dead long before the DoT ticking does much damage, so there's not much point wasting low-damage bleed specials as the opening salvo.
Based on these results, I now have a new strategy for shootings mobs of this level: (1) shoot 3 Stopping Shots, (2) if the mob is still alive, note which HAM pool is lowest, then (3) switch to either Torso Shot (or Health Shot if I wasn't a bounty hunter)or Eye Shot, if Health or Mind, respectively, are especially low. If Mind was low and I wasn't a bounty hunter, I'd continue spamming Stopping Shot. If no pool is disproportionately low (or if Action is the low pool at this point), then just continue spamming Stopping Shot.
I think it may be an entirely different story though shooting mobs that have muchstronger HAMs. In this case, DoT's become important, and I'd probably rely a lot more heavily on spamming Torso Shot (or Health Shot), and would in that case fire my bleeds/fire macro before I started trying to focus on a particular special.
Message Edited by Uthyr on 01-18-2005 05:09 PM
RenKesson
Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:04 pm
#8
Sounds like a "strategy" I used before this whole Stopping Shot vs. HS2 craze picked up way back when. It's good to hear that it still may be viable today. I will go out and see what happens with it in my experience. Thanks again Uthyr; you're a good guy to have around this forum.
Darth-Kevlar
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:12 am
#9
On one of my burn out periods of SWG i made a serious test, with records of 1000 stopping shots. I reached the conclusion that about 64% of those shots went to health(the exact number was 637/1000). Since then I'm a strong defender of stopping shot vs Healthshot2 unless the target can't be terminated fast (lets say20 seconds). In that situation the dots from a well placed combination of healthshot1 followed by sucessive healthshot2 bypasses the raw damage output of continued use of stoppingshot.
In pvp, stopping shot withhigh dmg pistols proves to be more devastating then HS2 even in long term engagements.
Uthyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:26 am
#10
RenKesson wrote:
Thanks again Uthyr; you're a good guy to have around this forum.
Anytime.... and thanks for the kind comment 
Uthyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:36 am
#11
Darth-Kevlar wrote:
On one of my burn out periods of SWG i made a serious test, with records of 1000 stopping shots. I reached the conclusion that about 64% of those shots went to health(the exact number was 637/1000). Since then I'm a strong defender of stopping shot vs Healthshot2 unless the target can't be terminated fast (lets say20 seconds). In that situation the dots from a well placed combination of healthshot1 followed by sucessive healthshot2 bypasses the raw damage output of continued use of stoppingshot.
In pvp, stopping shot withhigh dmg pistols proves to be more devastating then HS2 even in long term engagements.
Ah, excellent, I see you've already done the hard numbers experiment that I was going to run, so I won't bother. Your results are very interesting, and seem to go along with my anecdotal observations. The "generally accepted" ratio that I have read before on this forum for Stopping Shot is 3:2:1 (H:A:M), and that's what I based my whole earlier theoretical argument upon, so now I am a bit less confused as to my recent field test results. Your results suggest that the health ratio may be considerably higher (maybe more like 4:2:1). Do you recall what numbers you got for Action and Mind?
Anyway, this is all making me a convert to Stopping Shot for low/medium-HAM targets, but I completely agree with you that bleeding specials would be relatively more important for high-HAM (or high resistance)targets.
Darth-Kevlar
Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:58 am
#12
from the 363 that didn't went to health, 224 affected action, 139 ended in mind
Uthyr
Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:34 am
#13
So the ratio is closer to 6:2:1 then, Darth-Kevlar. Very interesting. Okay, I'm revising the mathematical discussion I posted earlier then (referring to the second of the two links I posted above),using your results. Here's how it should read now:
Here's an example using Rem's SWG Damage Calculator... with my powered-up DE-10 pistol, I fire 7 HealthShot2 rounds at a mob that has 10000 HAM for each of its three pools... All7 shots will hit Health, for a total damage of11325 (taking all of7 seconds to fire since I am speed capped). Granted there will be a little spillage into the other pools, but the target is dead nonetheless (assuming no armor or special protection for ease of calculations, but the principle is the same for armored opponents). Firing the same weapon using Stopping Shot, let's say4 of them hit Health,2 hit Action, and1 hits Mind. The heaviest-hit pool (Health in this example) takes10785 damage. Target is dead in either case [but is dead a bit sooner using Health Shot 2].
It still seems like Health Shot 2 should have the edge here, both because of the marginally higher total damage to Health, and because of the bleed. Let me try again using higher numbers of shots (and a more resistant target), to get a better average over a longer period of time (and with less rounding error):
Here's an example using Rem's SWG Damage Calculator... with my powered-up DE-10 pistol, I fire100 HealthShot2 rounds at a mob that has170000 HAM for each of its three pools... All100 shots will hit Health, for a total damage of161786 (taking all of100 seconds to fire since I am speed capped). Granted there will be a little spillage into the other pools, but the target is still alive nonetheless (assuming no armor or special protection for ease of calculations, but the principle is the same for armored opponents). Firing the same weapon using Stopping Shot, let's say64 of them hit Health,22 hit Action, and14 hit Mind. The heaviest-hit pool (Health in this example) takes172565 damage. Target is dead.
Of course, in the latter example you need to factor in HS2's bleed, which can be quite significant over a 100-second span. I don't know the numbers for HS2's bleed ticks per minute, but I'd be willing to bet that they make up for the apparent advantage that Stopping Shot would have here, and the mob would probably be dead using either special. If you throw in other bleed/fire specials in place of some of the health shots, the DoT ticks would be higher still, and the mob would almost certainly be dead.
So now it seems like a toss-up here. The bottom line, I suppose: use whichever special seems to work best for your speed mods and the type of mobs you like to hunt!
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