Pistoleer Archive

Although most of us know that all of our special attacks suck or are broken, we haven't focused enough on what I think is the #1 issue facing pistoleers -- the bugged way that speed is handled in the game. We use weapons that don't hit for much damage and don't have any armor piercing at all (DX2 armor piercing is broken). Compared to T21s and the new heavy weapons, we're bringing a pea shooter to a nuclear war. The ONE advantage our weapons are supposed to have is speed, right? Well we lose that advantage based on the way the game works.

All of you have heard other professions say that "pistoleer has the highest DPS (damage per second)" or that "rifle/carbine/whatever has the lowest DPS." Below I go through the data so you guys have hard evidence to point to. Pistoleer is in last place BY FAR in terms of damage per second. So everyone start referring others to this post, or send a link to Holo. This problem is just as important as our broken/crappy specials. Ok, so here's the analysis:

First of all, I used the following formulas to make my calculations.

PISTOL SPEED

For pistol speed, I used the speed formula that Jaegen discovered and tested. I have tested it myself and it is correct. I based my calculations on a "normal" attack ... things get even worse for pistoleers when you take special attacks into account, but I didn't have the time/energy to do that.

If you haven't seen the formula, here it is:

(WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
And if result < 1.0s , result = 1.0s

For a full explanation, see Jaegen's FAQ:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=7716

ARMOR PIERCING

Contrary to popular belief, armor piercing adds major damage to your weapon even if the other guy doesn't have armor on. I used the armor piercing formula provided by the Devs at this link:

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Advanced%20Guide%20Armor%20Fundamentals

WEAPONS

I used the following weapon data in my formulas. All of these weapons are from my server, and are unsliced. All were crafted by a Master Weaponsmith. I own most of them, although the T21 is a friend's weapon and the commando weapons are from a recent advertisement from a weaponsmith. I know there are more Commando weapons but they're not common on our server yet.

I'm sure some of your weapons are different -- maybe T21s aren't abundant on your server (they are on mine) or you have a cooler carbine or a worse pistol or whatever. If so, just run the calculations yourself (formulas are above) and post the results below.

Please notice that I did not use a DX2 for pistol. That's because the armor piercing is bugged on the DX2 (doesn't work) and the poor accuracy outside of point blank range make it a pretty crappy weapon. The FWG5 and Scout Blaster are far more commonly used. Similarly I didn't use the Elite Carbine because I (and most other carbine folks) use Laser Carbines, at least on my server. The T21 is by far the most popular rifle on my server, however.

Here is the data (min-max damage, speed, weapon name, armor piercing rating):

40-168 2.2 FWG5 (AR0)
93-144 2.4 Scatter Pistol (AR1)
40-264 3.7 Laser Carbine (AR2)
171-462 8.8 T21 Rifle (AR3)
381-707 4.6 Light Lightning Cannon (AR1)
415-787 5.0 Flamethrower (AR0)
306-701 5.3 Heavy Acid Rifle (AR0)
1206-3532 7.9 Rocket Launcher (AR3)
1993-3345 4.4 Heavy Particle Beam Cannon (AR3)

The first calculation I did was to look at the pure DPS (damage per second) without considering armor piercing or profession speed modifiers. This is the same calculation that everyone makes when they're purchasing a weapon, and it's extremely deceptive and incomplete. It doesn't accurately reflect DPS, even if the person using the weapon is a Novice Marksman shooting a foe without armor. Here are the results:

DPS WITHOUT ARMOR PIERCING OR PROFESSION SPEED MODIFIERS:

606.59 Commando (Heavy Particle Beam Cannon)
299.87 Commando (Rocket Launcher)
120.20 Commando (Flamethrower)
118.26 Bounty Hunter (LLC)
95.00 Commando (Heavy Acid Rifle)
49.38 Bounty Hunter (Scatter Pistol)
47.27 Pistoleer (FWG5)
41.08 Carbineer (Laser Carbine)
35.96 Rifleman (T21 Rifle)

What do we notice from this data? Well the first obvious thing is that the new LLC and Commando weapons are out of whack, although in some cases the Commando weapons are limited by charges. I'm not interested in those, because they just got introduced yesterday and haven't been nerfed or balanced yet.

But look at pistol, carbine, and rifle. Using the incorrect DPS calculation made by most players in the game, pistol looks WAY better than carbine or rifle. That's why a rifleman isn't LYING when he says that "pistol has way better DPS than rifle" ... based on these numbers, a FWG5 shoots out 31.5 percent more damage per second than a T21. The problem is that this calculation is completely incorrect because it leaves out two very important factors: (1) armor piercing and (2) profession speed modifiers.

So let's take a look at armor piercing and re-run the numbers. As I said before, armor piercing adds to your damage even if the other guy has no armor. If you shoot a player/mob that has no armor with an AR3 weapon, the damage is multiplied by 1.25, then multipled again by 1.25, and then multiplied a third time by 1.25. The difference is even more noticable when the enemy has armor -- when that happens, a weapon with no armor piercing or low armor piercing gets a 50% reduction, which is double the bonus given to armor piercing weapons against enemies without armor.

So pistols and other AR0 weapons come out worst against foes with armor. Against heavy armor, an FWG5 or Scout only does 12.5% of its original damage. But to keep things simple, I ran the numbers against targets without armor -- which is the majority of players in PvP. Here are the results:

DPS WITH ARMOR PIERCING (AGAINST UNARMORED TARGET):

1184.75 Commando (Heavy Particle Beam Cannon)
585.69 Commando (Rocket Launcher)
147.83 Bounty Hunter (Light Lightning Cannon)
120.20 Commando (Flamethrower)
95.00 Commando (Heavy Acid Rifle)
70.25 Rifleman (T21)
64.19 Carbineer (Laser Carbine)
61.72 Bounty Hunter (Scatter Pistol)
47.27 Pistoleer (FWG5)

Immediately, pistol drops to the bottom of the pile, and the T21 climbs to the top. And notice that some of the Commando weapons (and LLC) become even more deadly.

Once again, putting Commando and LLC to the side, it's obvious that pistol is at the bottom of the heap, by a lot. The carbine spit outs 35.8% more damage per second than the pistol even if both players have +0 to their Pistol/Carbine speed. The rifle enjoys a 48.61 percent advantage.

This advantage would drop a lot if the FWG5 were an AR1 weapon -- it would now spit out 59.09 damage per second. This still places pistol at the bottom, but it closes the gap a lot. For this reason, getting AR1 to the FWG5 and Scout or fixing the DX2 is an important change needed for pistoleers. We also need a split damage boost, above and beyond that.

But armor piercing is just the tip of the iceberg. The REAL problem facing pistoleers is the way that speed is calculated in the game. Thanks to Jaegen's hard work, we have the speed formula, which includes the profession speed modifiers ... and I ran the calculations for normal attacks (no special moves). If specials are used, pistol will be even further behind.

For this section, I didn't just compare a Master Pistoleer to a Master Rifleman or Carbineer. I also compared the Pistoleer to three other popular PvP templates: Pistoleer + BH Pistol (which has over +100 speed), Carbineer + BH Carbine (also over +100 speed), and Master Rifleman + Master Marksman (+95 speed). Also, note that I didn't include "Master" Bounty Hunters here because no speed modifiers are given at their master box. All that is needed is BH Carbine IV or BH Pistol IV. Anyway, here are the results:

DPS WITH ARMOR PIERCING AND PROFESSION SPEED MODIFIERS:

1645.48 Master Commando (Heavy Particle Beam Cannon)
813.46 Master Commando (Rocket Launcher)
539.41 Master Rifleman + Master Marksman
303.02 Master Rifleman
237.50 Master Carbineer + Bounty Hunter (Carbine)
153.99 Bounty Hunter (Light Lightning Cannon)
133.73 Bounty Hunter (Carbine)
118.50 Master Pistoleer + Bounty Hunter (Pistol)
102.86 Bounty Hunter (Pistol)
91.06 Master Commando (Flamethrower)
89.15 Master Carbineer
75.75 Master Pistoleer
71.97 Master Commando (Heavy Acid Rifle)

Wow. Once again, the first thing that comes to mind is the power of the new weapons. Although it's worth noting that SOME of the Commando weapons shouldn't be an issue at all, like Flamethrower and Heavy Acid Rifle. The LLC is not even that bad -- it needs a smaller reduction than the others. The guys asking for nerfs should focus on the few weapons that are more of a problem first, although those weapons have charges so they will need to be more powerful (although probably not 21.72 times more powerful than a Master Pistoleer or 12.30 times more powerful than a Bounty Hunter using a carbine).

But once again, many of these weapons are new. So let's take them out of the picture and look again:

HERE'S A BREAKDOWN THAT TAKES OUT THE LLC AND COMMANDO:

539.41 Master Rifleman + Master Marksman
303.02 Master Rifleman
237.50 Master Carbineer + Bounty Hunter (Carbine)
133.73 Bounty Hunter (Carbine)
118.50 Master Pistoleer + Bounty Hunter (Pistol)
102.86 Bounty Hunter (Pistol)
89.15 Master Carbineer
75.75 Master Pistoleer

Suddenly it's very obvious how much the Master Pistoleer is outgunned ... now Holo knows why all those Novice Pistoleers decide not to become Masters. The Master Carbineer spits out 17.7% more damage per second than the Master Pistoleer (which isn't too bad but is still significant although it may be related to other disadvantages), but the Master Rifleman does 300% more damage per second than the Master Pistoleer. Once that Master Rifleman gets Master Marksman as well, he spits out over 612% more damage per second than the Master Pistoleer. This is due to the "speed cap." As a profession's speed modifier approaches +100, the amount of damage per second skyrockets. Once the player hits +100 speed, he can shoot ANY weapon at the rate of one attack per second. That means that our Master Rifleman+Master Marksman only needs a +5 speed skill attachment to shoot a T21 rifle faster than the Master Pistoleer can shoot an FWG5.

For that reason, the hybrid professions that include the BH skills achieve far more damage per second than the "pure" combat classes do, with the exception of Rifleman and pure Bounty Hunter Carbine. There are many solutions to this. One is to reduce the amount of speed given in the BH lines so hitting +100 is impossible without skill attachments. Another way is to make BH modifiers different so BH Carbine speed doesn't stack with Carbineer Carbine speed. This would make the Bounty Hunters happy because they don't like all the folks who take one line of their profession, for whatever reason.

But what does this all mean for Pistoleers? It means that we're at the bottom of the heap, by far, when it comes to damage per second. It also means that while having non-armor piercing weapons is a significant part of the problem, by far our biggest problem is the bugged way that speed is calculated in the game. The major advantage that the designers INTENDED for pistols to have (the speed rating of pistols) is completely negated by the way that speed is calculated. One solution is to reduce Profession Speed modifiers across the board, so no one is shooting any heavy weapon (like the T21) once per second. Another solution is to remove the one second cap, so pistols can fire more than once per second.

I hope this data helps us combat a lot of the ignorance out there. We need to make these issues a priority for us, and we need to make sure that Holo and the other Devs take a look at this data! They would be upset if they knew how the bugged way that SWG handles speed is unbalancing the game.

While this is (generally) true, there does seem to be some mathemtical errors (they don't really affect the conclusion, however, per se - the check I did was with the T-21+master rifle+master marksman, FYI. It's obvious since master rifle and master rifle+marksman both have the same DPS with autofire with the T21 *since they both cap*). Things to note:

1) Styles: Some weapons have better special moves. In particular, commando heavy weapons don't have special moves, while the flamethrower (and HAR) does. Pistol and Carbine both have a hefty damage move which can be capped (due to the hefty speed mod from BH), stopping shot and crippling shot respectively. Rifle has one, too (at master, I''ll note), but they're absolutely limited to +95 speed.

2) HAM costs: rifle has a high DPS, and good special moves, but they require significant amounts of mind pool to fire specials.

3) The 450 damage T21 looks like a damage-sliced T21, or it's perhaps the best T21 I've heard of post-nerf.

4) I've seen FWGs with max damages above 200 after a slice.

5) Accuracy: Moving targets are harder to hit and are less accurate. This severely impacts rifle as rifle has very little bonuses while moving. Also, rifle range modifiers are considerably harsher than the FWG or most pistols.

6) Rifle and carbines take more damage from melee.

Quote: 4) I've seen FWGs with max damages above 200 after a slice.

He said he was using unsliced weapons for his test.

Once you start slicing weapons the pistol falls even further down the scale. A 30% slice on a 200 damage weapon compared to a 30 % slice on a 450 damage weapon. Just do the math.

No matter how you slice it (intended) pistols are on the bottom of the damage scale.

We need specials that work.

New pistols that have certs that work.

The 2 decent pistols that we have (dx2, republic blaster) to work.

Currently, pistoleers are THE most gimped combat profession that uses ranged attacks.

Dashai

/think should I just join the other 60% of the server and become a BH?

A (similar) damage slice doesn't change the damage ratio between two weapons. The point was that the T21 seemed very high damage for an unsliced weapon. The T21 max damage is actually lower on average than the laser rifle.

This is great work. Many might argue about the numbers on the weapons in their area, however. I know my unsliced scout blaster has better stats than yours (59-122/1.7/53 DPS) and it is far from uncommon on my server.

I had heard before that the argument could be made that half (?) of the random HAM shots hit health, so our damage had to be lessened accordingly. The idea was that we could focus on the health while everyone else would work on random HAMs and the target would end up health incapped and moderate damage to the Action and Mind. We also enjoy a bit of versatility benefit because our specials come out more often and take less HAM. For example, I can control herds with warning shot and suppression fire in a way a carbineer or rifleman could never do. Being able to nail three oncoming beats with warning in 5 seconds means I can keep them off me nets me a good technical advantage over others. Of course, this argument doesn't stand if they have +100 speed. The HAM does apply though.

Of course, a case could be made that we aren't supposed to compete from a damage per second standpoint with the other classes. Perhaps our intended role is to use our speed andlow HAM coststo our advantage and apply technical edges that they can't respond to. That's my take on it now. Facing a rifleman who can cause unbelievable damage to my mind, my goal is to make him miss those shots that cost him high HAM while I close in and fire on the run. He may have a high DPS, but that's only with 100% accuracy. Drop his accuracy and his DPS will follow.

I hope this gets the attention of theDevs.

Thanks for the intelligent response.

Even with 50% accuracy or 20% accuracy, we're still totally outgunned by those guys. And if you haven't noticed, WE are very inaccurate now ourselves ... especially on the move, which you'll need if you're running at the rifleman.

Also, I don't think that the fact that we focus on the health bar is an advantage. It is sometimes a benefit in PvE when you are grouped with rifle or carbine, that is true. But in PvP it's a huge DISadvantage. Carbines target the pool that is eaten up by the use of special attacks, and rifles target the pool that can't be healed. We target the longest HAM bar, and the HAM bar that is most easily healed. Not good for pistoleers.

Nice work!

I hope certain people print this out and stick it next to their monitors so they start making sense next time they make a decision about the game. One can dream.

As noted, that T-21 appears to be sliced or a pre-nerf T-21. The damage is about 30% too high.

Also, not all rifle attacks target mind. Our best attacks don't. They're random pool attacks. Rifle also USES mind for specials.

Riflemen can do quite a bit of damage, but our disadvantages are also the most significant of all the ranged classes.

Noules, you're free to run the calculations with your own T21. I know that you'll get numbers that are still insane, even if the damage numbers on the T21 are 100-150 points lower.

I'm sure that many special attacks don't target mind but are instead random HAM. Please be aware, though, that ALL of the pistoleer specials are random HAM as well. BodyShot3 (health) is worse than the BodyShot2 marksman special.

I'm disabusing the notion that riflemen always target mind. It's an option (and a handy one) but our best attacks are random pool, just like the pistoleer (I wasn't implying pistol had a better targetted pool special).

If we assume the slice of the T-21 is 30%, you can divide the DPS of the T-21 slots by 1.3. This actually brings the DPS of the no-speed, AR-modified T-21 to almost exactly the same point as the FWG, and I still believe the FWG you have listed isn't as close to the top end as the T-21 you listed (the absolute max damage of the T-21 is around 330).

Your speed calculation with the T-21 is off. The expected DPS of the T-21 w/ master rifle is 8.8x the value of the non-speed adjusted T-21 (since the weapon caps at 1s). The DPS at master rifle/marksman is the same, since they both will be capping at 1s.

We know that the damage rifle does at master is high. It's been known for quite some time that rifle is extremely powerful at master. However, a rifleman missing just the master box is considerably weaker (1/3rd the DPS). Until rifle starts to cap damage (which only occurs at master) pistol has a comparable-to-superior damage to rifle, yet rifle has far more disadvantages.

Finally, you say that the DX2 AR doesn't work. Has anyone tried testing the DX2 AR against a target that has acid resistance? There's a known bug that sets the weapon to an effective AR 0 if the target has no resists to that damage type.

Noules000 ,

I don't think rifles need to be defended on the points raised or that their give/take with taking more damage in melee, less accuracy at short range, etc. Those aren't being attacked. What IS being attacked is the balance due to SPEED, not rifles, or commandos, etc. At +30 speed, the "balance" is DRASTICALLY different than at high speeds, as we all know and love. There is no indiciation through reading or through game mechanics that suggest this is taken into account with "balance" (or lack therof).In fact,everything is pointing toit simply being a massive oversight. Recall the T21 discussions..if that simple of a figure wasn't at their fingertips, I'm willing to bet speed in combination with those, was also not taken into consideration.

FYI Philosopher, I did raise the speed issue as #7 in the issues post I submited, even included the forumla etc.(entered it before I sent it, that's why it's not on thesticky issues report..)It was far less descriptive than this post, we can put this link in the next issues report under the speed issue.

Oh yes Jaegen, I KNOW you raisedthe issue to the Devs in the correspondent report. They ignored it -- no shocker there. I'm basically just publicizing your ideas, and doing some of the grunt work math using your formulas.

I'm hoping that ifwe get enough people replying to this thread, and enough people send PMs to Holo, we can get him to read this. Once he does, things will finallychange because I'm sure this isn't the way he intended the game to work.

I think it's great if you post a link in your report. Let's just raise every possible issue with Pistoleer in that report -- no specials that work, no state changes, defenses don't work,no armor piercing weapons, etc. Maybe if we get even 50% fixed, we'll be a worthwhile profession.