Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Construtive Criticism for our Correspondant and debate on the pistoleer profession
First and foremost this is not a flame or a rant toward our correspondant he is doing the best he knows how, and no one can see the big picture esp when in the "hotseat" so to speak as he is as our team lead.
What i would like to relate is a differant perspective of what I would like to see happen with some of the pistoleer issues in light of the newTC changes.I'll say this onceI speak for myself not for the community like he does.
Right now on test center our mastery style disarming II is on thetable with threats of it's ae kd component being removed this is something that virtually all pistoleers feared would happen even after the nerf that doesn't allow us to spam it unless we stop to heal or group with a medical class.
Why is this such a problem for pistoleers ?
Most pistoleers believe the one thing that gives them an edge and even a method to compete with the other two pistol classes in the game (smuggler / Bounty hunter) is the ae kd component on Disarming II this is a mastery style not ever used in pvp for exp gain, since a master pistoleer needs no more pistol exp, and it makes us a feared opponent in the battlefield that is the Galactic Civil War.
With the sloppy introduction to the problem out of the way we need to focus on what is at hand, and look at these hard cold facts about how we stack up with other classes and the bugs that plauge us.
- Body shot III seems to do significantly less than than it's marksmen counterpart Body Shot II over a duration longer than 5 seconds. ( marksmen style makes pistoleer style worthless)
-Multi-Target pistol shot is still broken sometimes not even firing a non-styled dmg but instead simply eating our Ham pools and doing NO damage at all to the target. (mastery style yet worthless)
- In comparison to the smuggler line they have to gain one line of pistol exp for get 4 styles. One style does a ranged knockdown, one style does a ranged ae shot delay (pistoleers do not haveanything of this effect), one style is a get out of death free card, one style does more dmg than our highest dmg style stopping shot. One can gain these styles with 172skill points left over to spend, a pistoleer only will have 158 points to spend after attaining mastery.
-In comparision to the BH pistol line we must take into account that bh's will use more skill points than pistoleers to directly get all their pistol skills. With that in mind though they have eye shot targeting the best possible pool in pvp the mind pool, they have torso shot garanteed to keep people from clone rushing, and they have scatter pistol certification which is significantly better than the pistoleers elite weapon the dx2. And they can always fall back on Body Shot II since it is more effective than body shot III since it is in the marksman tree.
Balancing is in respect to other elements of the game, one HUGE variable in this equation that the devs think through is profession balancing. Meaning comparing what class XXX can do vs class YYY.
Now we see all this and we need to get a focus and from reading the top 5 issues from the sticky on top of this page i believe we have lost our focus. I'll go step by step.
Special Moves – Disarming shot 1, multi target pistol shot, pistol accuracy cap, dodge, and pistol melee defense 2 don’t seem to be working properly.
- Good this needs to be on top of the list and it should stay there make EACH one of these a topic in themselves with extensive logs and some community suggestions for fixxing these.
2) Holsters – Pistols should be able to be put in Holsters when not in combat.
THIS IS FLUFF... sorry there is no other way to put it. As someone representing the pistoleer profession you should not be bringing up FLUFF issues at this stage in the game is way too early and we need to work on BUGS BEFORE FLUFF.
3) Bounty Hunter VS Pistoleer – Pistoleers feel they should be more comparable to Bounty Hunters in PvP.
Drill this topic .. ask why should one class be expected to devote 4 lines to mastering a SINGLE weapon when a jack of all trades class is better than a class devoted to that one thing
4) Gun Twirl Special Move – Pistoleers would like to have some sort of special move or flourish where they twirl their gun or something similar.
Ok BUGS BEFORE FLUFF again ... don't even bring this stuff up it takes away from the focus of making the class work. I feel that an effective class in both pve and pvp is more important than a class that can twirl a gun .. If we wanted flourishes we would have became dancers.
5) Certifications – Need more certifications in pistoleer skill tree. There are plenty for marksman, but only one in Pistoleer.
MAKE HEAVY comparisons of the Rocket pistol and scatter pistol to the DX2. Make them aware of the fact that we need a pistol in the mastery stage of our profession to show the effort we put into the class. Having a novice pistoleer and a master pistoleer having access to the same weapon (abit a horrible one) is ludicrious
Jaegan please, bitch slap these devs if you have to, get them to understand disarm 2 was the only reason to master this profession, all they had to do was change the **edit** name, instead they just take away the effect. Why should I get master now, so I can hit another person's weapon? how's that gonna help me win in a battle.
Man I totally agree with your comments, and I had the same reaction when I read the first report. But since then Jaegen has totally kicked ass for us ... really impressive job. That first report totally killed us though, because the Devs got the impression that there's nothing wrong with our class.
We can't undo the past. We just need to make our voices heard now. Let's start posting like mad on the forums that Holo reads. THAT is what he listens too. Have you guys noticed that Creature Handlers get 1 jillion adjustments and fixes all the time, even now that they've been nerfed and people have stopped whining about them? It's because they whine and post a lot.
So start posting ... we need to make sure they understand how they're gimping us before it's too late and those changes go live. It may already be too late, but it's best to start the whining now ... that's the only language the Devs understand.
*Deletes all the inappropriateresponses and settles for*
I'll just say this. You don't post here much, I haven't seen you here, we certainly welcome you and would like to see you here more. I do see you are an avid CH reader, and I suppose I feel for you, since you got hammered, and are still getting hammered by nerfs. But the issue I have is you called me out personally, and are trying, in vain, to critique me. Unfortunately, this isn't rocket science and there isn't much to critique. I read just about every single post here, and basically just put everyone's issues on the issues post. I usually dont leave anything out, and if we get new issues or someone convinces me I left one out (it happens), they almost always make it in the next post. I get buy in before I send each one out even, and the folks are are super in responses, contribution, questions, answers, and in general, just nice people. So, now to your criticism:
What are you reading exactly? The designers post? It's both misleading, and in reponse to issues from a long, long time ago. Please go back and read the issues posts from back then *7/25 ISSUES* I even sticky'd it so people wouldn't have an excuse not to read it.If you want to be heard, by all means, post issues on this forum, but read a little first, it saves us both time.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE are still on our current issues list, which, unless I missed a post somewhere, has basically every single issue this fine community has brought to everyone's attention. I find that interesting, don't you? It was dead on for back then, and our recently submitted issues are dead on, based on this community's feedback. It's not hard, I just read and post what people tell me to. I'm here to do work for you, but I don't enjoy unfounded criticism.
Just don'tmake such a personal post is my best advice. If you have issues, just post them, I'll read them and we can discuss at length.
I will use commentary on the REAL issues we submitted, to help out and for me to vent just a tiny bit.
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Technical questions/issues:
1. Disarming Shot 1: Seems to just do random HAM damage (redundant). The name is misleading if it's intended to just be a random HAM pool special like the other styles in the stances/grips line. It makes sense to be there, but maybe it's a bit confusing. Folks aren't seeing a big difference between point blank 2 single (tactics 1)and this special, which also raises the question.
It's still on our current issues list, no?
2. Multi Target Pistol Shot: Several master pistoleers report that this special seems ineffective/broken.
I wasnt even a master pistoleer back then, I think it was about a week later that I made it. But we still got it up there, didn't we?Mameluke and a few others helped us out. Aand it's still an issue, imagine that?
3. Is there a CAP on pistol accuracy and speed? With the bounty hunter + pistoleer line, some report speed capping at +100. Bug or hard cap?
Ohh, little did we know this little beauty I'd test later and see that +100 speed is whacked when it comes to balancing, and guess what, it's a big issue now, and I've sent it in seprate from our monthly issues post 
4. Defenses, like dodge, seem to be fairly ineffective (rarely see a dodge). Same goes for any profession defense we assume. Could this be one of the reasons why professions all seem to be a little too effective overall in ability to kill mobs, and each other, quickly? Any description of what defenses are based on (what is +10?) and what melee and ranged defense is (is it a modifier "to hit") might help. However, in general, defense doesn't seem to kick in very often.
Should I even comment here?
5. Pistols seem to be very similar in overall stats - Even the DX2, the pistoleer special (achieved in the novice pistoleer box) pistol, seems to be out-done by scouts blasters. I suspect that's ONLY because scouts are currently more popular and experimented on, and DX2s are more rare due to that, resources, and being a master level weapon. It is acid damage, which is nice early on. Most "feel" that end game, composite armor will be widely available/affordable, and then acid protection will no longer be an issue, and thus, DX2 will again be a mediocre weapon. As I state above, we don't know since it's not end-game, and heavily experimented, it "seems" to have a slightly higher DPS, but it's something brought up a number of times on this board.
Well I'll be, even #5 is still an issue for pistoleers. I guess the 'ole pistoleer community had it going on even back when just about everyone was a novice
So, not that I hopefully caught you up, I'll examine your "issues"
Body shot III seems to do significantly less than than it's marksmen counterpart Body Shot II over a duration longer than 5 seconds. ( marksmen style makes pistoleer style worthless)
Yes, I tested this myself and posted the DPS weeks ago, to confirm it did less. Did you read it way back then? Rough draft FAQ even had it in it, and that was sticky'd (It's so old, we have a new FAQ to replace it.)
And of course, it's been on our issues list, and was submitted.
-Multi-Target pistol shot is still broken sometimes not even firing a non-styled dmg but instead simply eating our Ham pools and doing NO damage at all to the target. (mastery style yet worthless)
Yes, everyone tested this one, it was even on our issues #1 post, and it was submitted, again, as broken.
- In comparison to the smuggler line they have to gain one line of pistol exp for get 4 styles. One style does a ranged knockdown, one style does a ranged ae shot delay (pistoleers do not haveanything of this effect), one style is a get out of death free card, one style does more dmg than our highest dmg style stopping shot. One can gain these styles with 172skill points left over to spend, a pistoleer only will have 158 points to spend after attaining mastery.
Whoa, did you just say "comparison"? That'sa 4 letter word now on this forum. But to continue, you can get all of those smuggler skills, just buy them. Do you have delay info on last ditch? Is the DPS higher than fan? It may very well be, i'd love to see some data on it. Without accuracy, and most imporantly, pistol speed, the smuggler line is a nice addition to pistols, but it's not in competition with us. If after the nerfs, KD is still the best pistol effect (low blow), yes, we'll probably jump up and down (and respec our toons to get it), but until then, you're jumping the gun.
-In comparision to the BH pistol line we must take into account that bh's will use more skill points than pistoleers to directly get all their pistol skills. With that in mind though they have eye shot targeting the best possible pool in pvp the mind pool, they have torso shot garanteed to keep people from clone rushing, and they have scatter pistol certification which is significantly better than the pistoleers elite weapon the dx2. And they can always fall back on Body Shot II since it is more effective than body shot III since it is in the marksman tree.
More comparison. Didn't I already submit this in issues #1 and get dev feedback on it? Besides,if you like scatter and eyeshot, by all means, purchase them, it's just skill points. Focus on pistoleer for now, we will revisit balance at some later time, at least that's what everyone instructed me to do, I think wisely.
I only really post when i think something is either a.) extremely good b.) extremely bad.
I think we can all agree that this is 'b'
If you read my post you'd know i agree'd with virtually ALL the CH changes those nerfs after thinking about them really made alot of sense and i am thrilled to say i don't fell like the class of the month right now as a master CH. I agreed with the CH changed because they were needed and the only thing I siad i really wished was that pets started regening in datapad and they did so i didn't even post there anymore i am content i don't post
I agreed with the KD ham cost nerf made sense i welcomed it I was still content.
Now i am a little uneasy... and like I said this is constructive criticism not a flame or rant toward you I personally felt that if you brought up these issues ...
4) Gun Twirl Special Move – Pistoleers would like to have some sort of special move or flourish where they twirl their gun or something similar.
and
2) Holsters – Pistols should be able to be put in Holsters when not in combat.
And if you weren't the person bringing these up sorry I don't have the time to reas every single thread becuase of lack of motivation and i know how much redudancy are in these threads, and i am aware they were from the 7/25 thread not the newest one and i see your focus is getting a little more on track. I just want to maintain the focus on the bugs and hope this "fluff" isn't brought until the class has at least their style bugs ironed out.
I am just questioning the focus if you were the one who brought these two suggestions up basically. While I admit they would be "nifty" I personally think the objective should be focused on BUGS BUGS BUGS !
It is hard to balance a MMORPG and it is impossible to balance one with major bugs in the classes lines. Bugs "before anything before balance and especially before fluff in my book and anything that takes a devs attention away from fixing bugs (such as twirly pistol moves) is a bad thing at this stage in the class's development IMHO.
"But to continue, you can get all of those smuggler skills, just buy them."
I don't like this approach to a problem personally, and i don't have the points to throw around to get smuggler skills and maintain master CH. I feel that pistoleer in itself should be a viable profession without having to rely on another profession's skills. This is just bad logic to do the old "if you can't beat um , join um" theory and it shouldn't hold water in a mmorpg.
I pvp alot also without disarming II i am fodder for any BH with eyeshot , any smuggler with low blow or panic shot (which is a AE which is as good as disII for pvp yet it gets no nerf like we got)m any carbineer with knockdown, or any rifle user esp if they have a t21.
We can't hit mind unless it's a random pool move... we can't do any inabilitating move if they nerf DiS II so we are toast. EVERY other ranged profession wether it be rifle with dizzy+posture change, carbine with KD, smuggler with lowblow/panic shot, BH with eyeshot are going to be unbeatable assuming they have novice medic and a nice stack of advanced stim b's .. we just don't have the toold if they take this away. It would be like building a pistol out of a surfboard, paper airplane, and a stick of gum (which regardless the end result would probably be a better weapon than our dx2) we just won't have the ability or the tools to kill anyone......
Ideally i'd like to see it knockdown the main target and only do dmg to other targets as a compromise if that would be possible.
Jaegen broke it down into two categories. Top 5 bugs/imbalances and Top 5 "neat" things that we dont really care when they are added- but would just be that, neat.
The devs then took that, smashed all the points on broken moves into one "answer"(if it can be called that) and also "answered" the BH vs Pistoleer question.
Then, they proceeded to take the rest of their "answers" from the "neat" pile to serve as filler for their overly LACKING response.
Skip ahead in time....
Dev Responses are all up on the Dev Tracker, and since everyone likes to glance at everyone else's package they see the AMAZINGLY STUPID response that we get and automatically assume that these were actually the TOP 5 THINGS WE ASKED FOR!
They then, like you, proceeded to ignore anything else that was posted here or to read the original report for themselves and decided to slander Pistoleers all across this virtual galaxy.
Which is basically where we are now. Devs can't read so they think we dont need work, posters can't read so they think we're spoiled whiners, and the 1 thing that WAS overpowering about Pistoleers(and everybody else!), knockdown, will be removed from us without a single "compensation" or fix of our other broken skills because "they weren't in our report"
Glad you see things the same way i do ...
When the devs looked at the older report they saw the Fluff items and some bugs. Then they can respond to the top 5 things and the fluff gets mixxed in with the bugs when they look a the class typically (and it did) my constructive criticism (which people have a hard time accepting it seems) was that we need to be extremely focused on the bugs and fluff shouldn't be on the back burner it shouldn't exist at this point on reports imho. IF it does they can respond to fluff issues with a "Looks neat we might add that later" and may pass over more important issues.
Nehensi, with all due respect I think you're blaming Jaegen for the poor support of the Dev's. Not to mention you do have the help of hindsight. No one could've forseen how things would turn out when that first report was written. We made the mistake (all of us, not just Jaegen) of assuming that since they asked for feedback they would actually read our concernsand draw intelligent conclusions. It is now becoming very apparent to me why this game was released with so many bugs/issues -
Either the Developers are -
A)Incompetent
B)Unqualified (aka- In Way Over Their Heads)
They did not read our report, and instead glossed over it drawing assumptions and creating that asinine reply.
Nehensi wrote:
my constructive criticism (which people have a hard time accepting it seems) was that we need to be extremely focused on the bugs and fluff shouldn't be on the back burner it shouldn't exist at this point on reports imho. IF it does they can respond to fluff issues with a "Looks neat we might add that later" and may pass over more important issues.
Incorrect. Your "constructive critism" is nothing more than a poor attempt at pointing the blame to Jaegen for putting things into the first correspondent report that players posted here on the boards they wanted added into the report. Jaegen did what the majority of the pistoleers posting here wanted and added the desire to at some time in the future have those "fluff" items added to the class. The report Jaegen submitted clearly kept the bugs and the future fluff items separated, but since you've decided to not even try to read that report (as you've already admitted to) and go solely off of what the Devs decided to mash into their "response", you are not giving anything even closely resembling "constructive critism" to Jaegen's job at submitting the report the majority of the players here had asked him to submit.
It's very easy to come along now, long after the first report had been submitted, and try to place all the blame on one person's shoulders. That report that you are critisising was agreed upon by the majority of the pistoleers that read this board on a fairly regular basis, Jaegen did not just blindly pick all the things submitted in there and send it in without consulting things here first - and to assume he did so is just assenine.
So you have no "motivation" to read the originally submitted report? Then you have absolutely no basis for any such "constructive critism" since you refuse to even research the complete topic and therefore have absolutely no real valid points nor credibility on the subject. You're refusing to look at the entire thing subjectively and even in its entirety, yet at the same time are trying to pass yourself off as knowledgable on the subject. You only know less than half of the entire subject here, and the reason for that is your own "lack of mostivation" to reasearch any other parts of it...sorry that isn't "lack of motivation", it's laziness and an unwillingness to look at things equally.
So don't come here half-cocked and point your gun at one person who has done nothing but work is rear off trying to improve our class, when all you've done is read some hacked up, lousy, failed attempt at a response to a very thorough and comprehensive report. The fault is on no one but the Devs for obviously not thoroughly reading the report submitted and then posting some jackass response.
Should those fluff items have been submitted on the report? Yes. Why you might ask? Because of two reasons:
1.) The reports being submitted are supposed to include problems with theprofessions and ways to improve the profession.
2.) A majority of the players who post here felt that those would eventually help to improve the profession. Remember, not everyone is completely interested in power alone, some actually like to try and play their professions rather than just run around dueling and killing things at random. (No,I am not saying you are one way or the other in that aspect, just making a point)
Do I think the profession needs those fluff items? Not really, but a large enough number of other pistoleers did and so Jaegen added it to the report in a completely separate section than the bugs - it is not his fault the Devs decided to ignore the bugs section and focus only on the fluff items.
Spekao