Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Balancing the GCW PvP Arena.
I realize that this is not the Bounty Hunter forum and I happen to know that there is bad blood between pistoleers and bounty hunters. The reason for this is due to how Bounty Hunter is squeezed into the PvP arena with other combat classes.
Now, if you can't tell by now, let it be known that I am a bounty hunter but I have a few ideas that you probably wouldn't expect to hear from one. I want my class to be the strength that it's supposed to be. However, where I am different is how I think our class should be strong. I think people have the wrong idea about where the bounty hunter profession should be.
I'll be focusing on Ranged combat professions, and not melee. Balancing melee vs. ranged is a whole other story.
If you look at how the combat classes would be organized without Bounty Hunters involved, then you would realize just how much of a "disturbance of the force" the Bounty Hunter profession is.
Without BH, you would have your four main ranged combat types covered. You have your Pistol which is mastered by Pistoleers. Your Carbines which ismastered by Carbineers. You also have your Rifles which are mastered by Rifleman. Finally, you have your Heavy Weapons which are covered by Commandos. Each weapon should have it's own strengths and weaknesses when compared to each other. This keeps the system/arena organized, simple, and effectively balanced (given time to balance each weapon comparably).
When you stick bounty hunters in there, whom are great with pistols, carbines, and heavy weapons, with out this formal mastering that pistoleers, carbineers, and commandos achieve, then you have an imbalance -or- "disturbance in the force" as I like to call it. While, logically, bounty hunters should be powerful foes (considering they are trained and designatedto hunt and kill/capture for profit), just placing them within the PvP arena with the other classes is what seems to be causing so much trouble.
I have proposed a system that keeps Bounty Hunters out of the GCW (or the focal point of the PvP arena), besides Duels, allows them to retain their strength, and allows them to hunt players via player bounties. I propose this system for several reasons. One, player bounties is the most sought feature for bounty hunters. Two, since the bounty hunters are out of place when it comes to balancing in PvP, keeping them out while allowing them to only fight via duels and player bounties keeps for a more accurate Star Wars system. Instead of focusing on fighting for the Empire or Rebellion, bounty hunters would focus on hunting down and killing (capture is no modeled) for profit.
The player bounty system I have proposed is controlled by the faction rating system. Someone with low faction rating (-5000 or something) is flagged by the game and is placed on the Player Bounty board.. when hte person is killed then they are put back to 0 with their faction rating and put on a safe-from-bounty grace period. The more combat skills the bounty class has as well as the longer the bounty goes without being killed, the hire the price for him gets. This system, while not expained in entire detail here, cuts back on griefing considerably if not completely.
The reason I am explaining this system here, is because if you are a bounty hunter then you can't fight in PvP like you normally can as a pistoleer and such. Basically, you guys would be the real marks and I think bringing it up would be fair.
Now, this entire system (GCW - BH) would do several things.
1. It would balance the core ranged combat professions.
2. It would cut back on the flaming and nerf calling for Bounty Hunters because the only time a fight with one would occur would be a duel or a bounty on your head. Now, a bounty is something to be feared and I feel it's fair that a bounty hunter would be a powerful foe yet is restricted from attacking just anyone.
3. This would cut back on the dabblers as well asany # ofbounty hunters. Now, I generally have no problems with dabblers. I think it's a part of the skills system and it makes for some interesting combat. However, bounty hunter is a unique profession and as it stands now it's intruding in on what could be a nearly perfect and organized class/arena. I think dabbling with BH is bad because when you look at it this way: A Master Bounty Hunter is weaker than a bounty hunter with only one branch completed.
4. It allows for a great excuse to have player bounties (using a good system for it) and increases the immersion level of the game. Bounty Hunters should be more focused on hunting targets for profit as an underworld goon more than a fighter for the galaxy's civil war.
A bounty hunter would be a TRUE bounty hunter and he wouldn't be creating a "disturbance in the force." A BH would be a powerful in any case, except for a few "newbs" like Greedo (your Novice Bounty Hunters).
I think Bounty Hunters are poorly placed within the PvP arena. They're a unique professionbeing treated like a normal profession.
I leave you with a goal in mind. Let's all work together for a more balanced PvP system that focuses on making this game more Star Wars orientated.
Thank you for your time.
I also don't know why you guys are putting this in the pistoleer forum, but I do appreciate your time and always like discussing game issues with others. 
However, I think the constant calls for balancing the game are quite counter productive. This game, as it standsnow, is a tremendously enjoyable one. I have not found BH's that hard to kill. I can say I can't remember ever beating a Master BH, but they are fairly rare on the servers where I play. Each profession has its own gripes that I'm certain will be addressed in due time.
The beauty of this game is how customized one can make their character. There are many PvP templates that will own BH's...just as there are PvP templates to own any profession. I would stop placing the responsibility of PvP success and enjoyment on the DEVS and shift it squarely to the shoulders of the players. If you lose a lot, step back and find out why. Most likely you are making silly mistakes. I didn't PvP once until I mastered Doctor and Gunfighter. With buffs, great composite armor, and good weapons, I was a formidable foe...but certainly not omnipotent.
Suggesting large, across the board system changes is fruitless and only inspires tension between the classes. Each profession has bugs that need to be addressed. Other than that, I think the game is wonderful on so many levels.
Althor Ramius - Master Doctor/Master Gunfighter - One of several Americans on Gorath
Omaly - The black, Irish, Wookie wanna-be BH on Flurry
As I said, this is about balancing the professions and in order to do that you need to do something about BH.. which is currently the biggest rivaly of Pistoleers. Pistoleers have the biggest problem with BH being where it is.
This thread is about balancing the PvP "realm/arena/class" (which ever heh).
jwiener wrote:
.......However, I think the constant calls for balancing the game are quite counter productive.....
.....Suggesting large, across the board system changes is fruitless and only inspires tension between the classes.....
The bolded textis exactly what I am refering to. If you take a look around you, more specifically atall the anti-BH posts (nearly rightfuly so) there is a LOT of tension between the classes due to the way Bounty Hunter is placed into the (nearly) organized system.
You're right, this large change across the board will not be met with open arms because it most definently is a HUGE change.. it's a very alien type of change. Something needs to be done with how Bounty Hunter should be placed because it's obviously effecting the way pistoleers, carbineers, riflemen, etc are trying to play and it's leaving a big black hole of imbalance +3 in the galaxy.
This game NEEDS balancing and that's quite clear. Removing and alternating BH from this system will not fix ALL balance issues but it closes up that HUGE black hole of imbalance +3 (just a geeky description 
).
I think you obviously know a lot about this game and have come up with some great ideas. Firstly, I don't necessarily think the anti-BH statements made by some pistoleers represent the sentiment of the profession as a whole. My opinion is much of the anti-BH sentiment comes from poor PvP'ers. Or at least people with characters not quite leveled enough to effectively PvP.
Secondly, I just don't share the same opinion that BH's cause some sort of rift in the game. Master BH's are tough, as they should be. Dabblers in BH are the same as dabblers into any profession. I frankly am always interested in hearing about the different templates dabblers come up with. I think it should be encouraged. The profession system in this game implies dabbling as an accepted method of character creation. Sometimes I think some BH's think too highly of their combat skills. With my completely unoriginal Master Doctor/Master Gunfighter template and mediocre PvP skills (at best...hehe), I do just fine against most BH's.
Althor Ramius - Gorath
Omaly - Flurry
Im not sure why Im discussing Bounty Hunter on the Pistoleer boards lol, but you do have a good point. Bounty Hunters do throw a big monkey wrench in that very organized system. I agree that we should not be in the GCW, but I also agree that those who wish to be in the GCW should be allowed to do so. How could this be implemented?
Change the requirements for Investigation 3: 16,000 Investigation xp, mandatoryleave from the Rebel and Imperial faction.
This would allow BHs who dont want to Master the profession to still use BH skills to participate in the GCW. But if they are removed, they must receive other benefits. And no I dont mean better specials.
/disagree
I don't think the BH is a rift in the PvP area.
Furthermore there are other combinations that break the so called equality of Pistoleers/Carbineers/Rifleman.Some examples are Pistoleer/Smuggler/Commando, Pistoleer/Smuggler/Tera Kasi, Pistoleer/Combat Medic etc., etc. AND of course add CH to any of the elite professions as well. So your "pure" weapons line argument is just a slight ripple in the "force" (sorry I couldn't resist either).
When you have 250 skill points to play with there are a lot of combinations that can break the balance between "pure" professions, hence the constant adjustments by the devs ( I wish they'd fix broken professions first though!!!).
Personally, I'd rather have our bugs fixed before trying to come up with new modifications to our profession. People are having anywhere from 25-50% bug rate on BH missions, and that is unacceptable.
Also, I noticed that you had posted this on the BH forum also, what did you expect here?
The player bounty part is something most of us would like to see, it would make some sense that Rebellion or Empire want to pay someone to stop another's acts. Why not just put this on a faction based rule, like proposed ? Of course, something that shouldn't happen is the bounty loss of anything but time. Something like "unable to do something" for a period of time would be nice and fair. Ig the BH is killed by his bounty (which should be possible, of course) then it is the BH himself that will be unable to do something for a period of time.
BTW, I hope it will happen some day. Like seeing Imperial Colonels able to call up to 5 faction pets (no AT ST) or 2 AT ST, or 3 Dark Troopers, etc...in fact, give a "faction pet lvl cap" that is enhanced with grade (make this stupid grade valuable). There are MANY things that can be made btw and this forum is a players's one too, so why shouldn't we discuss it here ?
Thank you for the input!
Tanks wrote:
/disagree
I don't think the BH is a rift in the PvP area.
Furthermore there are other combinations that break the so called equality of Pistoleers/Carbineers/Rifleman.Some examples are Pistoleer/Smuggler/Commando, Pistoleer/Smuggler/Tera Kasi, Pistoleer/Combat Medic etc., etc. AND of course add CH to any of the elite professions as well. So your "pure" weapons line argument is just a slight ripple in the "force" (sorry I couldn't resist either).
While I agree that there are other combinations that are unbalanced, I still think that Bounty Hunters don't fit in very well because they aren't bringing any new weapon skills to the table that they are uniquely "masters" at. Instead, BHs are extremely good at Pistols, Carbines, and their heavy weapon (LLC) and at (supposedly) equal ground with pistoleer, carbineer, and a commando without having to go through all of this formal training that a Pistoleer, Carbineer, and Commando does. We've heard the argument from these classes, "Why should BH be just as strong as us at [insert specific weapon here] when we are focused entirely after the weapon..." you get the idea. It's just not balanced.
When you have 250 skill points to play with there are a lot of combinations that can break the balance between "pure" professions, hence the constant adjustments by the devs ( I wish they'd fix broken professions first though!!!).
I agree with ya here, except I'm afraid that this game will never be balanced the way it is. In order to properly balance this game some very SERIOUS and significant changes are in order and in my opinion BH is one of them. I know people don't like to hear that BH's shouldn't be taken out of the GCW and I know this is true because people are used to using their BH skills in it. The system now never should've allowed BH's to participate in the GCW because of the imbalance that they cause.
Personally, I'd rather have our bugs fixed before trying to come up with new modifications to our profession. People are having anywhere from 25-50% bug rate on BH missions, and that is unacceptable.
Yeah, I see what your saying. Of course, if this system were ever implemented I was assuming that these problems would be already fixed. This idea is really just a long term type of deal.. something that can't and won't happen right away.
Also, I noticed that you had posted this on the BH forum also, what did you expect here?
Actually, I posted it on the BH forum first and decided to spread it around a bit so I put it here.. which I later realized I shouldv'e just put it on the GCW forum. My intent was to spread the idea around, get some input from the different types of people around and that way I won't receive only opinions from just BH's, etc. I had chosen Pistoleer right after I posted this in the GCW because I see that BH and Pistoleer are tearing each other's heads off over balancing issues and I since this change would effect everyone, they would be an important aspect of it.
Dyriel wrote:
I don't want to see the BH out of arena neither, it would not make any sense.
Yeah, I understand this.. I really didn't expect anyone to except this system for even a second but I said why not
They are valuable fighters but for sure aren't used to fight in huge battles. It should be their choice, not something they can't bypass. After all, a MBH in a huge battle theater is just another moving target but still can be involved.
I'm not saying pull BH because I don't like them or anything
The player bounty part is something most of us would like to see, it would make some sense that Rebellion or Empire want to pay someone to stop another's acts. Why not just put this on a faction based rule, like proposed ? Of course, something that shouldn't happen is the bounty loss of anything but time. Something like "unable to do something" for a period of time would be nice and fair. Ig the BH is killed by his bounty (which should be possible, of course) then it is the BH himself that will be unable to do something for a period of time.
This is one possibility. There isn't TOO much room for griefing in the system that I thought up.. of course it's no where NEAR close to perfect
BTW, I hope it will happen some day. Like seeing Imperial Colonels able to call up to 5 faction pets (no AT ST) or 2 AT ST, or 3 Dark Troopers, etc...in fact, give a "faction pet lvl cap" that is enhanced with grade (make this stupid grade valuable). There are MANY things that can be made btw and this forum is a players's one too, so why shouldn't we discuss it here ?
Hey guys, I really appreciate the input you have given. I can't thank you enough.. even the most opposed person in the world would give great input because they could find holes easier, etc.
I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't want to be taken out of the GCW either if I were really used to it but as I said there is no way this combat system and pvp system can be organized or balanced without making some very heavy and serious changes. It's very unfortunate but I can't help but remain in the opinion that this is true.
If BHs were removed from the GCW tension and bickering would be gone almost completly between the class except for minor things.
But if you even think as uber asa crossbreed BH/pistoleers are that you could solo a player as a mark without the ENTIRE community screaming your very very wrong.
people in groups 'guild mates and faction members should all be able to defend their comrades if a BH attacks someone
other than that it sounds very reasonable to me
Leva Oripa
Master Pistoleer-Flurry