Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Weapons Accuracy Test
You're on Tarq? I am too, let me know if you want an extra body to shoot up. Post here or PM me with a date/time and I'll see if I can get on.
Im a lower teir Pistoleer + Squad Leader
(PS- I don't mind taking the wounds or the BF, you might want to have some way to heal though- I have zero medic skills but I cant set up camps for wounds)
1) Checking other +accuracy mods (while moving, while standing, etc)
2) Recheck +accuracy while standing providing only half bonus
3) Get more specials information
I've considered testing other state mods (stunned, intimidate, etc) but I haven't figured out a good methodology for testing this. It requires a lot more management than the mostly fire-and-forget methods of the other test that made collecting lots of data much more reasonable.
I have access to a master rifleman (me) but not a master carbineer or a master pistoleer, although I think pistol tests are more or less complete at this point (I don't think there's much point in testing disarm1/2 or MTPS when they're probably going to change shortly anyway). I might try testing PMD1/2. I don't have access to PBAE2.
For the most part I feel the accuracy system is pretty much well understood, with just needing how specific cases interact.
Set E: Rifle specials, moving modifiers
I was the shooter (master rifleman/marksman/SL, +112 rifle accuracy, +10 rifle accuracy while moving) and Nezlok was the target (+2 ranged defense, +30 group ranged defense from being grouped with me). Nez was prone for the entire period (which should be equivalent to +25 ranged defense). I was using a dropped CDEF rifle with range modifiers 0/35/64, +20/+50/-80. The tests were conducted at 60m (expected range modifier, -62). This puts the net modifier due to range, defense and accuracy at -7, plus whatever bonus rifle accuracy while moving will provide (unfortunately, this is something this set doesn't let me figure out). 'Running' was accomplished by autorun into a corner of my PA.
1: Standing, Prone, Autofire
232,148,82 - 1,0,1
2: Running, Prone, Autofire
231,134,95 - 0,0,2
3: Running, Prone, Strafe Shot 2
247,135,112 - 0,0,0
4: Running, Prone, Headshot 3
206,127,79 - 0,0,0
Analysis follows.
E1 was the baseline, and it fits pretty neatly to the expected results.
E2 was baseline for the running sets, and to see if I could calculate the movement modifier. Unfortunately, I forgot I had rifle accuracy while moving mod as a master, so we end up with two unknowns. If RAWM adds half the actual value as PAWS seems to, this wouldput the 'shooter moving' mod at around +8 to-hit. This seems pretty low, and it's even less if RAWM is working properly. This makes me wonder if your actual speed factors into the movement equation, or if the target moving is really where the big hits to accuracy are taken.
E3 is kind of scary. Strafeshot 2 has an accuracy PENALTY. It's approximately 5% LESS accurate than autofire, which would be a -10 accuracy 'bonus'. I always had a gut feeling SS2 didn't hit much, but I didn't figure it'd be a penalty. This was a surprise. Note though that SS2 is an AE attack, and it doesn't seem too unreasonable for all AE attacks to generally have lower accuracy mods.
E4 is somewhat scary too. The improvement to-hit is only 2.8%, which seems to indicate the accuracy mod for Head Shot 3 is only about +5(!) and could quite possibly be +0.This is obviously a lot lower than the +50 estimated for bodyshot 3. This goes a LONG way in explaining why novice riflemen find it so much more difficult than novice pistoleers (assuming HS2/MS1 follow this rough pattern). It might also suggest that using Overcharge Shot 1 with rifles is a really good idea early on, if it has a better accuracy mod (need to check).
Things to check:
- Target moving
-RAWM/PAWM
- Overcharge Shot 1 (maybe 2)
- Other AEs (flushing2, flurry2) - Flushing 2 is hard to test because it incorporates a raise posture and I don't know anyone with high enough defense mod to drive my rifle accuracy down enough while standing.
- Does speed affect accuracy? (not sure how I can accurately measure this one, except perhaps /follow while on autorun on leader and making really, really sure not to turn)
Noules - could you run some "base" tests with Expert head shot and some of the other rifle specials? I think you've got a few too many things going on in that last series.
Try just a straight stand/stand special test with some rifle moves to pin the modifier down.
Set F: More Rifle Special Accuracy Testing
Target was Arcz (ranged defense +13, grouped with me for +30 more ranged defense). I was the shooter (+112 rifle accuracy, +10 rifle accuracy while moving - shouldn't be relevant). Same gun as set E, same range.
F1: Standing, Crouched, Autofire
202,123,75 - 1,0,3
F2: Standing, Crouched, Headshot 2 ('Expert Headshot' - HS3 is 'Master Headshot', FYI)
184,114,65 - 0,3,2
F3: Standing, Crouched, Strafeshot 2
234,160,70 - 0,3,1
Analysis follows.
Expected, Measured
F1: 67%, 63%
F2: 67% + HS2 mod, 65%
F3: 67% + Strafe2 mod, 70%
F1 is lower than expected, although it might just be a poor run. However, F2 is about a +5 mod if F1 is accurately measured, which is consistent with the HS3 run. Strafe2 is very different from the E set, however, showing a bonus rather than a penalty here, of about +15.
Conclusion is that this run is pretty inconclusive. The accuracy mods from HS2, HS3 and strafe2 all seem very low, however. The strafe2 run either from last night or tonight was bad, or there's some sort of double penalty for certain styles while moving. Note strafe2 is the only AE style which has been tested so far, so it might be a result from that. Still, the variations seen here could very easily be noise around the expected 67% to-hit rate, so all we really know is that rifle accuracy mods are very low, relatively speaking.
Gray03 wrote:One thing from your last set of tests just lept out at me - you are doing these tests "grouped" and providing a +30 ranged defense to the targets (on top of whatever they have already) - which means that if they weren't grouped you would be hitting 15% or so more often. That puts a master rifleman at over 80% accuracy with hs2 even using the horrid weapons you are testing with - which would jive with my pvp experiences...
I think it is becoming obvious that ranged defense does work - but that accuracy is soo darned high for any master level character as to make a mockery of the system. Ranged defense is significantly harder to get than the + accuracy mods. Pistoleers probably are taking higher range mods, but with the extra accuracy from BH pistol + the special mod no wonder eyeshot is landing nearly every time even at 64m....likewise for master rifleman..they probably are taking decent short range penalties and moving fire mods - but they have enough accuracy to still hit nearly every shot in pvp if the target doesn't have 30-40 ranged defense.
Well, what this really implies is that people who are serious about PvP need to build their character to incorporate significant amounts of defense (ranged, and melee to a lesser extent). TKA precision provides +30 ranged defense, Fencer stances/grips provides +14 (+5 from novice fencer), Swordsman/Pike defense provides +10, Rifleman concealment provides +8, counter-sniping provides +5, all of the tier 4 marksman skills provide +2, and +6 from the ranged support line, plus +5 at master marksman.
Doing the calculation, you can get +84 RD if you're a master rifleman/marksman + TKA precision + fencer stance/grip (IMO, this is the best generic PvP template, i.e. a template that doesn't fill specialized roles such as SL, CM, doctor, BH or commando - it leaves 27 points to tailor the spec a bit, possibly to get novice medic, some scout, improve melee, or even get flame4 in commando) with a host of other defensive stats. Throw in a master SL, and you're talking about +114 RD, which is more than the accuracy bonus of any template in the game with the exception of BH hybrids.
Defense requires much more calculation to get than accuracy, which is almost always all in one branch/class, but it's not impossible. Defense stacks and is always active, unlike pistol accuracy and rifle accuracy, which cannot be used simultaneously. This is, btw, the main reason why I feel BH skills should NOT directly stack with pistoleer/carbineer skills.
Jaegen88 wrote:
Yay, accuracy tests! Great post! I think we really needed this to firm up our understanding of combat.
7: pistol, standing+bodyshot2, standing
96,62,29 - 0,2,3
Yeah! Proving exactly what rifleman have been saying! When pistoleer use specials they DONT miss.
Guess what? I'm a master rifleman. I miss over FIFTY PERCENT of my shots at ideal range while standing still.
One thing from your last set of tests just lept out at me - you are doing these tests "grouped" and providing a +30 ranged defense to the targets (on top of whatever they have already) - which means that if they weren't grouped you would be hitting 15% or so more often. That puts a master rifleman at over 80% accuracy with hs2 even using the horrid weapons you are testing with - which would jive with my pvp experiences...
I think it is becoming obvious that ranged defense does work - but that accuracy is soo darned high for any master level character as to make a mockery of the system. Ranged defense is significantly harder to get than the + accuracy mods. Pistoleers probably are taking higher range mods, but with the extra accuracy from BH pistol + the special mod no wonder eyeshot is landing nearly every time even at 64m....likewise for master rifleman..they probably are taking decent short range penalties and moving fire mods - but they have enough accuracy to still hit nearly every shot in pvp if the target doesn't have 30-40 ranged defense.
TekDragon wrote:
Jaegen88 wrote:Yay, accuracy tests! Great post! I think we really needed this to firm up our understanding of combat.
7: pistol, standing+bodyshot2, standing
96,62,29 - 0,2,3
Yeah! Proving exactly what rifleman have been saying! When pistoleer use specials they DONT miss.
Guess what? I'm a master rifleman. I miss over FIFTY PERCENT of my shots at ideal range while standing still.
29 misses out of 96 is a 70% hit rate (hardly a 'DONT miss').
Your results of missing fifty percent means nothing without knowing the circumstances of those misses. Actually, I'm assuming this is a 'gut feeling', which is highly misleading, to say the least.
It certainly seems true that Pistoleer specials have a higher to-hit bonus than rifleman specials, but there's nothing inherently more accurate about a pistol.
Try prone.
Try prone, with the target closing in on you. The inherent problem with rifle accuracy is that the combat developer envisions that our accuracy should come mainly from our firing posture. Sadly, we have no effective means of keeping targets at bay, which means we have to stay mobile to stay alive. Traps? The animation causes you to stop, so if you miss you just gave the target a good chance to close in on you. I am a master ranger and I still miss a lot, enough to warrant their use only as a last resort. Posture change? The effects miss a lot too, and that's if I hit. In case you're wondering, I'm a 4|1|1|4 Marksman, and a 3|0|3|2 Rifleman.