Pistoleer Archive
Thread: The In Concept thread, the Balance Pass, and what it means to you (now with a link to the thread!)
WesBelden
Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:55 pm
#14
6. Finally, the dual wield suggestion is completely retarded, and without extremely well thought out implementation, could be one of the more unbalancing changes yet made in SWG.
Completely retarded eh? That must mean that an aweful lot of people (including the designers of KotOR) have the thought processes, when coming up with ideas for games, of a retard. I happen to disagree strongly with that (myself being one of these supposedretardates) and believe thatdual wieldwould add a much welcomed spice and diversity to the pistoleer profession. Of course it needs to be handled with care and consideration, just as any new addition to the combat system, or any system for that matter, requires.
Sif
Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:14 am
#15
Marsupial-DREAD- wrote:
Fairly stupid ideas in my opinion. The pistoleer tree to me is one of the most balanced and "working as intended" professions in the game.
Are you kidding me? It's very apparent that you have not attempted to PvP while a pure pistoleer (no smuggler, no BH, no commando). Many of our specials do not work or do NOTHING.Buffed opponents are immune to pistoleers in PvP. The pure pistoleer is reduced to an opportunist against buffed opponents. We have the lowest damage per second in the game. We can still be KD/dizzy'ed despite our defenses rather easily even though we're supposed to be effective in melee range. You're calling us balanced and working? Come on. I'm not even going to go into the rest of your post. I would flame you to a nice toasty crisp, but since this is a stickied thread, I'll be nice.
Squidwalker
Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:30 am
#16
Nice work Ran. Good job in reading through all of those posts and compiling that data. Not an easy job.
I was one of the many that thought we should have the big decrease in accuracy at longer ranges, say after 30m. That seems good, considering your comment about melee 20m pusture change attacks. I forgot about those. We should be at their mercy but vise versa.
I also feel strongly about your number 5. We need some good defences for close up.The ones we got now are a good start, but we need some of the ones you see in melee classes. Some kind of COB is not a bad idea, or just give us that one. I'm for using already existing code.
Dual Weild. What about somewhere in the middle of pistoleer, not sure what skill line, we get the ability. It has drastic decrease of accuracy and can only be two of the same type pistals. At master, we get the ability to use two different type of pistals, and the accuracey is reduced greatly. How about if the first skill gives negative mods to both pistals, and at master its only got negative mods on the second one. The primary/first pistal is at normal accuracy.
WesBelden
Mon Feb 09, 2004 10:26 am
#17
Well Marsupial-DREAD-, your evaluation of KotOR goes against the general consensus of most gamers, award panels. I have to say your views on Pistoleer, both the profession's current status and where it should be going, are also against the general consensus.
Cozumel
Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:18 pm
#19
If they are going to reduce our range, they need to give us the ability to run slightly faster than normal (or slow down those carrying ranged weapons >30m)...otherwise, (unless burst is up), you'll never catch a rifleman or be able to hit him.. he'll just head in the other direction >30m..if u stop to turn the other way (while he's plucking away at your head), he'll just turn around at 50m... wash rinse repeat.
WesBelden
Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:24 pm
#20
newb question but what is "kiting" ??
Imagine someone running against the wind with a kite flowing after them, its string taught, the kite remaining pretty much the same distance away from the guy that's running.
Now swap the guy forsomeone with a gun and a kite with something that melees or is best at short range, with the guy blasting away hoping they'll kill the meleer before they catch up with them.
Madrox
Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:31 pm
#21
Marsupial-DREAD- wrote:
You know, that "Registered 02-08-04" & 24 posts really shows. I guess you haven't played the game, nor a pistoleer very long.
"I picked pistoleer for the ability to stack 2 bleeds on an opponents health pool and then spam bodyshot 3."
Well, considering youwon't be able to stack 2 bleeds on heath with the next patch, that's a moot point. Plus, spamming BS3 is generally considered inefficiant by the entire Pistoleer community and that BS2 is much much better.
"Finally, the dual wield suggestion is completely retarded, and without extremely well thought out implementation, could be one of the more unbalancing changes yet made in SWG."
First of all, let me thank you for posting with the intelligence of a Bounty Hunter. Secondly, there are a great many well-thought out ideas about dual wielding. Fencers are asking for the same thing as well. And since the "combat revamp" is comming up, what better time to ask?
"Decreasing range would be a bad idea as kiting is the only viable option in killing melee types (who can kd/dizzy you at 15+ meters..)"
"Pistoleer defenses are not overpowered or gimpy, with considerable dodge bonuses"
"Pistoleer defenses are not overpowered or gimpy, with considerable dodge bonuses"
Good job contradicting yourself there. If kiting is the only viable option, then how are our defenses not gimpy? If we had worthwile defenses then we wouldn't have to kite so much. Plus, the reason melee's even can hit you from 15+ meters is that the Devs hate kiting. So if they remove kiting, then what would we have left? Crappy defenses.
"Fairly stupid ideas in my opinion. The pistoleer tree to me is one of the most balanced and "working as intended" professions in the game."
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...even if it is wrong. It's clear to anyone who looks at the trees that even the arrangement of our skills is wrong. It's just like how the CH tree was in that all of the benefits can be gained just by taking 1 tree. 1 tree we have all of our good specials + most of our defenses. Our speed is all in one tree, our dodge is all in one tree, and our accuracy is all in one tree.Not to mention that there are still broken specials(BS3, MTPS, DS1 & 2) and random HAM specials with only 1 targeted pool.
I don't see how you are really a Pistoleer. We're not the worst by far, but to say we're one of the best is...well, delusional
Emavi
Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:31 am
#22
thanks for the info WesBelden appreciate it.
Im still trying to decide if I should keep pistoleer or not...I realize that rifleman is the flavor of the month but I dont wanna give up on this profession either...
TadPrime
Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:22 pm
#23
Thanks for the good summary Randonb, I've been hologrinding and not keeping up with issues...
Marsupial-DREAD-
Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:20 am
#24
You know, that "Registered 02-08-04" & 24 posts really shows. I guess you haven't played the game, nor a pistoleer very long.
This has nothing to do with my in-game experience any more than your "registered 06-26-03 / 207 posts" does; I apologize for not being a board warrior, but in all honesty this is a pathetic attempt to insult me that hopefully should not be taken seriously.
Well, considering youwon't be able to stack 2 bleeds on heath with the next patch, that's a moot point. Plus, spamming BS3 is generally considered inefficiant [sic]by the entire Pistoleer community and that BS2 is much much better.
A genuinely stupid change, which will in my opinion do more to hurt the Pistoleer class than strengthen it, as I for one will - after the patch - be creating a new template that does not include mastery of Pistoleer (commando flames and fencer footwork lines would create the potential for 3 health dots on a single enemy at once, before or after this patch). And as far as bodyshot3 goes, it is far superior to bs2 provded that you have actually mastered the profession (with all +speed mods), which - with a fast weapon - will have you attacking at cap speed with or without the small additional delay of bodyshot 3 (but WITH its increased damage).
First of all, let me thank you for posting with the intelligence of a Bounty Hunter. Secondly, there are a great many well-thought out ideas about dual wielding. Fencers are asking for the same thing as well. And since the "combat revamp" is comming [sic] up, what better time to ask?
Due to the fact that pistoleer damage is currently extremely strong, any increases to this damage as brought about by dual wielding would hurtle the profession further towards overpoweredness. The change would be suitable only if it were cosmetic in nature only.
Good job contradicting yourself there. If kiting is the only viable option, then how are our defenses not gimpy? If we had worthwile defenses then we wouldn't have to kite so much. Plus, the reason melee's even can hit you from 15+ meters is that the Devs hate kiting. So if they remove kiting, then what would we have left? Crappy defenses.
1. If you wouldn't still kite a melee even with the best defenses in the game (say.. fencer 4-4-4-0, tka 0-3-0-4, in addition to your pistoleer defenses), then maybe you are the one that hasn't been playing the game very long. To stand stationary and let a melee class beat on you - strong defenses or not - is just completely stupid, especially given the fact that pistoleer recieves nice bonuses to accuracy while moving.
2. I could care less what the devs hate or like.
3. They can't remove kiting.
4. I never said pistoleer defenses were OMGWTFUBER. Only that they are strong, compared to the extremely strong damage potential provided by the trees. Regardless, it is in your power as a pistoleer to NOT PUT YOURSELF IN THE POSITION to be kd/dizzy, which is a superior tactic then relying on any level of defenses.
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...even if it is wrong. It's clear to anyone who looks at the trees that even the arrangement of our skills is wrong. It's just like how the CH tree was in that all of the benefits can be gained just by taking 1 tree. 1 tree we have all of our good specials + most of our defenses. Our speed is all in one tree, our dodge is all in one tree, and our accuracy is all in one tree.Not to mention that there are still broken specials(BS3, MTPS, DS1 & 2) and random HAM specials with only 1 targeted pool.
Thats wonderful that you can determine my opinion wrong by... offering an opinion of your own.. Your flawed generalities aside, you say that "all of the benefits can be gained just by taking 1 tree". Then in the very next sentence, you go on to describe how specials are in one tree, speed is in another, dodge another, and accuracy yet another. So, which tree is it? By your own understanding, each seems to offer their own benefits (which actually are quite strong).
In a related note, I think people like this who cry about their profession so much, would be crying on another board about the same tired issues no matter what profession they may have picked. It is my opinion that the problem lies in the PLAYERS not the professions; perhaps you just are not very good? Second-rate players have the annoying tendency to assign blame in order to deal with the fact that they ARE second-rate players; my class is gimped, other classes omgoverpowered, blah blah. Nothing is keeping you from owning with pistoleer as the basis of your template (possibly lack of skill), but of course that is not enough for whiners of the category seen above. Perhaps SOE needs to provide macros to ppl such as this that will do all the fighting for them, db included, so that they can just troll the boards all day. Thx.
Madrox
Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:07 am
#25
"Due to the fact that pistoleer damage is currently extremely strong, any increases to this damage as brought about by dual wielding would hurtle the profession further towards overpoweredness. The change would be suitable only if it were cosmetic in nature only. "
Pretty much everyone seems to agree that Pistoleer damage is very low, comparitively. And in PvP situations, things like armor, damage mitigation, doctor buffs, and spice all but make our damage nil. Anyone with novic medic or having someone with novice medic around renders us unable to do any damage. (btw- most suggestions about DW'ing involves a cut in damage by 50% or more usually)
"A genuinely stupid change, which will in my opinion do more to hurt the Pistoleer class than strengthen it, as I for one will - after the patch - be creating a new template that does not include mastery of Pistoleer (commando flames and fencer footwork lines would create the potential for 3 health dots on a single enemy at once, before or after this patch)."
Agreed that it is a stupid change. But seeing your plan only reinforces the fact that Pistoleer is not at all a strong combat profession by itself. Yes, this is a skill based game, but someone taking "just" Pistoleer should be as capable as someone taking "just" one other elite combat profession(carbineer, rifle, tka, etc) excluding hybrids.
"And as far as bodyshot3 goes, it is far superior to bs2 provded that you have actually mastered the profession (with all +speed mods), which - with a fast weapon - will have you attacking at cap speed with or without the small additional delay of bodyshot 3 (but WITH its increased damage)."
Sure, it's good....with all of those conditions. It's just like saying Pistoleers are great.....with Smuggler specials or Bounty Hunter skill mods. There shouldn't be a handful of prerequisites just to make use of it. Shouldn't it be in a spot where it is actually useful when the player accquires it?
"Your flawed generalities aside, you say that "all of the benefits can be gained just by taking 1 tree". Then in the very next sentence, you go on to describe how specials are in one tree, speed is in another, dodge another, and accuracy yet another. So, which tree is it? By your own understanding, each seems to offer their own benefits (which actually are quite strong)."
Obviously you missed the point. As that sentence was in reference to the previous problem Creature Handlers had with their skill tree in that the benefits of the entire profession could be gained by taking 1 or 2 of the skill trees, without requiring Mastery(in case you didn't know, that's considered givng the shaft to people who Master). So it wasn't meant that ALL benefits are in one tree(as is easily seen) but that all benefits of one type are contained in single trees.
Example:
A player can go up one tree and get all of the Pistoleer vs. X defenses, plus two of the best pistoleer specials(Fan Shot & Stopping shot)
A player can just take up another tree and gain most of the speed of a master pistoleer, not that it matters as they're all just as fast as us right now
A player can take up the dodge tree and dodge just as well as a master pistoleer
A player can take up the accuracy tree and be almost as accurate as a master pistoleer
Do you consider that beneficial to the players? Well, it is good to a "dabbler", but certainly not good for anyone who wishes to master pistoleer. If a smuggler can pick up two trees in the profession and be just as accurate and just as fast as a pistoleer, with the smuggler's specials, then who becomes the best "pistol user"? I (as well as others) don't see it as the pistoleer.
"In a related note, I think people like this who cry about their profession so much, would be crying on another board about the same tired issues no matter what profession they may have picked. It is my opinion that the problem lies in the PLAYERS not the professions; perhaps you just are not very good? Second-rate players have the annoying tendency to assign blame in order to deal with the fact that they ARE second-rate players; my class is gimped, other classes omgoverpowered, blah blah. Nothing is keeping you from owning with pistoleer as the basis of your template (possibly lack of skill), but of course that is not enough for whiners of the category seen above. Perhaps SOE needs to provide macros to ppl such as this that will do all the fighting for them, db included, so that they can just troll the boards all day. Thx."
Question: If these professions are so good, and it is just player's "lack of skill" in playing them, then why does SOE feel the need for an entire combat revamp? Is the entire playerbase wrong? Are we all just a bunch of whiners that want everything to be easy? Or is in fact the combat system completely imbalanced(in no one direction) and has continued to grow worse with quick off the cuff band-aid attempts to fix percieved imbalances?
Could you honestly go to a Pikemen and say that it is just their lack of skill in playing their chosen profession, and that is why they suck?
What you see as "whining" and "complaining" is the only way to communicate problems to the developers. Because if we didn't complain, they would never know anything was wrong - as the Pistoleer community plainly saw with it's first profession report a long time ago. And just because someone voices a negative opinion, does not mean they are automatically whining. Just as people who blindly defend something are not always fanbois 
SoontierFel
Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:29 pm
#26
I don't see why everyone is complaining so much about "kiting" hehe 
I'm so sick of that word. If you can't catch a rifleman who is running away lol run the other way, burst run, I rarely lose to rifleman. We need to get the ranges working properly so there are advantages to being in your ideal range. Once that happens, if you can keep in your ideal range and your oponent is not then you win that's how it should be. Just like a rifleman can run away while we chase from 50 m we can run towards while they run away from 20m if the ranges are working properly this is how it's intended to be. There is always the option of running the other way with rifleman. If you are chasing from 60m turn around lol and run the other way make them chase you just so they can get back into firing range. Hide behind buildings until you get them close. Play smart but there should be an advantage to being at a range if you want an answer to kiting pick up smuggling and do low blow.
I'm so sick of that word. If you can't catch a rifleman who is running away lol run the other way, burst run, I rarely lose to rifleman. We need to get the ranges working properly so there are advantages to being in your ideal range. Once that happens, if you can keep in your ideal range and your oponent is not then you win that's how it should be. Just like a rifleman can run away while we chase from 50 m we can run towards while they run away from 20m if the ranges are working properly this is how it's intended to be. There is always the option of running the other way with rifleman. If you are chasing from 60m turn around lol and run the other way make them chase you just so they can get back into firing range. Hide behind buildings until you get them close. Play smart but there should be an advantage to being at a range if you want an answer to kiting pick up smuggling and do low blow.