Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Here's the Stupid thing we did as Pistoleers...
Why mess with one target when you can get a whole bunch of them locked up under your crowd control skill?
ThadeusZade wrote:
So what you are saying Jaegen, is that you don't really represent all Pistoleers just the the ones that post on this board?
Then I would say that has been exactly your downfall, by giving in to the absolute superfluous fluff that these guys were asking you to include in your report.
Do you even know what the correspondent reports are supposed to be? They're supposed to not only list bugs and missing or broken skills, but also ideas for improving the profession!! Yes, Jaegejn based his report off of what the majority of the pistoleers posting to this board wanted, that's exactly what he's supposed to de. I guess you expected him to make a pistoleer character on every server, travel to each of the planets doing a search for other pistoleers adn /tell them asking what they think the profession needs?Or maybe you expected him to spam all the other forums on these boards? Get a clue ThadeusZade.
The report was sent in with two very distinct and obviously separate parts - the bugs/problems with the class, and the future improvements that the majority of the people on this board were asking for. Hell, you're not even being original here in using the grand magical ability of retrospect to try and put the blame on Jaegen for sending in a report that was approved by the majority of people posting in this forum.
Is it Jaegen's fault the Devs decided to ignore the bugs/problems section and focus their attention on the fluff part? Not at all, who the hell would've known they would have done that? And you even ry claiming you did, because that's just a bunch of horse dung. Jaegen did exactly what the correspondent is supposed to do, submited a report that was accepted by the majority of the players on this forum that included both broken and bugged aspects of the professions and ideas for future improvements. As I said in the last thread that tried doing this same crap you are...not everyone is interested in only having "power" abilities, some people like to try and play their profession out and wanted "ablilities" that were merely "fluff" or for show. It's not Jaegen put the fluff section above the bugs section in the report. The first thing in the report the devs had to read were the bugs and problems, not the fluff/future improvements section. They chose to ignore the bugs, so don't fault Jaegen for submitting a report that did exactly what was expected of someone in his position.
Spekao
ThadeusZade wrote:
...The problems with Pistoleer have become worse under your watch, not better....
I am afraid I agree with this statement 100%. I also agree that we gave the wrong impression to devs by asking for the eye candy, I am not saying I wouldnt like this stuff or that it wouldnt improve the Pistoleer experience but come on you have to set your priorities.. once you get the most important stuff fixed (balance issues) then make time for other things like duel pistols, holsters and twirls. If the developers werent swayed by opinions of people from professions outside Pistoleer then Jaegen's issue post would have been perfect but unfortunately all it did was give people ammunition to shoot us down.
Pistoleer status: KD and can't get up.
ThadeusZade wrote:
We sent a Pistoleer report in that asked for "twirly" gun moves,the ability to"holster" our weapons, and "please, please, please make us good as Bounty Hunters". An absolute and complete waste of 3 issues that could have been reserved for BROKE SHIAT! Unforgivable in my eyes then, and in retrospect a complete disaster now. We sent the totally wrong impression.
If you review the actual report Jaegen subitted on 7/25/03 and compare it to the Developers' response, you'll note that they condensed 5 technical issues that Jaegen outlined for them into one issue. This had the unfortunate effect of emphasizing the fluff requests - which many in the community requested (Jaegen was merely presenting those requests as a PC should). There was nothing wrong with the content or the format - it was the Developers' lackluster response.
Auto wrote:
ThadeusZade wrote:
...The problems with Pistoleer have become worse under your watch, not better....
I am afraid I agree with this statement 100%. I also agree that we gave the wrong impression to devs by asking for the eye candy, I am not saying I wouldnt like this stuff or that it wouldnt improve the Pistoleer experience but come on you have to set your priorities.. once you get the most important stuff fixed (balance issues) then make time for other things like duel pistols, holsters and twirls. If the developers werent swayed by opinions of people from professions outside Pistoleer then Jaegen's issue post would have been perfect but unfortunately all it did was give people ammunition to shoot us down.
And again..how is this all Jaegen's fault? You all are blaming him for the way the Devs think and act. The priorities were in place in that report - the bugs/problems were right at the top the whole thing.
Once more - Jaegen did exactly what was expected of him in the correspondent position. He took the ideas of the majority of board attendees at the time and made the report accordingly. It consisted of both the bugs/problesm AND future improvements for the profession as requested by the player who read these boards at the time.
You want to point fingers, thenby all means do - but do it in the correct direction, at the Devs.
Spekao
Auto wrote:
I dont blame him exactly... I said I agree with things have gotten worse under him as correspondant, that is not to say that another correspondant would do much better, however, he should learn from this that its all about how others preceive your profession and in my opinion our issues list just made us a priority target for the nerf bat.
Then please give him a chance to "learn from it". This board has been riddled lately with people just blindly following the trolls and trying to put the blame on Jaegen for doing exactly what he was told to do. (No, I'm not calling you a troll or necessarily one of the followers, yet.) At the time that report was made, it was what the majority of the players posting on this forum wanted and suggested. Again, you can't really fault Jaegen, the only reason we came under fire from other professions is because all they do is use that stupid Dev Tracker crap, read the poor excuse of a response from the Devs, and then try and base every attack made at us on that alone. If half of them would take the time to even read what had been submitted to the Devs, they'd realize the truth of the entire matter - at least the intelligent and possibly even the semi-intelligent ones would.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with the report Jaegen submitted, all this crap came about as a result of the steaming pile of Bantha dung that the Devs posted in response to the submitted report and the lazy assenine players who are too lazy or stupid to actually look into things before making dumb assumptions.(and again, I am not saying you fit that catagory, just commenting on those that started this entire "blame the correspondent for the Devs ignoring the real issues")
Spekao
>>>>he should learn from this that its all about how others preceive your profession and in my opinion our issues list just made us a priority target for the nerf bat.<<<<<
I disagree. It seems to me the reason the Devs took away our ranged knockdown is because we were never supposed to have it in the first place. They would have taken it away no matter what that report said, that's just the way they do things. They go through every profession and take away the things that make the game (In their eyes) to easy. They did it with bounty hunters, they did it with TKs, they did it with crafters and now they are doing it to us. Blaming the report that Jaegen sent the devs for nerfs we all knew were coming is just silly.
This is a one sided argument... You have the people who have read the original report, and the people who havn't.
Sugestion: Devs... never do that again. *is really sick of Holo*
PS: I don't need things simplified, I know what he was saying, I said 'I am drawing a blank on where you are coming from' there is a difference. Let me simplify it for you "You a **edit**ing **edit** man" That's what I'm saying. If you want to know where I'm coming from, read the other posts here. (If you shudder at big long posts, maybe you should stay out of the thread?)
Spymaster2 wrote:
Quote: Auto
>>>>he should learn from this that its all about how others preceive your profession and in my opinion our issues list just made us a priority target for the nerf bat.<<<<<
I disagree. It seems to me the reason the Devs took away our ranged knockdown is because we were never supposed to have it in the first place. They would have taken it away no matter what that report said, that's just the way they do things. They go through every profession and take away the things that make the game (In their eyes) to easy. They did it with bounty hunters, they did it with TKs, they did it with crafters and now they are doing it to us. Blaming the report that Jaegen sent the devs for nerfs we all knew were coming is just silly.
I dont think we should have a knockdown thats a carbine speciality that I dont think a pistol should be able to do (not powerful enough). However, I disagree with what the devs have done with pistol, its a fast weapon and the gap in speed between a pistol and other weapons isnt large enough in my opinion. A pistol should also be a very accurate weapon, by this I dont mean it should hit everytime from 64m but our specials should reflect that a master of a pistol should be able to target any part of the body he wants but we only have a health target shot which is useless in pvp. I mean if you can target someone's gun you can target his head or legs ffs.
You will never make pistoleer a competitve profession with specials which only do random ham dmg, it practically deducts our total *USEFUL* dmg by about 40%. This is some of the issues I think our reports should include and thats why I think that the isssues we submitted were pointless, yes even the ones that werent candy issues.
We said that we want to be more comparable to Bounty Hunters when using pistol, I agree but dont beat around the bush, just say we want a mind pool shot thats basically what "we want to be comparable to Bounty Hunters" means. So when we say that, devs look at it and say "your not bounty hunters" and close the issue.
The report could have been worded better for a more effective response, the more you mix words the more they will. I would have made the *FIRST* report some like this:
Issues: (I realise that in first report we didnt know everything about profession)
1. Disarming Shot 2
This special ability does not disarm the target but rather knocks it down, if Pistoleer is supposed to have a knockdown ability rename it to reflect its use, otherwise change the special to something that disarming shot reflects, such as unequipping targets weapon for x seconds.
2. Body Shot 3
This shot does not to the amount of damage reflected by:
a. Its position in Pistoleer tree
b. Comparison to Body Shot 2
3. No Mind Shot
If we are to have no knockdown, then to make us even remotely competitive in PvP our current skills just dont cut it. We see no reason why a Bounty Hunter can target the head with a pistol yet the master of the pistol cannot, after knockdown a mind shot is THE most effective tool in PvP and without either of these a Pistoleer is not even in the fight.
4. Dodge
Dodge either does not work or happens VERY rarely, having spent over 1 million pistol xp to gain these skills we would like them to work and we do not feel that a pistoleer's agility in combat is reflected with dodge as it is at the moment.
5. Pistol melee defense2
This skill, supposebly superior to melee defense1 is not, it had no posture change attributed to it and does no more damage
Thad,
So out of all the points you had in the first post, you're now left backed into a corner defending just these 2?
1. Pistoleers got "worse" under my "watch"
2. I, and everyone else here "buried our heads in the sand with regards to disarming2"?
1.So you're upset with me, a volunteer, who takes issues from this forum (and from a few other pistoleers I keep in touch wtih in-game), makes a rough draft of issues, let's everyone read it and submit further suggestion, then finally submits it. You're upset with that mode of opereation, when you in fact offered nothing of your own to be submitted, and thus,are complaining about something inwhich youchosenot to participate in?Well, I think that's pretty silly of you. Guess what, you got nerfed and you're upset. To thrash about and take it out on those around you. Knockdowns were nerfed across the board, for good reason. DA2 was always supposed to be something else, even by your own admission....so they removed the KD and you what...think that's someone on this forum's fault? Man, you're really grasping at straws there.
2. Have you noticed that not only do I compile the issues, I also post the rough draft and give folks time to throw stones and it, and to make any last minute suggestions. Only then do I send it in, then I immediately post it. Did you see the issues that everyone brought up regarding disarming shot 1 implementation? We pulled together a list of about 4 issues, and submitted them. Where were you? Isn't this what you're asking for? For someone else to do the work for you, then if you don't like it, you'll complain?
Well already made the suggestions for how disarming shot works, old news. And in light of the nerf to disarming shot 2, I asked that everything we said about disarming shot 1, be applied to disarming shot 2.So what are you left with now? Oh yes, this:
Fluff and twirly things. Well, funny you even mention it, because my first issues report had everything the COMMUNITY as a whole wanted, not power gamers, not just you, not just me, it's about everyone here. 5 bugs (no thanks to you), and 5 gameplay suggestions. And you know what? They were 100% correct in asking for something that improves their game experience, and even better still....the developers did NOT get confused about the issues, only people that have no reading comprehension got "confused". You have read this latest developer post, haven't you?? Seems like we were right, yet again. They are now in fact, requesting MORE twirly suggestions, seperate from bug issues (imagine that). I'm going to head on over to that post and see what you're contributing there, holler if you need any more assistance.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=400361&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
FromJake Rodgers, Art DirectorSWG
First of all, thanks to everyone who gave feedback on social animations. You guys helped out very much. I understand that you would like to twirl your guns, you don't want to stomp your feet when you say 'wanna', you want to be able to lie down and sit on beds, and you would like to see yourself drink and eat when you drink and eat. I have a really nice list for capturing socials (around a hundred so far), so thanks very much - really good suggestions. (yes I got through them all)
Some of you are wondering why we are working on things like animations when we have outstanding bugs to fix. The simple answer is that we have separate people working on those problems. This is an enormous game as you know, and our team consists of smaller groups of people working on different tasks. The art team finished the majority of their work for this release about a month before we shipped. We needed to get all the art and sound files (the majority of what is on the CD) finished then, so that we wouldn't have to patch much artwork after we launched. This means that the art team is already working on things for the future- this is one of the most exciting parts of the project for us! We are already building the creatures, characters, vehicles, and ... well, other things we can't talk about yet that you will be playing with in the future.
I promise you don't want the art team fixing design or programming bugs. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of our artists, but we have the perfect people working on the problems you are concerned with. They are working right now, in fact.
Since you were so helpful with suggestions for social emote animations, I'd like to get some more help on profession-based animations. I really like the ideas so far, for example: group leaders using hand signals, artisans actually look like they are crafting, Entertainers could have a 'tip me please' emote, creature handlers want more pet interaction animations, flourishes with weapons, etc.
Here's your chance to request more specific profession/skill based animations, just keep in mind /fixthegame is not an animation the art team can make.
Thanks again,
Jake Rodgers
Art Director
Auto,
Have you read our more recent suggestions? SOE has also asked we detail the issue, and include detailed suggestions when possible. I'm doing what they want by writing more.
We have already sent more issues on 8/20. I think time would be best spent looking over these issues, and submitting some requests for the next issues report. In all seriousness, please do read the newest reports, and give feedback, preferabbly on those threads. While I read just about every post on this board, it's nice for everyone submitting issues, to see each others posts all under the same thread.
To address your criticism of the issues #1 report:
1. Disarming Shot 2
You didn't know DA2 had knockdown, hindsight eh? You also didn't know they were going to nerf it. Hindsight yet again? I "suspected DA2 had AOE KD, from the strategy guide, and it made perfect sense in regards to balance. Carbineers had one, but lower on their tree, smuggglers had one, but not AOE, so we got the AOE version at mastery. Big deal. So we shouldn't, at mastery, have a slightly better version of a smuggler pistol special? Come on. But the fact is, we didn't know anything about it until we started hitting mastery.
2. Body Shot 3
Buddy,we didn't have proof of this until wetested it's DPS, after hearing rumors that folks didn't use it much. We caught it one week later, right? (that's almost a month ago) In fact, you may not have even known it did less DPS, since it does in fact hit harder. But that's guess on my part..quitea few folks do their own parsing of logs and find these things.(and if they post it here, we listen).
3. No Mind Shot
If we are to have no knockdown, then to make us even remotely competitive in PvP our current skills just dont cut it. We see no reason why a Bounty Hunter can target the head with a pistol yet the master of the pistol cannot, after knockdown a mind shot is THE most effective tool in PvP and without either of these a Pistoleer is not even in the fight.----
Hindsight, you didn't knowKDgot nerfed, actually you didn't evenknow we HAD a ranged knockdown to begin with. So you watned pistoleers to have an AOE KD AND mind pool attack? Some might have considered that asking for too much, but really, the issue is you didn't know about PvP, disarming2, or the impending nerf.
----
4. Dodge
Dodge either does not work or happens VERY rarely, having spent over 1 million pistol xp to gain these skills we would like them to work and we do not feel that a pistoleer's agility in combat is reflected with dodge as it is at the moment.
We submitted this on issues #1, then we tested it later, and refined our report to show clearly, it doesn't work. Most folks posting here didn't even have dodge back then. I happened to have dodge skill mods, thinking it would be good defense and that BS3 was clearly the next best version of BS2, but I was disappointed...and ran test logs to show it.
5. Pistol melee defense2
This skill, supposebly superior to melee defense1 is not, it had no posture change attributed to it and does no more damage
Auto, it does more damage, quite a bit more. And you didn't have pistol melee defense 2 back then!! Once I got it I logged test data on it. We recently added it to our 8/20 report, please notice, since while it's a minor issue, everyone was asking the same question. If after patch it does less damage, guess what, we'll submit that too!