Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Tired of Skill Point Arguments
Taewyn wrote:
Volsted...Your using names and numbers, but not actually showing what BH's *can do* with said things.
That's because it's obvious what they *can do* with said things.
I'm a 2/2/2/2 Rifleman. An 0/0/0/0 Novice Bounty hunter is just as fast and just as accurate with a Laser Rifle as is a Novice Rifleman.
And I know from experience that being a Novice Rifleman with a good Laser Rifle ain't a bad thing to be.
The things I listed above are advantages by any reasonable definition of the word. They are things you get as a Novice that other Novice classes don't get. If being a Novice Bounty Hunter required spending 77 skill points working your way from Novice Underwater Basket Weaver to Master Underwater Basket Weaver, the skills you would get from those 77 points would still be in-game advantages that nobody else would get without also becoming a Master Underwater Basket Weaver.
If you feel that the advantages you get that are built in to the 154 skill points you spend to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter aren't worth 154 skill points, then either don't play a Bounty Hunter, or take it up with the Devs and tell them that it's not worth 154 skill points to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter. But don't try to claim that you need more advantages as a Master Bounty Hunter to "compensate" for all the advantages you get as Novice.
77 skill points working your way from Novice Underwater Basket Weaver to Master Underwater Basket Weaver, the skills you would get from those 77 points would still be in-game advantages that nobody else would get without also becoming a Master Underwater Basket Weaver.
Did you even read what you wrote here? Your justifying useless skills because we *can* do things somone else can not do?
None of these skills are of *any* use within the current game dynamic, whats worse none of them even remotly hold true to what a bounty hunter actually *does*.
The hunting and trapping was *obviously* put in there as some kind of role playing practice for us to hunt humans. However, one would assume, that we would have developed this skill into our career by modifying these traps ect to work on humans, however we did not.
I'm a 2/2/2/2 Rifleman. An 0/0/0/0 Novice Bounty hunter is just as fast and just as accurate with a Laser Rifle as is a Novice Rifleman.
And I know from experience that being a Novice Rifleman with a good Laser Rifle ain't a bad thing to be.
You did that entire post on weapons, I should not have to explain my statement to you. Your using a bad comparison that is based on a slow-sclaing tree, rather then it being based on a whole against master, and or other classes.
A 2,2,2,2 rifleman is +20 rifle speed over a master marksmen. In the equation, because of its explotential rather then linear natue,that +20 speed is huge. Other then that however, I agree with you 100%. A 2,2,2,2 riflemen has almost nothing over a master marksmen, however you did not read my post.
If you will note, I said riflemen "suck" until they reach the master level.The rifles poweristhe slowest to scale ofany weapon. Riflemen simply put do not get the "boost" until master level. Unless yousomoneis willing to dedicate the full amount of points required to master the profession, then it is a useless point sink.
One of the pistoleers biggest issues right now is how quickly the power scales throughout the tree, which in essence does indeed make it a "dabblers delight". The riflemen are not like this, it is all or nothing...If you dont plan to master, then dont bother, because rifles are worthless unless your a master.
If you feel that the advantages you get that are built in to the 154 skill points you spend to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter aren't worth 154 skill points, then either don't play a Bounty Hunter, or take it up with the Devs and tell them that it's not worth 154 skill points to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter. But don't try to claim that you need more advantages as a Master Bounty Hunter to "compensate" for all the advantages you get as Novice.
I am clinging to BH by a thread, however more and more I find myself playing my second pistoleer/smuggler char. My honest opinion volsted is I agree with you, In my opinion the BH class is a deplorable design implimentation. It should be a class that has general special moves, combat defenses, traps, and tracking....With enough skill points to allow the BH to master one profession of his choosing.
I *always* thought the BH should be most like a combat/tracking oriented smuggler (More combat oriented thensmugglers are now, with general specials rather then pistol specials).
However, in its current incarnation the BH wastes about 40% of its skill points on nothing. Although I would agree that one possible solution is to ask for a lesser skill point expenditure, I also know that would greatly overpower the BH tree, at the master level.
I do not want to see the BH's overpowered, the tree has alot of strengths now, if balance is not done correctly then the tree will be absurdly strong. As is now though, with the current "elite" balance the BH tree is lowing any redeeming qualities whatsover. It is *the* dabbelers delight in all of SWG, but because of the way its set up its extreamly hard to ask for any change that either will not underpower it, or over power it.
The only solution is to rewrite the tree.....However the odds of that happening are a million to one, and because of that BH's have to make thier case on the fact that they spend a *ton* of useless skill points in order to *hopefully* be effective in combat and to hunt people.
Taewyn wrote:
Did you even read what you wrote here? Your justifying useless skills because we *can* do things somone else can not do?
Yep. The fact that you think they're useless is irrelevant to the fact that you get skills other classes don't get.
And just to make sure my point is as clear as I can make it, I am in no way saying "Bounty Hunters shouldn't get <X> skill or <Y> bonuses in comparison to other classes." The actual issues of which skills you get, and who is better than who, are really tangential to my main point.
All I'm saying is "Whatever skills and abilities you want to have in the Bounty Hunter profession, you can't justify it by saying 'We spent 154 points to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter.'" If (for example) you think Bounty Hunters should get an extra +30 points of Rifle Accuracy, make a reasonable argument that doesn't hinge on the fact that you spent 154 skill points to qualify for Novice Bounty Hunter. It's the argument itself that's bogus, not necessarily the skills or abilities you're trying to justify with the argument.
Reading over your post, I see that in the essentials, you and I are largely in agreement. I say that the advantages Novice Bounty Hunters get for being Novice Bounty Hunters are built in to the system. You say they're useless advantages. If they're useless, the two solutions are:
A) Make them useful
B) Remove them from being a requirement
In this regard, you and I see eye-to-eye. Not to offend any Master Marksmen or Master Brawlers in the audience, but I think Master Marksman and Master Brawler are largely worthless wastes of skill points. Neither the Brawler nor the Marksman trees are "integrated" like the Scout, Medic, Artisan, and (to a lesser extent) Entertainer professions. As you correctly observe, getting Master Marksman and qualifying for the E11 Rifle Cert means f*ckall if your ultimate goal is to be a Master Pistoleer. By the time you hit Master Pistoleer, you will be more effective with your pistol than you'll ever be with a rifle. So as it stands, the only reason to get Master Marksman or Master Brawler is for the extra +5 Weapon Speed. +5 Weapon Speed is NOT worth 43 skill points, IMHO.
But, again, the solution is not "We have these useless skill trees you make us spend points for, so we should be l33t badasses in combat." The solution is "remove the bogus requirements, or make the advantages gained from them worth the skillpoint outlay."
Taewyn wrote:
You did that entire post on weapons, I should not have to explain my statement to you. Your using a bad comparison that is based on a slow-sclaing tree, rather then it being based on a whole against master, and or other classes.A 2,2,2,2 rifleman is +20 rifle speed over a master marksmen. In the equation, because of its explotential rather then linear natue,that +20 speed is huge.
When I said "An 0/0/0/0 Novice Bounty hunter is just as fast and just as accurate with a Laser Rifle as is a Novice Rifleman," I actually meant a 0/0/0/0 Novice Rifleman, not a 2/2/2/2 Rifleman like me. I was just referring to my level to illustrate that I knew what I was talking about. But I can see now why you thought otherwise. Bad phrasing on my part. Mea culpa.
Taewyn wrote:
The only solution is to rewrite the tree.....However the odds of that happening are a million to one, and because of that BH's have to make thier case on the fact that they spend a *ton* of useless skill points in order to *hopefully* be effective in combat and to hunt people.
I don't see why they couldn't re-write the tree. For example, if they made it so where Bounty Hunters could qualify just by filling out one of the three Weapon trees in Marksman (or, hell, even one of the 4 Weapon tracks in Brawler), everybody who qualified for Novice Bounty Hunter would just suddenly have 28 skill points they could get back by surrendering skills.
I mean, I agree with you that the chances of them actually doing so are slim, but it's not because it would cost the current crop of BH's anything. Some would gripe about all the time they spent having to qualify for Master Marksman, but most would (I suspect) be happy to have an extra 28 skill points to play with.
Personally, if I were writing the script and was in charge of the Universe for a while, I would make it so where you could qualify for Novice BH just by working through any one of the three specific weapon trees under Marksman (or by working through any one of the skill tracks in Brawler, if that's yer bag). And I agree 100% that Bounty Hunters should get the ability to use traps against humanoid NPCs and against PCs in PvP. It just makes sense.