Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Hey Phil... Show me where your defense mods are useless here?
Samra, your math is right, if it's only taking into account pistoleer mods currently on live, and assuming that 20 is purely a %. If TC goes live as is, the chance for not being kd'd twice in a row goes up to 16%. This doesn't take into account the actual success rate of the landing of the KD, because that's not 100%.
After all is said and done, what do you feel is reasonable to expect? If KD's success rate is 100% (and we know it is not), what do you feel is a fair amount of resists against it? Just trying to get an idea of what is expected. Perhaps you could even get an answer as to what the actual success rate for the different KD's is, and if the weapon used matters at all. It seems like the more dmg I'm doing, the better chance I have at KD'ng the opponent. If it is that way, it should stay that way, as that stops BH's from equipping cdef carbs and spamming it until it sticks, because if they try that with a laser carb, and you resist a couple of them, the BH will die fairly quickly.
I'm not sure where they put the mods on TC, but I'd hope that if it gets bumped up much more, that a fair amount of that would go to the master box, helping to make that actually worth more than the title and the speed bump.
phantomRyce wrote:
ok i see what your saying math wise but maybe im not totaly understanding?
Quote: Philosopher1976
First knockdown: 80% chance of success
Now, for the second knockdown, there is an independent 80% chance that you'll be knocked down. So you need to take 20% of the 20% that is left over.
.2 * .2 = .04 = 4 percent chance of being knocked down in two hits
Ok, 80% of the time the knockdown goes off. Now, wouldnt you get the 20% of that 80% that he knocked me down, and not the 20% of the 20% that he didnt knock me down? See what im saying? Thats what threw me off, that and with 20% chance of not getting knocked down we only had a 96% chance of resisting two, heh seemed kinda low (by that i mean chance to resist) to me.
State defences. Yea i know, blind imo will be pretty useless because you can get hit so often, the big help we get here is the knockdown and the dizzy. Those cant be spammed as much as dizzy or knockdown. I know blind state wont matter as much, well not when fighting a bh anyway.
Yea, hopefully you will have a chance to test the effectiveness i think it really helps (well the 70 does). And btw dont we get +30 not +20? anyway it dosnt change the math or the inevitable +50. I just wish alot of the other people would stop bashing the defences, sure some might not be as usefull, (IE blind) but even that is only useless agaisnt a BH, their not the only one with a blind attack. And the dizzy will be fairly usefull consider for bhs to spam, theyd need to use a carbine.
With 20% resists, given 100 different instances of trying to KD you, you would resist 20 and still be on your feet. We all can see that pretty clearly I think, although purely hypothetical. Now if I fire off a second shot you will resist 20% of those 20 times you were still standing, which is 1/5 * 20 = 4.
(100 * .2)*.2
(20) * .2 = 4
That's 4 times out of 100 that you will resist two consecutive KD's. This takes nothing else into account, including your ranged defenses that could cause me to miss, penalties for range and movement (for both players), and the success rate of the KD specialto begin with, which you guys know is not 100%, because you have a KD of your own. So please remember that the 4% is purely hypothetical, there are many other factors you have to think about before asking it to be bumped up to some huge number. I'm not saying it doesn't need to be raised, I just want to make sure it's not done in a kneejerk reaction to skewed numbers without looking at everything else involved.
Shadow2k wrote:
After all is said and done, what do you feel is reasonable to expect? If KD's success rate is 100% (and we know it is not), what do you feel is a fair amount of resists against it?
Okay Shadow, I'm back ... I'm really busy at work, and didn't get any sleep (stayed up until 4am levelling up the Jedi hehe). Sorry for being in and out.
My take on this whole thing is that I'd like to see the Defense v. ____ defenses also reduce the amount of time you are knocked down/dizzy/blind etc. I think that's much easier to balance and to test. Plus I think it's the ONLY way of making the defenses work for non-KD stuff, like Blind.
What do you think of that idea?
No matter what, though, I really need to test all this stuff out ... not just the defenses, but knockdown itself. Maybe you and I can do that together ... it's something that I've been meaning to test for a very long time.
I'm not really sure I want to KD someone, and have them bouncing right back up. I mean, I've seen both extremes. From being down too long, to bouncing right back up. If it's going to become tougher for me to KD someone, taking everything into account, I wouldn't agree with reducing the five second timer on that. It really depends on what my final chance to KD someone is, after taking all mods into effect. There are a lot of factors that work in your favor vs KD, they just don't do so enough right now.
My accuracy is going to effect whether I even hit you in the first place. This is lowered when you consider that in normal pvp, not duels, I'm going to be running at or away from you. I get no bonuses to accuracy when moving, along with all accuracy being lowered when running. You have ranged defenses, added defense for being on the move, and "dodge". I know you guys feel dodge is more of a hindrance, but if I fire off KD once at you and don't hit, regardless of whether you shoot back or not, I just wasted 150-250+ HAM depending on what carb I'm using Well, I don't, but the rest of the BH population that doesn't have my carbine does...even a cdef will cost upwards of 100 HAM to fire off with no armor on. I also will not kd a new character with no skills 100% of the time. I do not have any accurate numbers to give you, and I don't want to guess. Let's just say I wish it was higher.
Now all that is before you take any of the def vs kd mods into account. Then on top of that, you will have the dizzy def, which if it doesn't hit, will let you get up after five seconds as it currently is. I don't know how much lower that number can go, and still have KD's still be effective. I know that if I'm going up against someone with good armor, and I don't get a dizzy to stick with my KD, they have a decent chance at getting up...and I have some of the best weapons on our server.
There's a weapon that so many hardcore PvP'rs are migrating to the smuggler/pistoleer combo. Panic shot, as long as they hit you, is 100% effective, there is no defense to it, and it lasts twice as long as a KD with no dizzy. Granted, they don't get the bonus from the KD, but they have that KD in the same tree. Part of the reason is because the KD's were all nerfed.
Raising defense against KD I'm fine with. But if I keep getting the chance to land it successfully lowered, I expect it to be a big advantage when I do land it.
anything and anyone can resist KDs. I have npc's resist my Low Blow several times in a row and had non-pistoleer pc's resist it too.
vGeist wrote:
anything and anyone can resist KDs. I have npc's resist my Low Blow several times in a row and had non-pistoleer pc's resist it too.
That's kind of my point. I just don't know what those chances add up to. And to say Pistoleers should get XX amount of def vs KD is hard to do because of it. On top of just plain out missing the target. I'm not saying my KD doesn't hit enough right now, it does. But I know that I could live with a much lower chance vs certain classes to help balance out PvP a bit.
Just as a quick example, I was in Bestine overt and fought a smuggler/pistoleer named Droz. I hit Droz with Fire KD first, and niether my KD or Dizzy takes effect. He then hits me with Panic Shot so I can't fire. Then he KD's me with Low Blow, and then finishes me off with a Last Ditch...this probably took five seconds total to do. I was not buffed, but I was wearing armor. I have no problem with that. He's a good player, has spent a lot of points on combat skills, and should win some of our encounters when we start out on even footing, and are going against eachother 1 vs 1.
My question is...how large should that final number be for someone to resist my KD's? Not what number to put in the pistoleer box, as we kind of need more info on all the other factors involved. I'm just curious as to what you guys feel is a fair amount of times, out of 100 tries, that you should not get KD'd. Is 50 enough? 60? 80?
The KD pretty much makes up our whole carbine line, it's about the only reason any BH's even use a carbine. So if it gets negated too much by defenses, what you will see is what causes a lot of animosity as it is. BH's will start dropping the whole carbine line in favor of dabbling into the smuggler/pistoleer skill sets. That's what happened last time KD got nerfed, and raising defenses, or lowering it's effects will only amplify the problem.
I think the short answer to all of this is that I need to test this stuff and figure out what's going on. I don't know how often our knockdown hits on people with no defense (it's not 100%), and how Pistolwhip stacks up with knockdowns in other professions.
I do know generally how Defense v. ____ works, and I think there is a global fix for that -- making it affect the duration instead of (or in addition to) the knockdown probability, because I think that there are a lot less variables at play and it's much easier to test and balance. You may be right that it's more exciting to have the defenses work in theway they do now-- more risk/reward that way.
SinceI'm not thinking at100% right now (need sleep bad) I'll leave it at that. I'll test further. Dodge doesn't work, that I can confirm (I dodge 1.5% of inaccurate attacks at Master? dumbass animation as well?) but I'll be testing the rest of the stuff (plus dodge as well) as soon as I can.
Didn't even bother reading up the followup posts.
Anyone notice how he wasn't wearing armor? I mean, did you WANT to die?
Cry me a river because you died and didn't wear armor.-DP
What alot of people forget is that kd shots are *not* damage shots...For every shot a BH, or carbineer wastes on trying to KD you is another shot they were not able to do *real* damage to you.
Personally, if I go past 3 Fire KD's, most of the time I have already wasted too much HAM, and time to defeat said player. The reason being is simple, PvP is decided in seconds, 2 missed moves can be all it takes to lose.
The reason why blind comes up so much is because blind is part of a *damage* attack, meaning blind or no, they eye shots most likley will keep coming....So blind defense wont be as good as KD.
I veiw it as a trade off, the blind defense is not that good, but the KD defense is very nice...If we made certain defenses work someways, and others work other ways, we run the risk of throwing even *more* balance out the window.
The most important thing now is to figure out how the KD formula works...
Frankly if it is a straight % base, then that is absolutly killer...But I have a feeling its nor % based, but rather a furmula that has to do with the attackers accuracy as well as an innate negative given to the move (Such as fire KD might be harder to resist then underhand shot).....But that is just a large guess by me.
I think Eye Shot isn't that overpowered btw, it is way less dmg now than before in pvp (or explain me how I can hit a guy for 400 5 times in raw before I incap him, with no armor at all), I mainly use it for the blind effect, which almost always grants me victory. Of course, I often use eye shot to finish my prey but it is mainly due to the fact I already hit him here, if he is only wearing a helmet, I will switch to another special, for sure...but I need blind to land, this is what Eye Shot is for.