Pistoleer Archive
Thread: What is our role?
LordMaxx
Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:41 am
#14
BadgerSmaker wrote:
LordMaxx wrote:
We are actually more mezzer than crowd control. We are able to debuff and stop targets from getting their big moves off, therefore allowing the tanks and nukers the ability to do their job more effectively...
Not very exciting but eh...thats what we are...where's my pointy hat with the stars on it?Maxx, where are the debuffs? Have I missed something or are you talking about smuggler as well?
As a Master Pistoleer I have:
- 32m single target Intimidate
- 32m cone AoE Stun
- 32m single target "Warcry" type move
- 32m single target 10 Second "Root" move (that may be changed to break on damage I hear).
- 5 Meter single target KD
- 32m cone AoE attack
Is there anything else I missed?
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 04-21-2005 08:34 AM
A mezzer is someone who controls another...
So when you Warcry, or Root, or Intimidate, or Stun you are mezzing...is that not enough? If we are to be mezzers they have given us the tools...yet I still feel we are underpowered...yeah great if we actually have backup...but I feel we are getting shafted on power...we still need some of that we are a combat profession.
BadgerSmaker
Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:33 pm
#15
LordMaxx wrote:
We are actually more mezzer than crowd control. We are able to debuff and stop targets from getting their big moves off, therefore allowing the tanks and nukers the ability to do their job more effectively...
Not very exciting but eh...thats what we are...where's my pointy hat with the stars on it?
Maxx, where are the debuffs? Have I missed something or are you talking about smuggler as well?
As a Master Pistoleer I have:
- 32m single target Intimidate
- 32m cone AoE Stun
- 32m single target "Warcry" type move
- 32m single target 10 Second "Root" move (that may be changed to break on damage I hear).
- 5 Meter single target KD
- 32m cone AoE attack
Is there anything else I missed?
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 04-21-2005 08:34 AM
TheOneCH0908
Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:16 pm
#16
Yeah crowd control seems about right when talking about the new combat system. Think about it you mix master pistoleer with rifleman(distances of the shot) little bit of smuggler and commando(flame). You can shoot someone about 50 meters away with stopping shot with a rifle....quickly switch your gun to flame and knock them down and then they are burnt and then hit them with lastditch you are golden.
BeWary
Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:00 pm
#17
I haven't played around with MBH much, but It hink you will see ALOT of BH/pistoleer hybrids, if for no other reason than underhand shot is the least skillpoint intensive ranged KD for pistoleers, and if yer gonna get underhand, might as well grab improved underhand while yer at it, and torso has a DOT and is only a couple of skillboxes over...lol. You get my point. It's a nice stack.
MatrimHavelando wrote:
BeWary wrote:
some stuff
this is really good to know. so it sounds like SOE actually did something right. now if they can fix the crashes to desktop so i can actually experiment with it.
what other prof do you have Bewary? Im thinking about MBH. Does this alter our role with the added DPS which I would think we would have since the BH is considered in the Tank category.
DPS wise we are limited by our weapons. You could go and pick up any non-cert weapon out there and maybe do similar DPS to what your doing with some of your certed pistols, but you will be sacrificing all that wonderfull "pistol defense".If you want better DPs as a pistoleer, I'd recomend picking up master squad leader. The intimidator pistol is just scary lookin and you won't be doing much solo post CU, your group will love having you around to do the SL thang. Or rifleman, and using snipershot with your pistols equiped, or fanshot with a t21 ( tried it, weeeee fun 
)
)
SeraCohw
Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:14 pm
#18
BeWary wrote:
Or rifleman, and using snipershot with your pistols equiped, or fanshot with a t21 ( tried it, weeeee fun
so u can use all other ranged skills with pistols?
SeraCohw
Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:07 pm
#20
ok well is there somewere out ther that i can see a discription or what each ranged ablity accually does and myabe a postcu char builder(the one i had isnt loading for some reason)
NinjaPizzaBoy
Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:37 am
#21
RenKesson wrote:
I think there's amisconception about what Crowd Control can involved. As the "Roles Diagram" pointed out, there are three types of CC (Crowd Control) that the SWG CU is going to provide:
- Position Control (limiting movement, controlling enemy positions, etc.)
- Attack Control (debuffing, reducing enemy damage output, etc.)
- Mezzer (I believe this basically allows you to effectively remove a combatant from combat for a short time, making him/her a non-issue).
Pistoleers are Attack Control. We don't specialize in Position, which which is the Carbineer's ability (Carbineer's can keep targets position-downed almost indefinetely, slowing advancement, especially against Melee-ers.)
Attack Control/Debuffing is our form of CC. Debuffing is the opposite of buffing. Where a Doctor can buff us by enhancing our HPs and disease/poison resistance, and a Squad Leader can buff us by increasing our Terrain Negotiation, a Pistoleer can [i]de[/i]buff the enemy by reducing his damage ouput. We limit the enemy's ability to hurt us. Intimidate limits enemy damage output and our "Warcry" move delays the enemy's attacks.
Stopping Shot slows down an enemy's advancement to us, making it easier for us to kite melee-ers, and our melee KD gives us a few seconds to gain some distance against a meleer who's gotten too close, so that we can resume kiting.
We essentially [i]de[/i]buff the enemy's speed (by using Stopping Shot's "root" effect), and DPS (by using our ranged "Warcry", Intimidate Shot, and our stun attack).
We are a CC Debuffing class, and our abilities really compliment that role.
Message Edited by RenKesson on 04-21-2005 12:01 PM
Listen to this guy.
I can't believe none of you have ever played other MMOs. Our damage output will be a bit lower than other classes, but we have the ability to hold off an attacker until we kill it.
Instead of muscle, we have brains.
For solo PVEplay -
Use a damaging special you have on the mob.
Mob trys to aggro you.
Use one of your MANY mezz shots (root it with stopping shot, stun it, warcry it, stun it if it gets close, KD it if it gets in melee range).
Run backwards.
Attack it with a damaging special again.
Use another mezz shot.
Repeat until the mob is dead.
This process is known as kiting (don't ask me why).
Kitingis a very, very, VERY deadly tactic in PvE. As pistoleers, I would not be surprised if we were able to solo things that most other combat professions couldn't dream of. It may take us more time, but notice how in my kiting description, you never take any damage. With the right moves, you'll be a god.
For group PVE play -
Someone with the big damage will hit the mob and get the aggro.
You shoot the mob with intimidation shot.
The mob now does little to no damage.
You then stun the mob.
The mob has little to no defense.
Then you shoot the mob with whatever damages it the most.
When you see that intimidation and stun have worn off, you repeat the process.
My God will we be valued in group play. Watch how little damage even the greatest of beasts does when they are intimdated and stunned. You'll see that we never get aggro either. The tanks and nukers will be doing the most damage. The mobs will attack them. We just sit back on easy street and make sure the thing is as weak as we can make it.
I've played quite a few MMOs. The classes that can kite and debuff are very powerful. They are highly sought after in groups and can be some of the meanest PvE players with a bit of skill.
For PvP, we'll see. I'm sure kiting will work pretty well there too.
In summary, use your mind and not your brawn. Keep your opponent hindered the whole time and you will win. You are in control of the battle. You decide what they can do next.
BadgerSmaker
Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:01 am
#22
I guess I'm having a hard time equating the ability to apply states to "mezzing". This old Pistoleer has gotta move with the times, though.
I don't really feel that two states, a root move and a warcry make up for the lack of damage.
As I said in game last night, in PvP I reckon I'm gonna be lobbing CM stims, running away and hoping they dont have Doc again. 
Ok... a list of our moves?
Not taking into account any marksman ones here, but those nine are all bound to my number pad.
It's not a bad package all together... don't get me wrong, having working moves is a god send and I love it. I've had a great time on test "mezzing" and DoT'ingMoBs andplayersthen alternating between body shot and quickdraw.
I'm just not sure that this set of specials is enough for a pure Pistoleer to compete (or complement others) in high end PvE and PvP, that is if Stopping Shot gets a nerf, because it is indeed a very nice move. If warning shot becomes something useful and we get a bit more damage it may well round us off nicely.
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 04-22-2005 10:03 AM
RenKesson
Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:43 am
#23
Badger, I think what we're going to see is that specials will apply to overall DPS than before the CU. Pre-CU, your DPS was calculated simply by spamming the special with the best damage/delay mod ratio. In the new system, however, you can't spam specials. Your base attack becomes your regular attack. You have to hit your special every time you want to use it; you can't just queue it up ten times and then smash the button ten times more.
Basically, what I'm saying is that battle-long spam sessions should be effectively ineffective. They might be useful in a duel, but in a long term PvP battle, you're going to end up dead if you spammed your most powerful special move and drained your Action pool.
Add to that the "new" cooldown feature, and I think the overall importance of having a heavy damaging special is going to go down. I think the days of spamming specials for DPS are gone. There are going to be two kinds of professions now: the kinds that deal as much DPS as possible in a short time to overwhelm their opponents, and the kinds that keep themselves alive long enough to outlast their opponent. Overpower and outlast. We are the "outlast".
A Pistoleer against a Rifleman: The Rifleman's DPS is going to be a problem for the Pistoleer, but the Pistoleer's superior Defense mitigates that somewhat. Add to that the Pistoleer's ability to [i]de[/]buff the Rifleman's damage output (with Intimidate, Stun, and "Warcry"), and you've suddenly got a more level playing field. Both should now be doing roughly the same amount of damage to each other(theoretically speaking), and because the Rifleman's overall defensive abilities are weaker than the Pistoleer's, the Pistoleer comes out on top, after a much longer, drawn out battle.
Of course, player skill is the key factor in this situation. A good, well-experienced Rifleman is going to know how to counter the Pistoleer's debuffing and limit his defensive options, but a good Pistoleer is also going to make use of the terrain and line of sight rules to keep clear of the rifleman's fire as much as possible.
I am really optimistic about the effects these changes will bring to the game. I just hope they come out as good as they should.
BadgerSmaker
Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:00 am
#24
Oh I'm loving it and looking forward to it... I'm just really scared... 
MatrimHavelando
Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:09 am
#25
Thanks all, I think this has turned out to be a usefull topic. I dont think that the low DPS is a problem. Its a very good thing cause it will keep us low on the Hate List and help the tank keep his agro. The specials sound good and useful. Cant wait to actually use them.
NinjaPizzaBoy
Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:37 pm
#26
MatrimHavelando wrote:
Thanks all, I think this has turned out to be a usefull topic. I dont think that the low DPS is a problem. Its a very good thing cause it will keep us low on the Hate List and help the tank keep his agro. The specials sound good and useful. Cant wait to actually use them.
That's the attitude.
And remember - It is brains versus brawn. You will be able to do amazing things...with quick fingers and a bit of skill.