Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Reasons why dual wield and holsters are useless to pistoleer
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MetallicaJunkie
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:33 am
#1
With all the cries for these features to be added over the fixing of hte profession as I would like to explain to the community why neither of these two features will help us before or after combat balance.
Dual Wield. Well, this sounds like a good idea, surely with two guns we'd doulbe our dps right? wrong. What sort of combat rules would apply to dual wield? In D&D wielding a second weapon did give you the potential to do twice as much damage, but with a severe penalty to accuracy, this accuracy penalty would make it almost impossible for you to hit any defense stacker or any high defence profession or high end mob. If the devs do allow dual wield, it won't fix the problems with pistoleer, here is a list of likely new problems that will result.
- Dual wield may be an attack mode toggle ability that disables our special attacks, much like going defensive in D&D with active parrying.
- Dual wield may require identicle weapons, meaning we have to get factory crate guns meaning no tissues.
- Dual wield could carry penalties to accuracy, speed or damage on the second pistol reducing our improvement
- In the interests of balance, if we are not penalised for using a second weapon, then the other classes have to be given bonuses for not being able to dual wield.
- If we could use specials in dual wield mode, we'd deplete our new special meter (CB change) in half the time as usual allowing a tactical pace advantage to lost to an opponent with more damaging specials that didn't waste them all on spamming at the start of the fight.
Those are the possibilities, and personally, I'd like to see even just a couple of days where everything in pistoleer works as intended before all these dual wield breaks are introduced.
Holster. Whereas holsters might look cool, what use would they be? The best argument I have heard is that they could eliminate the equip delay on the holstered weapon. This is a good idea, but one that is also flawed, how many different guns do you use anyway? Majority of pistoleer only carry Republic Blasters for PvE, which works well enough on janta to get you a Geonsian Sonic Blaster to fight in PvP and that's about it. Unless we're going out to hunt something in particular that requires a specific damage type, that is our current arsenal unless you're loaded, in which case you use a DE-10 PvE and forget the Republic. We all know what will happen if you walk into a PvP situation without you Geo equipped which is why we all have our Geo included in the macro that dons the PvP armour. so tell me, why do we need holsters if we never change guns? There is an extreme minority of players with exceptional/legendary DoT weapons that would like to pull them out quick for a cheap CM style kill, well I can't argue that it would help you no end, but it would not help pistoleers on the whole, who remain unfixed by a revamp that gave them features that they have no need for.
Both of these features are obviously things of great desire for the community and by all means they would make excellent contect and make pistoleer distinct again. But the community must realise that unless we are fixed first, this content will fail, and the last thing this profession needs is more broken content. Like I said above, pleasedevs,just give us one week.One week where everything is working, then add the new content as requested, just in case it breaks and we're all screwed.
Night4554
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:45 am
#2
"our new special meter"
I'm not attacking you specifically, but I've seen a lot of CB things thrown around that I've never heard of. Where's the Dev Interview/post that confirms any/all of the things I've seen tossed around. I'm really curious as to what I've been in the dark about...
Most of your points are sound though. I'd rather have working, functional specials than Holsters or Even Dual Weild.
I'm not attacking you specifically, but I've seen a lot of CB things thrown around that I've never heard of. Where's the Dev Interview/post that confirms any/all of the things I've seen tossed around. I'm really curious as to what I've been in the dark about...
Most of your points are sound though. I'd rather have working, functional specials than Holsters or Even Dual Weild.
oddball723
Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:58 am
#3
while it's nice to see a throwback to D&D rules... i think the comparison is moot.
no MMORPG has every really stuck to any sembelance of old fashion RPG rules.
i mean even a concept like racial stat bonuses/penalties have been dumbed/watered down as to make them useless.
So is the much forgotten idea of penalties/rewards for armor and weapon choices. ie, heavy armor, equal great defense, but slow speed. or high power weapon... equal slow roundtime or archer not being able to wear above studded leather. ...mages not wearing armor. etc etc etc. ...now there are no archers or mages in SWG. but we do have rifleman and doctors. penalties like that i think would make sense there... and TKA. not that they really need to wear armor at master. but how do they do all that crazy kung-fu with heavy comp armor on??? boggles the mind.
AC, SWG, and others i'm sure... all threw those ideas out the window.
so why make that case... the point of why worry about that.. when other things need fixing is a valid point. but it sort of like turning your nose up at new ideas.
the problems with pistols are that they're inherently low damage weapons. fast, but weak. so adding/having two firing at once seems like a good idea.
true, there could be any number of consequences... or penalties, or lame little caveats, but it could also work out well.
there's no real reason to think, that if for some odd reason they ever gave us dual wield abilities, they'd add restrictions against using specials, or horrible acuracy penalties or anything.
and the sheer "coolness" factor of being able to dual wield pistols would be interesting. holsters i think is taking the aethetics a bit too far. i mean, that's a whole new game dynamic, just for aesthetics. but the dual wield has game mechanic ramifications ...and therefor is a better pipe dream.
i dunno... better to be glass half full and order another beer than just be glass half empty and complaining.
Vas
Dyraak_Sinh
Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:26 am
#4
I don't think most of the people who are for dual wield and holsters will argue your point that they're "useless". Most of us want them because they're cool. They make using a pistol fun. Yes, some game-mechanics issues need addressed as well, but many of us are just as interested in the fun-factor.
Genn-great-Genn
Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:55 am
#5
For pve I carry all my guns with me so that I can almost allways hit an opponents weak spot...
not only a republic blaster.
LSswg61
Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:01 pm
#7
you know....I don't think I've ever used a republic blaster, modified or otherwise...I always carry my FWG5 which I use primarily for both pve and pvp. does it work against alot of armor...no, but i chose it because, in my opionen, it looks better. and although I do use a geo blaster, I only use it for situations like, I need to do a ton of damage in a hurry, cause either me or my friends are about to die (let's hear it for fanshot 
) and as for holsters...I agree, they would look nice but aren't really an integral part of the game. Would I get one if they came out, sure. Dual wielding would be great, for the reasons mentioned above...it would look cool. But....I can't imagine the devs giving out something like that and making it worse than what we already have. Sure, we might get slower attacks and less accurate, but at the master level, wouldn't our bonuses just fix that anyway. Oh, and for you DnD referance......there are skills and proficiencies that can more than make up for the negitives for using two weapons.....ambidextarity, plus two weapon fighting style, plus a light off hand weapon gives only a -2 to your offhand. Not too bad there, still going to hit most things unless you are constantly going up against say....ancient red dragons 
) and as for holsters...I agree, they would look nice but aren't really an integral part of the game. Would I get one if they came out, sure. Dual wielding would be great, for the reasons mentioned above...it would look cool. But....I can't imagine the devs giving out something like that and making it worse than what we already have. Sure, we might get slower attacks and less accurate, but at the master level, wouldn't our bonuses just fix that anyway. Oh, and for you DnD referance......there are skills and proficiencies that can more than make up for the negitives for using two weapons.....ambidextarity, plus two weapon fighting style, plus a light off hand weapon gives only a -2 to your offhand. Not too bad there, still going to hit most things unless you are constantly going up against say....ancient red dragons Just my opionen
Lancce
nudnick
Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:36 pm
#8
Deiouss wrote:
2. All of your points are just assumptions.
and assumptions are the mother of all fuhkups
MetallicaJunkie
Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:14 am
#9
Ok, a lot of counter points made and people admit that they want the holsters and dual wield to "look cool" I as a pistoleer would love to look cool, but is it too much to ask to be effective while doing it?
As for my "assumptions" I call those educated guesses. It stands to reason that if pistoleers and fencers are going to be the only classes to dual wield, then surely there must be some sort of method to counter balance us against the others, otherwise we'd be left in the same situation as we are now. Two 700 damage DE-10 (krayted, sliced and powered) at the speed cap firing stopping shot would outdamage any other single character of any template with post combat balance equipment on any mob in the game (with reasonable resists) so there must be a counter, speed accuracy or lack of specials. Consider a fencer with two stun batons using a bugged scatterhit3 at the speed cap, currently stun protection allows us to live a short time in the face of a fencer, long enough to hit burst run and kite him a little anyway, what if he had two? both with acklay bones in 'em. You'd die in seconds regardless of buffs and armour, counter balance, speed accuracy or specials. If you guys can't see the idea of counter balance to make things right against what would be truly overpowered, check the number of "don't nerf us" threads on rifleman and combat medic forums, those two professions honestly believe they deserve to do as they do currently.
All of my points in this post were thought through consideration of a "combat balance" where no profession would have a clear cut advantage over all, sure there should be an advantage to each profession, but not over all others as we have currently in the FotM professions.
LSswg61, nice to see someone else has played DnD, of course not a lot of people have, which is why I try not to take things too deep when using it as a reference, I do wish more games would look to DnD for inspiration with regards to RPGs, it has got to be the best and longest running RPG ever. and if a REAL DnD mmorpg came out, I honestly believe that SWG would be dropped without thought, until then we await Middle Earth Online to do the job.
mescalinex
Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:22 am
#10
if dual wielding does get added, they will have a simple solution, they will be ONE weapon, a new kind of pistol. when you equip it , it equips both guns but it functions as ONE item and . it has one weapons speed, one weapons damage, gets one slice, needs one repair kit use. dual wielding will not be 2 pistols. face it, its going to be a new weapon, a pair of guns, probly the jango blasters...and they will be a SINGLE weapon that is graphically fun.
this issue has been about beat to death haha. 
LSswg61
Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:44 am
#11
You know...I can see that...them making one weapon that appears as two. I hope not though...I would love to equip twin FWG5's and go to town. *shrug* nothing to do now though but wait until the dev's actually post something about it in the forums or it goes live and we can see for our selves. Oh well.
You know, I just had an odd thought.....mabye an evil one.....fencers and pistoleers getting dual wield.......combine the two....a sword iin one hand, and a pistol in the other 
MetallicaJunkie, I also would love a DnD, true DnD style MMORPG, but I'd be afraid the game would get something/lots of things wrong......i.e. remember the DnD movie? 
Interesting fantasy style movie....but no where near a DnD movie.
Interesting fantasy style movie....but no where near a DnD movie.oh well, just my opinion
Lancce
Andriko
Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:23 am
#12
I read a Dev post that said something about this, I remember it had something to do with 'not killing yourself in combat'
There will be a special HAM for using special attacks, that can't be targetted for attack, will deplete faster than your normal HAM does now, but also replenishes faster, and that those values would be in direct corellation with secondary HAM buffs etc
MetallicaJunkie
Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:33 am
#13
I remember that movie, it was terrible, glad I only lost ten minutes to that tripe. lol
I have considered the sword in one hand and pistol in the other, kinda like my W40k assault troops, it would be pretty cool, but incredibly hard, if not impossible to implement. Unless you make it a single weapon, butit could be a ranged weapon with an exceptional pointblank mod that would be completely useless outside of about 30-40m, at least that's how I would do it, making it a melee support for pistoleer, or giving fencer a little ranged ability, would be a nice touch though.
I sincerely hope that if the devs intend to make the dual wield a weapon as opposed to an ability that we have at least three viable options aka 3 different damage types, last thing we need to see are dual Republic's, dual DX2's and dual DE-10's, I would like to see a dual wield option for all pistoleer guns, even the marksman pistols. Dual DL-44s would look awesome, and since the devs have promised that our lowly marksman pistols will be making a comeback into our arsenals I am hopeful for our friend the DL-44, proper Star Wars pistols.
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