Pistoleer Archive
Thread: You think we are broken now, wait till publish 7
I'm not a crafter. I don't understand the deep intricacies of the crafting system, and I don't pretend to. I've done it a little and played around with experimentation, but never anything high level and I certainly didn't concern myself with the math behind it. Keeping that in mind, here are some things to remember:
The gear on TC stinks. It doesn't have the kind ofdedicated crafters that make the top-notch items most of us are accustomed to. The resource merchants even sell sub-par resources. People are mainly there to test, not to do well. Keeping that in mind, it is difficult to accurately gauge the difference in merchandise that we will see if/when this hits live.
From what it sounds like, and I could be wrong, crafters who use crappy resources and try to make up for it with good rolls on experimentation points will be punished. Crafters who use good resources will see about the same items produced. There are 10 professions (all with capable correspondents whom I trust) that this affects directly, and they would be better suited for both explaining the issue and fighting for it. I lack both the expertise and the first hand experience to deal with it effectively. If it concerns you, I suggest heading to the affected forums.
Of course there isnothing wrong with spreading the info around here.Thanks,Techboss.
biwan:
Randonb wrote:
I'm not a crafter. I don't understand the deep intricacies of the crafting system, and I don't pretend to. I've done it a little and played around with experimentation, but never anything high level and I certainly didn't concern myself with the math behind it. Keeping that in mind, here are some things to remember:
The gear on TC stinks. It doesn't have the kind ofdedicated crafters that make the top-notch items most of us are accustomed to. The resource merchants even sell sub-par resources. People are mainly there to test, not to do well. Keeping that in mind, it is difficult to accurately gauge the difference in merchandise that we will see if/when this hits live.
From what it sounds like, and I could be wrong, crafters who use crappy resources and try to make up for it with good rolls on experimentation points will be punished. Crafters who use good resources will see about the same items produced. There are 10 professions (all with capable correspondents whom I trust) that this affects directly, and they would be better suited for both explaining the issue and fighting for it. I lack both the expertise and the first hand experience to deal with it effectively. If it concerns you, I suggest heading to the affected forums.
Of course there isnothing wrong with spreading the info around here.Thanks,Techboss.
- 1000 OQ & 1000 PE = 30% starting and 100% maximum
- 1000 OQ & 500 PE = 27% starting and 83% maximum
- 500 OQ & 1000 PE = 20% starting and 67% maximum
- 500 OQ & 500 PE = 15% starting and 50% maximum
- Starting damage is 30 and the experimentedmaximum damage is 100, speed is 7, HAM is 7
- Starting damage is 27 and the experimented maximum damage is 83, speed is 5.9, HAM is 7.3.
- Starting damage is 20 and the experimented maximum damage is 67, speed is 5.9, HAM is 8
- Starting damage is 15and the experimented maximum damage is 50, speed is5, HAM is 8.5
As you can see, the damage goes down as you use less perfect resouces, the HAM costs increase and the speed of the weapon can be lowered by using the leftover expermentation points from damage. Since resource #2 is closer to the actual stuff that spawns, this the best example.
The main difference between the old system and the system on the test center is that the amount of increase that each experimentation point gives is scaled based on the resources. Instead of the flat 7%, it will range form 0-7%. What this means is that when it used to take only5 experimenation points to go from 15% to 50%, it will now take all 10.Here is the same gun with the same resources under the new system.
- Starting damage is 30 and the experimentedmaximum damage is 100, speed is 7, HAM is 7
- Starting damage is 27 and the experimented maximum damage is 83, speed is 7.3, HAM is 7.3.
- Starting damage is 20 and the experimented maximum damage is 67, speed is 8, HAM is 8
- Starting damage is 15and the experimented maximum damage is 50, speed is8.5, HAM is 8.5
Clearly, as worse resources are used, the weapon becomes crap. What complicates this even more is the fact the SOE gates certian resource properties. Polobium (sp?) Iron has never spawned with a conductively over 100 on any server, therefore the maximum trait percentage is 69%. Normally the points not spent on damage goes to HAM, speed or accuracy. In the new system, all the points will need to be spent on damage just to get them where they used to be.
You choices are:
- Buy weapons, armor and any other craftable item you want now and pray they don't break
- Help the elite crafter fight this nerf
- Just deal with it when it comes out (if you do this, no whining about how the new weapons suck)
The end users, us, need to be aware if issues like this that will effect everyone. Sure their have been nerfs in the past, but this one takes the cake if it makes it to live. There are several threads in the armorsmith and weaponsmith forums that further explain crafting and the crafting nerf.
Let the hording begin! If they got through with this change I will create a Sh*tstorm bigger than the ATST,probot, and FWG nerf combined.
<--------------Lynch Shikrus- Prince of Pistoleers--------------->
You can turn your back on a man, but never turn your back on a drug
DiLune wrote:
Its all pretty speculative at this point. I suggest testing on TC. I know, too late if you don't have a toon set up to do so there. One of the crafters on TC is reporting he's getting nominally better results on range weapons and another is saying the same for melee. I believe they are sacrificing overall weapon quality for increased damage and speed though. But, it isn't quite the nerf you think it is. Fight it hard if you think you have to, but the devs listen a lot more to the people actually testing it on TC. If you test it on TC and then fight it...they will listen. If you speculate about the results and fight it...they will tell you that you are just speculating.
Fourcomments:
1. I don't have time to grind out another character on the test center, though this may change. If Bria test were ever up or character copy, I would log on a fiddle with it. I have a master doctor on that server that has loads of resources.
2. Weaponsmith correspondent testing on TC
Also, to explain the system in super-laymens-terms:
Take the Scout Blasters I made. Pre-patch, I used the eight bulbs or whatever and got it to 62%, then dumped the rest into Durability. That is no longer possible.
On Test, if you're experimenting on a gun, you're filling upthat whole bartrying to get it to that 62%, wasting all of your experimentation points in the process. I had the whole bar maxed out all the way to the end.Instead of it just stopping a little over half-way and then dumping off my excess experimentation points into Durability, I had used up all the experimentation points as though this was a 98% experimented item. So, quality aside, this will definitely destroy any remaining diversity between smiths in terms of catering to HAM or Range specialized weaponry. I've no idea how SEAs will come into play with this, though.
3. Read below from a test center smith:
Okay, did some math, and got some numbers. I think that this will be a little bit of a wakeup call to the folks who aren't looking into this TOO deeply thus far.
An armorsmith is crafting composite and wants to have high kinetic layers, and decent base stats. Currently, they can bump the special kinetic resist using 6-7 points to get it to an acceptable level, then spend the rest on HAM, to make it more wearable.
With the new system, to get the kinetic to the same level willl require not 7-8 points, but 9-10 points. This leaves no extra points to reduce the HAM on the armor. Okay, not a huge issue you think. Next part of the armor, making the segment. Once again, pushing up the "quality" bar of the armor, raising resists, then reducing the HAM cost once again. To get good resists, you will once again need to spend your entire pool to get the armor resists up - even if the final figure says 50%. 10 Experimentation points to hit a 50% quality on the armor. Once again no leftover points to take off the HAM cost.
Finally, with the segments made, the smith uses the segments to make the final armor section. All points once again go to reaching that target mark of 80% kinetic, and decent base. No points left over to spend on reducing HAM costs.
Being a Master Armorsmith, I can tell you just what the stats are now, and what they will be with the new changes.
The last batch of armor I made taking down stats and notes looks like this:
HIGH RESIST KINETIC GLOVES:
Current System: Base Resists: 60% Kinetic 80% HAM 67.63.70
With the new system it would look like this:
New System: Base Resists 60% Kinetic 80% HAM 116.112.119
Okay, how about LOW HAM GLOVES?
Current System: Base Resists 51% Kinetic 67% HAM 44.42.46
With the new crafting system it would look like this:
New System: Base Resists 21% Kinetic 37% HAM 44.42.46
This isn't a joke. These stats aren't plucked out of the air. This is hard solid experimented items.
Do the math, if the schematic requires resources that max out at 40% of the "total quality" you will now have tp spend 10 points to get it to that 40%!! Not 4-5 that you currently can do, and use the remainder on other things, like accuracy for weaponsmiths, HAM or Resists for Armorsmiths, Uses or Filling for Chefs, Charges or Potential for medics. Selusa, you know me, and know my work. I don't muck about, and I take crafting seriously. There are many weapons and items that require rare named resources, to go off the top of my head, I can think of the following weapons:
Scatter Pistol - required Doonium Iron, terrible conductivity, capped, will not be fixed. There goes the weapon that was already nerfed. BH's will just love their new guns at mediocre damage, and 700 condition right out of a crate, and with terrible accuracy and HAM costs to boot.
Rocket Launchers - require Iron, once again very low conductivity, current smiths are bumping damage up to what they can, and using remaining points to attempt to fix the ghastly HAM costs on these.
Vibro Knucklers - require copper, and desh copper high in SR. While the final item can use Polysteel Copper for a decent SR stat, Desh copper has a cap at around 400 it appears. Currently I make good damage and speed knucklers (2.2 speed, 37-145 damage with +21 accuracies across the board) The new system will allow the same damage, and the accuracies will go right down to base value so the final outcome for the knuckler would be 2.2 speed, 37-145 damage, +0 accuracies accross all three ranges.
FWG5 Pistol - requires 30 of 36 resources to be ferrous, and 15 to be iron. Drop the accuracy or condition right down on these once more.
Launcher Pistols - Require 88 of 98 resources to be either iron (66 units) or ferrous (22 units). See note above for FWG5.
Republic Blaster (or Modified Republic Blaster) - Using Plumbum Iron, a horrid resources for condutivity. Drop accuracy, and condition down to have the same damage output. Brand new Republisc Blasters should have around 800 condition now, and base accuracies.
E11 Rifle, Jawa Rifle, T-21 Rifle all will suffer in HAM costs, Condition or accuracy. All require rare irons capped low in stats required.
Featherweight FWG5 - requires Axidiite Iron, a resources that appears to be capped at 200 conductivity. Currently these get to about 40% damage/speed of the schematic potential, and remaining points are used in condition and HAM costs. Kiss those extra's bye...
You wanted stats? There you go. I hope this wakes up some of the other crafters and people who actually use crafted items to see what this change will do to the crafters.
I shudder to think what Chefs, Bio Engeineers and Medics will face.
4. Read below from the weaponsmith correspondant who had his post deleted:
Logix wrote:
This system, while reasonable on paper, is not a suitable fit for the game.
Smiths of all kinds depend on diversity. In a world of cookie-cutter products, you must have something that stands out. For every suit of armor, the only possibility should not be Effectiveness or Nothing. For every weapon made, the only , it should always provide as many options as possible to the crafter.
With the old system, taking another route in Experimentation did have a disadvantage, but the options were still there. With the new system, no matter how good you're making your weapons or armor as a Master, you will be wasting all of your experimentation points to max out its main quality. Since the vast majority of high-end products require specific rare resources, nine times out of ten you will never have experimentation points left over for anything else. When I used to make Republic Blasters and only use the 6 or so points to max it out, now I must use all ten. Weaponsmiths will be able to max damage and that's that. If I try to cater to Range- or HAM-specialized weaponry, the penalties for the loss of damage are even greater than they are now. Moreover, Armorsmiths have been completely deterred from specializing in low- and medium-HAM suits. It's not a viable trade-off at all, anymore.
Additionally, this sets a greater dividing line between the new Smiths and the elder Smiths. Having 10 experimentation points will no longer be the deciding factor between a "bad" and a "good smith". That bar has been raised to 12 experimentation points with this new system. Experimentation tapes are so utterly ridiculous for most to acquire that placing such a high dependency on them just isn't fair. They should be a pleasure for high-end "elite" crafters to partake in, but never a necessity for all crafters to sell quality products to their customers.
As for the Amazing Success change, I don't think it's all that it's cracked up to be. Amazing success simply raises the bar for experimentation -- Great successes become the "new" Moderate success. Instead of smiths trying to craft a schematic over and over again to get an "All-Great Success" schematic, they will craft it over and over again trying to get a "9 Great and 1 Amazing Success" schematic. So we're back to the same frustration many smiths endure: Crafting over and over trying to get that elusive "perfect" schematic. Putting a different label on it doesn't mean it's not the exact same problem. This too, places ridiculous dependency on skill tapes and things like Research Centers, because having both of those means you will net the highest likelihood of amazing successes.
In summary, I think this is a change better left unimplemented. The biggest problem many smiths face is the huge dividing gap between newer Smiths versus elder Smiths, who have the most time, money, resources, skill tapes and Research Centers. Right now, that gap already wide enough to make it immensely difficult to get your name on the market, but only time, money and resources are the factors that are required. With this change, you put a greater dependency on all of those factors and move skill tapes and Research Centers from the "optional" field into the "necessary for your business" domain. Implementing this system is taking an enormous step backwards in trying to bridge the gap and promote diversity among smiths.
Looks pretty cut and dry to me.
Actually, in extremely simple terms, what this is doing is making the resource quality "tax" the crafting process 3 times. Currently, it taxes it twice, in terms of the starting experimental value and the maximum experimental value. Now, they are going to "tax" the system again by having the resource value effect the value of each experimentation point.
That's a nerf, no two ways about it. It's a bad nerf, because of the amount of time it is going to take to get the system fully in place due to sooooo many legacy items that will be created between now and the patch.
In a very generic way, the change makes sense if you start with a clean slate. Those with more experimentation points will do better (on average) than those with less given the exact same materials and the same product. Why does this make sense? Well, compare the Master Pistoleer vs Novice Pistoleer. Give them the exact same stats, exact same pistol, exact same armor, and exact same buffs and have them fight the exact same MOB. Of course the Master Pistoleer is going to do better than the Novice Pistoleer (or even a 4-4-4-4 Pistoleer who's waiting on Apprentice XP to get master.) It would follow the same logic that a Master Crafter should fare better than the Non-Master given the same materials and desired end product.
Where that logic breaks down is in actual game play. A Novice Pistoleer can still be a productive player while leveling. There are appropriate level missions for the Novice in solo play, and the Novice will still cause damage to higher end MOBs in grouped play. The non-Master crafter will be reduced solely to a PvE crafter. Very little players will buy inferior items. The non-master is near useless to other players, and frankly, crafters are supposed to be useful to other players. By the way, you can sort of see why schematic revocation was a design early on. It was a forced way to give non-master crafters a niche in the player economy.
On yet another hand... That's already the case with crafters. Who do you go to for your medical buffs? A Master Doctor or a Non-Master? What about Entertainment buffs? Do you want to be buffed by a Tech IV dancer/musician (75% effective buff) or do you want the Master to give you the 100% buff? I won't even mention the best weapons because they don't even get the schematics until master, but do you want your Striker Pistol (for kinetic damage) to come from a Master WeaponSmith or someone who just got the schematic? So the above paragraph is already the case in game. No one wants a non-master buff, and no one wants a non-master weapon.
All that said... no one wants a nerf that affects their performance in a negative way. This will affect everyone negatively.
Randonb wrote:
"The gear on TC stinks. It doesn't have the kind ofdedicated crafters that make the top-notch items most of us are accustomed to. The resource merchants even sell sub-par resources. People are mainly there to test, not to do well. Keeping that in mind, it is difficult to accurately gauge the difference in merchandise that we will see if/when this hits live."
I do not know where you shop for gear becuase test center has gear of all types as good and in many cases better than live servers. The reason you do not see the top end resources for sale on vendors in large part is the fact that we all have 30 lots and gather our own stuff, no need to buy resources.
Took Alot
Master Doctor/Master Pistoleer on tc1
I think medics will be the only crafters to make it out relatively unscathed. I can't think of anything where I really bother to experiment in more than 1 line at a time. If I ever do it's rarely more than 1 point, and that is rare in and of itself. But this discussion is for another forum hehe.
Armorsmiths get screwed big time, BE's get screwed big time, Chef's got alot of crafting love just to get SCREWED. Weaponsmiths'... the least "screwed" of the bunch. But still without a doubt SCREWED!
"As you can see, the damage goes down as you use less perfect resouces, the HAM costs increase and the speed of the weapon can be lowered by using the leftover expermentation points from damage. Since resource #2 is closer to the actual stuff that spawns, this the best example."
Excellant example except: Damage/Speed are expiermented on the same line. Once your done with that you can not increase speed with the rest of the expierment lines.
Yeah I got speed and durablity swapped. Replace all instances of the word "speed" with "durablity". Maximum durability of 1000 if fully experimented on that trait.
- Durablity 300
- Durablity 319
- Durablity 411
- Durablity 500