Pilot Archive
Thread: Extend POB changes to heavy bombers
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Emmgel
Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:47 am
#1
For these purposes I am not going into some of the 6 months worth of loot RE jobs that are lovingly pieced together, but the bazaar-bought, widely availableitems that constitute a large part of what is flying around in non-pvp space (at least on my server). Pre-nerf etc is for those lucky enough to get/have them.
Bearing in mind the huge differentiation in mass between different levels of components, it seems to me that shields in particular seem to benefit very disproportionately.
Get a level 10 shield - non RE, possibly crafter made- and you are talking something in the region of 40-50k massfor a shield with front and back of around 2300 as a maximum. Recharge rate is around 12.The reward shield, the highest non-POB shield, is 2555. That's with, for the sake of argument, 45k mass - which is a serious chunk out of any ship mass limit.
Tonedown the tier and mass a little, sticking with crafted equipment that is available to the masses. What is available?
There are at least two shields for sale on the Flurry bazaar as I write with shield walls of 1950+ and recharge of 10. The mass on them is under 17k. There is another shield with walls of 1400, 9k mass, recharge of 8.
What does this mean? It means that an Actis, with the hitbox similar toan A-wing, has shields roughly 80% of the strength of those that are the strongest available to a krayt, a firesprayor a b-wing. Is it me or does this seem rather odd? You increase the mass by a factor of 3 or higher to get another 20% performance. How is this logical?
This very argument has been used in regard to POB ships in the proposed changes in publish 24. For the mass/hitbox penalty, youget the reward of being able to equipmuch more powerful components. This balance of penalty/performance doesnt seem to really work further down the scale however. You fly a ship with a huge hitbox, you put in heavier mass shield, but the protection from doing so just isn't that much higher.
So, what I would put forward for discussion for shield components is to increase the maximum protection in a way that is proportionate to the mass. If I put in a shield that has 50k mass, I want it to take a lot more abuse and recharge a lot faster than one that has 10k mass. I don't mean 10-20% more, I mean maybe 60% more. Let's have heavy bombers with shields of 4-5k front and back to compensate for the hitbox, not shields of 2300 compared to 1900 in a fighter with a 1k mass reactor. As it is, the ability of an Awing or, worse yet, an Actis to effectively almost one-shot a heavy bomber in pvpappears, to me at least, to beludicrous.
Emmgel.
Flurry.
Olaff421
Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:07 am
#2
I completely agree with you. I'm sure i'll get some flames, but i don't really like the one hit kills of PvP. To me it kinda takes he fun out of it. I like being able to land a few hits or having a few hits landed on me and thinking that I or the person I'm fighting had more of a chance than just scoring a lucky shot. I'm ot saying it doesn't take skill, but i just wish there was a little more to it. The fact thatyou can take pretty much any ship in the game out with one shot pretty much makes every ship the same. Why would someone want to take the time to learn how to fly a B-wing if they can get the job done in a JSF. I have a bel-22, but only fly it to finish out the squadron I'm working on at the moment, and i haven't done PvP in awhile, but i never fly it for it. But i get kinda discouraged when a ship the size of a flea can take my x-wing out in one hit. Well, I've heard ppl flame ppl for talking about PvP dmg, so there you go, flame away, but that's how i feel.
KaylBreinhar
Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:26 am
#3
If you're tired of dying in one hit, your goal should be to engineer a configuration on your ship(s) that give you greater survivability in a dogfight.
Every single one of my ships is engineered to take at least one .68x/.68x MINIMUM L8 RE hit with no component damage to either half. No exceptions, EVER.
And yes, I do test.
Reward shield not enough? Get 2k of armor underneath. 2k slabs too heavy? Go looting and find some Sub-10k ones. Not enough juice to shunt? Get a better cap.
...I dunno - maybe I have this cockiness because I PvPed in the days when one-hit really WAS enough to kill you...in the days before Cap Overload and Shunts even existed....
All I know now is given their abilities and my equipment, once I get back into the fray I'll be invincible. Only one pilot has even TOUCHED me in a PvP engagement in the past five months.
That was with Speedbird. I can't wait to show the game what Phoenix can do.
Every single one of my ships is engineered to take at least one .68x/.68x MINIMUM L8 RE hit with no component damage to either half. No exceptions, EVER.
And yes, I do test.
Reward shield not enough? Get 2k of armor underneath. 2k slabs too heavy? Go looting and find some Sub-10k ones. Not enough juice to shunt? Get a better cap.
...I dunno - maybe I have this cockiness because I PvPed in the days when one-hit really WAS enough to kill you...in the days before Cap Overload and Shunts even existed....
All I know now is given their abilities and my equipment, once I get back into the fray I'll be invincible. Only one pilot has even TOUCHED me in a PvP engagement in the past five months.
That was with Speedbird. I can't wait to show the game what Phoenix can do.
CuchulainnDarklight
Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:37 am
#4
KaylBreinhar wrote:
If you're tired of dying in one hit, your goal should be to engineer a configuration on your ship(s) that give you greater survivability in a dogfight.
Every single one of my ships is engineered to take at least one .68x/.68x MINIMUM L8 RE hit with no component damage to either half. No exceptions, EVER.
And yes, I do test.
Reward shield not enough? Get 2k of armor underneath. 2k slabs too heavy? Go looting and find some Sub-10k ones. Not enough juice to shunt? Get a better cap.
...I dunno - maybe I have this cockiness because I PvPed in the days when one-hit really WAS enough to kill you...in the days before Cap Overload and Shunts even existed....
All I know now is given their abilities and my equipment, once I get back into the fray I'll be invincible. Only one pilot has even TOUCHED me in a PvP engagement in the past five months.
That was with Speedbird. I can't wait to show the game what Phoenix can do.
my Xwing, advanced Xwing and Ywing can take 4 REed lvl 8 shots and survive with minimal component damage. Thats 2 linked JSF shots, thats all i need. I use good armour and the lowest reinforce front shield program. If they get on my tail i can take 3, if i am lucky, shots before componenet damage.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 10-01-2005 04:38 AM
Emmgel
Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:12 am
#5
Hmm, I think the point has been somewhat missed.
I'm not comparing PVP viability of chassis etc, all I am saying is that if you increase the mass of ashield by a factor of 5, the reward for taking that penalty should be greater than a 10-20% difference in shield strength.
Otherwise, since PVP appears to be the main basis for discussion, why would I bother shoving a 40k mass 2500 shield on a krayt when I can put on a 10k mass 1950 shield and 30k mass of armour and be infinitely more viable against light fighters?
High mass shields face an illogical handicap against their low mass brethren.
Emmgel
Flurry
FilanVader
Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:37 am
#6
only way to make the Y-Wing and similar more viable in PVP is change how weapons work vs the different ships. a medium bomber like a Y-Wing and to some extent the TIE-bomber for example should take a greater pounding from the same weapon that say an A-Wing or Interceptor. so if both have 2500 shields the bomber could take more hits then the fighter even if using the same deflector as the fighter is suppost to use agility to avoid hits while the bomber or fighter/bomber is less agile but built to take a pounding. to add a real world look to this, think of the Y-Wing as an A-10 and the Xwing as a Tomcat, which comes home and lands when half the wing is gone. the Y-wing, B-Wing, TIE-Bomber, Oppressor should take large punishment in PVP to make up for lack of handling.
onto weapons, maybe add a damage bonus to guns and missles mounted on bombers, its doubtfull one is going to get in behind your JSF however it should be death in a flash to fly right at one.
sadly i dont know how to honestly balance this since unless its an arranged PVP event your not going to have a balance of POBs, bombers and fighters in the fight. people will just bring whatever hits the hardest and turns the best and has the smallest hitbox.
onto weapons, maybe add a damage bonus to guns and missles mounted on bombers, its doubtfull one is going to get in behind your JSF however it should be death in a flash to fly right at one.
sadly i dont know how to honestly balance this since unless its an arranged PVP event your not going to have a balance of POBs, bombers and fighters in the fight. people will just bring whatever hits the hardest and turns the best and has the smallest hitbox.
WingZero890
Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:49 am
#7
Higher level shields and armor have always been useless (sadly). As the origional poster stated,
they simply arent worth the extra 800 points of shield for 30k mass more. As for chassis,
well thats a different argument. If it makes a difference, I want to point out that I use the
sametypes ofshield, armor and weapons in nearly all of my fighters. As in, my Opressor has
basically the same loadout as my heavy TIE except for a bigger DI, reactor, and missiles; etc etc.
Message Edited by WingZero890 on 10-01-2005 11:50 AM
Message Edited by WingZero890 on 10-01-2005 11:50 AM
wasj2004
Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:05 am
#8
My reward 2555 shield gets swaped around alot, whatever I am flying, cause its the only shield that can survive a PvP hit. What I think needs to happen is markV crafted shields need a serious hitpoint boost. The best I have seen right now is around 2200 to 2300 front and back. considering the mass of these they are pritty much worthless. Now if they had front/back hitpoints of around 4000 to 5000, the would definatly be worth the high mass. You could drop one in your heavy fighters like the rihkxryk, krayt and ywing and They would becomewhat they are supposed to be, tough ships that can take a beating. Right now they go down in the same amount of hits as a small fighter, and with there large hit boxes they really need better shields to compensate. PoBs are getting a much needed upgrade, I just hope heavy bombers dont get forgotten.
Imaridril
Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:37 am
#9
A level 10 shield can be RE'd to have slightly better protection than a level 8 reward shield, if you're patient. That being said, the devs should add a level 10 quest reward shield at some point. Giving itaround 2900 protection pre-RE would be pretty nice, and since the mass on even an uber-RE'd level 10 shield is still going to be around 45k, we wouldn't have to worry about RE'd level 10 shields showing up on a JSF or Belb22.
Also, as has been suggested, good RE'd armor can help a heavy fighter. I've got two slabs of 2600+ protection level 10 slabs, both with only 17k mass that I use on my Firespray. The other important thing is a nice capacitor for Cap to Shield Shunt. I use an RE'd level 10 cap with 1600+ energy. (3200+ energy when I run Cap Overload 4.) Being able to dump that much energy back into my shields at the push of a button has saved me many, many times in combat.
And finally, if WO3 ever gets fixed, heavy fighters will see a slight improvement, since most players will be forced to drop down to WO2.
LeaphChausew
Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:05 pm
#10
KaylBreinhar wrote:
If you're tired of dying in one hit, your goal should be to engineer a configuration on your ship(s) that give you greater survivability in a dogfight.
Every single one of my ships is engineered to take at least one .68x/.68x MINIMUM L8 RE hit with no component damage to either half. No exceptions, EVER.
And yes, I do test.
Reward shield not enough? Get 2k of armor underneath. 2k slabs too heavy? Go looting and find some Sub-10k ones. Not enough juice to shunt? Get a better cap.
...I dunno - maybe I have this cockiness because I PvPed in the days when one-hit really WAS enough to kill you...in the days before Cap Overload and Shunts even existed....
All I know now is given their abilities and my equipment, once I get back into the fray I'll be invincible. Only one pilot has even TOUCHED me in a PvP engagement in the past five months.
That was with Speedbird. I can't wait to show the game what Phoenix can do.
You and me really should duel. Shame about different servers though 
.
Also, one hit kills in pvp. I really don't see the argument. My 1800HP shield with paper thin armour will still take a couple of hits with careful shunting if I utilise front shield adjusts smartly. Along with the mantra of trying to not get hit in the firstplace this actually works. In larger engagements front adjust might not be the best idea but in those situations, pvp comes down more to situational awareness rather than 'twichy' prowess. If I can survive on SS with this strategy in an A-wing, then anyone with a JSF should be able to more easily than I and be carrying a better shield too.
I do agree though. Some sort of Elite components for bombers might work out well.
Message Edited by LeaphChausew on 10-01-2005 08:10 PM
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