Pilot Archive
Thread: POB Talk
Page 1 of 11
TomoRainer
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:26 am
#1
Preamble: a thread on POBs (portalized objects, any ship you can walk around in) sprung up on the corr forum while I was away. We've been having some pretty great discussions on them in this forum and I was thus able to put together the start of a comprehensive reply tonight, but I'd like everyone's feedback on what I've posted so far--whether it jibes with your ideas and experience, if there's anything that just seems wrong, and any suggestions of any kind you may have. Want to make sure I'm in step with the community here and not just ranting into the wind. 
I'm hoping to eventually have a full-fledged treatise the devs can look over, mainly focusing on an analysis of what's causing POBs to be underpowered, along with a number of suggestions for improvement. There's no way any one document can get into everything that could or should be done with POBs, but I'm hoping this'll end up as a solid piece of reference.
I'm particularly interested in what you all think of the third suggestion for how to improve their defenses.. been thinking on that one for a week or two and could really use some feedback on it. Anyway, without further ado:
The Problem With POBs
The major problem with POBs, as was pointed out in that post, is they just don't live up to their potential. As it stands now, they don't have much of a role in space other than as a novelty, and most of it stems from a large lack of survivability.
Much of what it takes to survive in PVE, and especially in PVP, is not the ability to take damage, but the ability to avoid it altogether. This is why light fighters are the primary PVP ships out there: they combine a small profile with extreme speed and maneuverability. That combo makes them extremely difficult to hit in PVP, to the point where fights between two skilled pilots can last for 5-15 minutes, and, ironically, renders them quite useful for taking out capital ships in PVE, where even the extreme accuracy of the NPCs have a hard time landing hits on a pilot skilled at strafing runs. The Eta-2 and Belbullab even have the ability to use shields every bit as big as a Krayt or Heavy X-Wing, nullifying one of the mitigating factors in using a heavy fighter.
But back to POBs. They're enormous targets--they're so big you can make mild evasive maneuvers even as you're strafing them with minimal loss of accuracy--and any evasive maneuvers they attempt to pull off renders their turrets useless, which should be one of their combat advantages. (Notwithstanding that "evasive maneuvers in a POB," between their size and minimal maneuverability at higher speeds, may be a contradiction in terms.)
Meanwhile, even their 3.5K HP shields, heavier armor, and more heavily armored parts only give them the ability to soak a couple more hits in PVP, which against a single starfighter translates to about .35-1.0 more seconds of survivability, or in other words nothing.
PVE is significantly more forgiving, but that can often be a lost cause against anything interesting, as POBs simply don't have the firepower to knock out enemy ships in any reasonable amount of time. For one thing, they only have two guns which aren't any better than what you can mount on a heavy fighter (or even a lighter one--my Eta-2 has an RE'd level 10 gun on it); second, they're turrets, which makes them a fair bit less accurate than pilot-controlled guns; and third, they only have 180-degree firing arcs, meaning you can, in almost all situations, only have one gun firing on a target at once.
Results: POBs can't deal enough damage to effectively take out enemy NPCs in relation to what modest extra shielding they get. And considering they have no passive ability to dodge enemy fire like an Eta-2 or even an X-Wing or Oppressor can, that extra shielding's probably being eaten up much faster anyway.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I agree completely that POBs are largely useless in combat and that kicking up their ability to soak damage--by a lot--is necessary for them to begin to live up to their potential.
However, the issue I've been circling around is that PVP and PVE are essentially different systems with different mechanics, ones that will require different solutions to set right.
For instance, let's get into some numbers. Say you give POBs shields with 20,000 HP. This looks ludicrously high out of context, but in PVP against, for example, an Eta-2 with two well-crafted level 7 guns (stats: 1500-2500 damage, .490 vs. armor/shields, .260 refire rate), each gun is going to hit shields for an average of 980 damage per hit, or 3770 per second. With two guns, they can take out a POB shield in 2.65 seconds if they hit every time, but let's be generous and say they only hit 50% of their shots, which is very conservative against a POB, and so in total, you have 5 seconds of shield survivability once a single Eta-2 is in range. Kick it up to 10 seconds of being fired upon if your armor's 20K HP, too, and then it's down to your components and you are basically toast.
Those are the numbers for a single badly-equipped Eta-2, too--a setup like mine with nice RE'd guns hitting 50% of the time would knock out 40K worth of shields and armor in 6.5 seconds of firing. A real tankbuster of a Krayt could probably kill one in 3.5 or 4 seconds.
This is ignoring the 25% damage reduction and the damage increase of WO3, but as the end result should be even deader POBs, the point should stand that you'd require a truly absurd amount of shields and armor to make POBs viable in PVP. 80K total minimum, probably, or even up to 150 or 200K.. and that strikes me as far too much for PVE. POBs do need to be the tanks of space, but it needs to be within the realm of the killable. Able to stand toe-to-toe with gunboats and Vettes for a few seconds, not minutes.
I'm hoping to eventually have a full-fledged treatise the devs can look over, mainly focusing on an analysis of what's causing POBs to be underpowered, along with a number of suggestions for improvement. There's no way any one document can get into everything that could or should be done with POBs, but I'm hoping this'll end up as a solid piece of reference.
I'm particularly interested in what you all think of the third suggestion for how to improve their defenses.. been thinking on that one for a week or two and could really use some feedback on it. Anyway, without further ado:
The major problem with POBs, as was pointed out in that post, is they just don't live up to their potential. As it stands now, they don't have much of a role in space other than as a novelty, and most of it stems from a large lack of survivability.
Much of what it takes to survive in PVE, and especially in PVP, is not the ability to take damage, but the ability to avoid it altogether. This is why light fighters are the primary PVP ships out there: they combine a small profile with extreme speed and maneuverability. That combo makes them extremely difficult to hit in PVP, to the point where fights between two skilled pilots can last for 5-15 minutes, and, ironically, renders them quite useful for taking out capital ships in PVE, where even the extreme accuracy of the NPCs have a hard time landing hits on a pilot skilled at strafing runs. The Eta-2 and Belbullab even have the ability to use shields every bit as big as a Krayt or Heavy X-Wing, nullifying one of the mitigating factors in using a heavy fighter.
But back to POBs. They're enormous targets--they're so big you can make mild evasive maneuvers even as you're strafing them with minimal loss of accuracy--and any evasive maneuvers they attempt to pull off renders their turrets useless, which should be one of their combat advantages. (Notwithstanding that "evasive maneuvers in a POB," between their size and minimal maneuverability at higher speeds, may be a contradiction in terms.)
Meanwhile, even their 3.5K HP shields, heavier armor, and more heavily armored parts only give them the ability to soak a couple more hits in PVP, which against a single starfighter translates to about .35-1.0 more seconds of survivability, or in other words nothing.
PVE is significantly more forgiving, but that can often be a lost cause against anything interesting, as POBs simply don't have the firepower to knock out enemy ships in any reasonable amount of time. For one thing, they only have two guns which aren't any better than what you can mount on a heavy fighter (or even a lighter one--my Eta-2 has an RE'd level 10 gun on it); second, they're turrets, which makes them a fair bit less accurate than pilot-controlled guns; and third, they only have 180-degree firing arcs, meaning you can, in almost all situations, only have one gun firing on a target at once.
Results: POBs can't deal enough damage to effectively take out enemy NPCs in relation to what modest extra shielding they get. And considering they have no passive ability to dodge enemy fire like an Eta-2 or even an X-Wing or Oppressor can, that extra shielding's probably being eaten up much faster anyway.
All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I agree completely that POBs are largely useless in combat and that kicking up their ability to soak damage--by a lot--is necessary for them to begin to live up to their potential.
However, the issue I've been circling around is that PVP and PVE are essentially different systems with different mechanics, ones that will require different solutions to set right.
For instance, let's get into some numbers. Say you give POBs shields with 20,000 HP. This looks ludicrously high out of context, but in PVP against, for example, an Eta-2 with two well-crafted level 7 guns (stats: 1500-2500 damage, .490 vs. armor/shields, .260 refire rate), each gun is going to hit shields for an average of 980 damage per hit, or 3770 per second. With two guns, they can take out a POB shield in 2.65 seconds if they hit every time, but let's be generous and say they only hit 50% of their shots, which is very conservative against a POB, and so in total, you have 5 seconds of shield survivability once a single Eta-2 is in range. Kick it up to 10 seconds of being fired upon if your armor's 20K HP, too, and then it's down to your components and you are basically toast.
Those are the numbers for a single badly-equipped Eta-2, too--a setup like mine with nice RE'd guns hitting 50% of the time would knock out 40K worth of shields and armor in 6.5 seconds of firing. A real tankbuster of a Krayt could probably kill one in 3.5 or 4 seconds.
This is ignoring the 25% damage reduction and the damage increase of WO3, but as the end result should be even deader POBs, the point should stand that you'd require a truly absurd amount of shields and armor to make POBs viable in PVP. 80K total minimum, probably, or even up to 150 or 200K.. and that strikes me as far too much for PVE. POBs do need to be the tanks of space, but it needs to be within the realm of the killable. Able to stand toe-to-toe with gunboats and Vettes for a few seconds, not minutes.
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 07-22-2005 03:32 AM
TomoRainer
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:27 am
#2
Reserved for a part on POB offense to be written tomorrow when I'm less tired. Should have some fun stuff in it though, heh.
All right, so go at it. We're just kicking the ol' peanut around in the corr forum right now, so I can edit and add to this stuff as feedback suggests.
All right, so go at it. We're just kicking the ol' peanut around in the corr forum right now, so I can edit and add to this stuff as feedback suggests.
Message Edited by TomoRainer on 07-22-2005 03:29 PM
OWPT
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:29 am
#3
Speed is also an issue sometimes. What I mean is speeding up and slowing down. Do you think anything could be done to slow them down marginally quicker? I have been ace for quite a while now and it is no biggie, but sometimes it would be cool to have them stop that bit quicker.
Nice to have you back!
TomoRainer
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 am
#4
I'm sure it's possible, they'd just have to up the deceleration rates a bit.
Honestly, accel/decel speed on POBs isn't really something I've thought about much. Do you think it's currently underpowered? Got any analysis in you? If not, just going into a lot of detail on your experiences with it could help us think about where exactly the problems are coming up and what, if anything, we can suggest to do about it.
Honestly, accel/decel speed on POBs isn't really something I've thought about much. Do you think it's currently underpowered? Got any analysis in you? If not, just going into a lot of detail on your experiences with it could help us think about where exactly the problems are coming up and what, if anything, we can suggest to do about it.
OWPT
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 am
#5
I do like your last suggestion regarding players running around inside repairing components. This though needs to be balanced so that the repairs at least last for a while, and a re not negated in the next few seconds of either PvP or PvE.
What about increasing the speed of DI up marginally. W to C 3 is effective, but slow speeds make it an unusable option most of the time. BTW I have a looted 9.1 speed DI on either my VT or NC. But it still is slow... lol
Nice to have you back!
Just_Bri
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:45 am
#6
For targets that large, evasion is at best a lost cause. Any solutions should opperate on the assumption that the opposition will hit every time. Otehr than that, a nice start.
Another thought just occured to me:
The POBs should have a new component type available for them called an astromech droid bay. When equipped these would show inside the ship as a container with the graphic of something like what you see in Epp1 where that gungan interacts with the droids. Passengers can drop a droid deed into these.
Droid bays that have a droid deed in them generate the droid. The person in the ops chair would be able to issue orders to these droids to repair components. that way he has more to do during a fight than cap to shield shunt.
On the starship terminals, these should be found under a new catagory: misc equipment. A POB should be able to equip as many of these as you are willing to devote mass and reactor power to.
Another thought just occured to me:
The POBs should have a new component type available for them called an astromech droid bay. When equipped these would show inside the ship as a container with the graphic of something like what you see in Epp1 where that gungan interacts with the droids. Passengers can drop a droid deed into these.
Droid bays that have a droid deed in them generate the droid. The person in the ops chair would be able to issue orders to these droids to repair components. that way he has more to do during a fight than cap to shield shunt.
On the starship terminals, these should be found under a new catagory: misc equipment. A POB should be able to equip as many of these as you are willing to devote mass and reactor power to.
Message Edited by Just_Bri on 07-22-2005 06:51 AM
Emmgel
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:53 am
#7
Count on 90% accuracy + imo - it really is hard to miss a YT, especially given their minimal speed change options other than booster.
Emmgel
Flurry
OWPT
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:54 am
#8
Regarding the speed issue. In PvE it would allow us to be more manouverable. I am not speaking about allowing us to operate like starfighters of course. But when moving in and out of the target range, it might be nice to zoom up and slow down to half speed blast away and zoom out, without having to use the thrusters all the time.
In PVP, we just (and rightly so), cannot match the turning arc of the smaller ships, and when we slow down to half speed we have to judge the time to decrease throttle and then blast away again...inertia
Hmm I suppose that in asking, I am really answering my question. Thses are larger ships and should I suppose take longer to slow down and speed up. It is just that going from 1600 down to zero or half speed takes forever sometimes lol.
Granted too that most of us are using starfighter engines in our POB ships. I have yet to try the POB engine in one of my POB ships.
Maybe someone from the community can comment on the POB engine? I do know that the POB booster while not having as much boost as my starfighter booster, is incredibly fast.
Tomo on that point the components are getting better and better regarding POB equipment. Any thoughts on where this may be leading? Maybe there is already a fix afoot for "strengthening" the POB ships lol.
OWPT
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:57 am
#9
Just_Bri wrote:
For targets that large, evasion is at best a lost cause. Any solutions should opperate on the assumption that the opposition will hit every time. Otehr than that, a nice start.
Another thought just occured to me:
The POBs should have a new component type available for them called an astromech droid bay. When equipped these would show inside the ship as a container with the graphic of something like what you see in Epp1 where that gungan interacts with the droids. Passengers can drop a droid deed into these.
Droid bays that have a droid deed in them generate the droid. The person in the ops chair would be able to issue orders to these droids to repair components. that way he has more to do during a fight than cap to shield shunt.
On the starship terminals, these should be found under a new catagory: misc equipment. A POB should be able to equip as many of these as you are willing to devote mass and reactor power to.
Message Edited by Just_Bri on 07-22-2005 06:51 AM
Yes this is an awesome suggestion. Plus it would make a certain reliance on our DE friends.
Tomo please discuss this point if you think it worth it.
Just_Bri
Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:58 am
#10
Some more thoughts...
I strongly believe that no matter what adjustments are made, a POB will always be second class in combat to a single seat fighter. Different uses for these ships should be found.
Some ideas that come to mind:
Smuggler content. The smugglers have been waiting long enough for it.
Landing on the ground: If you like, require a arch built structure devoted to the ship to land on, a landing pad. You should be able to simply walk up the boarding ramp on one of these ships with your friends and launch. Jumping through hoops at the starship terminals is not contripbuting to the popularity.
Connecting in space: Two ships should be able to mate up side by side and you should be able to walk from one to the other. For ships that have hatches on both sides you should be able to make a string of these.
I realize that these proposals will take a massive coding effort to impliment, so there is no need to tell me that these proposals are not economical. However, there isn't a real economical solution to the problem that I believe will work.
I strongly believe that no matter what adjustments are made, a POB will always be second class in combat to a single seat fighter. Different uses for these ships should be found.
Some ideas that come to mind:
Smuggler content. The smugglers have been waiting long enough for it.
Landing on the ground: If you like, require a arch built structure devoted to the ship to land on, a landing pad. You should be able to simply walk up the boarding ramp on one of these ships with your friends and launch. Jumping through hoops at the starship terminals is not contripbuting to the popularity.
Connecting in space: Two ships should be able to mate up side by side and you should be able to walk from one to the other. For ships that have hatches on both sides you should be able to make a string of these.
I realize that these proposals will take a massive coding effort to impliment, so there is no need to tell me that these proposals are not economical. However, there isn't a real economical solution to the problem that I believe will work.
TomoRainer
Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:10 am
#11
I don't really care if an idea would be hard to code, that's not our problem. And the role of POBs definitely deserves its own segment--gonna get into that some in the offense post, but stuff like smuggling missions, docking in space, etc. is a really good one, if by necessity less concrete than the combat-related stuff.
That repair droid idea's pretty great. Might have to add some conditions to it, such that it doesn't repair as well as a human would, and requiring repair kits, but it'd add a very nice element for DEs and keep a half-crewed ship viable, if not as much as a POB with a full complement of people.
That repair droid idea's pretty great. Might have to add some conditions to it, such that it doesn't repair as well as a human would, and requiring repair kits, but it'd add a very nice element for DEs and keep a half-crewed ship viable, if not as much as a POB with a full complement of people.
OWPT
Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:11 am
#12
Tomo,
I know we are booting around ideas here about POB, but one thing that I would really love to see is the ability to dock with our friends in space. If for example we wanted some more peeps on board instead of landing, taking off and re running chip commands, which lest face it can take a while, how much better would it be if they could simply fly up to us and "appear" in our ship
One ship at a time, nothing ridiculous or anything like that, although the ability to dock with another POB ship might be considered quite cool, especially if the are of the opposite faction....
Boarding hmmm that could be quite novel. You need to get them down to disabled status, when you get the option to board them....
And speaking of which, what about that option for POB...not being to destroy a POB ship in PVP but only being able to disable them, then they either have to use the escape pods or risk being boarded! It would be like base take downs in space....
ValiantHalibut
Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:29 am
#13
Nice to get involved in one of these threads on the ground floor, so to speak.
As I started reading your original post I was already planning on suggesting what, essentially, you suggested as point 3. Thanks for saving me the time
In all seriousness, I really feel that a system like that which uses the repair crew to good effect in keeping the ship flyable would be fantastic - not only would it add to the fun while on-board, but it would go a good way towards making these ships viable in all sorts of situations. Hell, one of the most entertaining experiences aboard my ship was a failed smuggling run - we hypered into the Lok system at the exact coordinates of the overt Imps who were patrolling for us. Of course my poor YT got blasted, but the Imps where attempting to capture rather then destroy. It led to a frantic few minutes of running about the ship (we were under-manned that day) and trying to get all the components up and running so we could at least attempt to get away. Didn't work, in the end, but it was great to try. If that feeling could be added to "normal" PvP combat or high-end PvE I would be very happy.
A fanciful, unlikely solution would be this: a proper engineers station. As it is at the moment, there's an unlucky soul who doesn't do much on board other then occasional repairs if things go badly enough to warrant them. It's a thankless position and it's rare that I take my ship up with a reliable repairman on board. Instead, though, if the POB ships had a proper engineer station from which they could, for example, effect the reactor output to various systems or focus shield strength then they would not only be more important, but they would have a more enjoyable position as well.
Also, as a part of flying the ship the engineer could work to keep things "tuned." Say, for example on a large, POB ship the components aren't as refined as they are in the smaller fighters. These things are designed for transport more then combat. They'll work forever stock, but they're not going to punch out as much power. They would work at, say, 90% by default. An on-board engineer could have a mini-game associated with some of the components that keeps them tuned and working at 100% or higher. I could imagine biting off more then I could chew and yelling back to my engineer to transfer power to the engine and then push her to 120% overload. In battle a good engineer would have to know what components to focus on in order to keep everything working smoothly - sure you can focus on the weapons and the shields, but if you neglect that capacitor you're in trouble. And what if the ops needs to hit a few shield shunts? Better keep that cap and the DI running hot so you've got the power. It would just add a lot of options, I think.
Looking at it from a psychological perspective, the gamers that you want to entice into those roles are the medics and support classes - the players who enjoy keeping you alive more then ending the enemy's life. I've got my niche - I LOVE flying those beasts. I've got gunners (more then I know what to do with, sometimes) who have their niche. I've even got first officers and engineers who know what they want but are desperatly looking for that niche. That's who you need to court with any system you present.
Also, as brief aside - I managed to take down the ISD in my YT with a solid crew. Things got pretty hairy when my repairman decided that the reactor (which was overloaded to level 4) needed some fixing mid-run. Disabled just about everything but I managed to limp her away, repair all the components, reset the overloads, fly her back in and blow that ISD.
As I started reading your original post I was already planning on suggesting what, essentially, you suggested as point 3. Thanks for saving me the time
In all seriousness, I really feel that a system like that which uses the repair crew to good effect in keeping the ship flyable would be fantastic - not only would it add to the fun while on-board, but it would go a good way towards making these ships viable in all sorts of situations. Hell, one of the most entertaining experiences aboard my ship was a failed smuggling run - we hypered into the Lok system at the exact coordinates of the overt Imps who were patrolling for us. Of course my poor YT got blasted, but the Imps where attempting to capture rather then destroy. It led to a frantic few minutes of running about the ship (we were under-manned that day) and trying to get all the components up and running so we could at least attempt to get away. Didn't work, in the end, but it was great to try. If that feeling could be added to "normal" PvP combat or high-end PvE I would be very happy.
A fanciful, unlikely solution would be this: a proper engineers station. As it is at the moment, there's an unlucky soul who doesn't do much on board other then occasional repairs if things go badly enough to warrant them. It's a thankless position and it's rare that I take my ship up with a reliable repairman on board. Instead, though, if the POB ships had a proper engineer station from which they could, for example, effect the reactor output to various systems or focus shield strength then they would not only be more important, but they would have a more enjoyable position as well.
Also, as a part of flying the ship the engineer could work to keep things "tuned." Say, for example on a large, POB ship the components aren't as refined as they are in the smaller fighters. These things are designed for transport more then combat. They'll work forever stock, but they're not going to punch out as much power. They would work at, say, 90% by default. An on-board engineer could have a mini-game associated with some of the components that keeps them tuned and working at 100% or higher. I could imagine biting off more then I could chew and yelling back to my engineer to transfer power to the engine and then push her to 120% overload. In battle a good engineer would have to know what components to focus on in order to keep everything working smoothly - sure you can focus on the weapons and the shields, but if you neglect that capacitor you're in trouble. And what if the ops needs to hit a few shield shunts? Better keep that cap and the DI running hot so you've got the power. It would just add a lot of options, I think.
Looking at it from a psychological perspective, the gamers that you want to entice into those roles are the medics and support classes - the players who enjoy keeping you alive more then ending the enemy's life. I've got my niche - I LOVE flying those beasts. I've got gunners (more then I know what to do with, sometimes) who have their niche. I've even got first officers and engineers who know what they want but are desperatly looking for that niche. That's who you need to court with any system you present.
Also, as brief aside - I managed to take down the ISD in my YT with a solid crew. Things got pretty hairy when my repairman decided that the reactor (which was overloaded to level 4) needed some fixing mid-run. Disabled just about everything but I managed to limp her away, repair all the components, reset the overloads, fly her back in and blow that ISD.
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