Pilot Archive
Thread: PvP/GCW: What makes space warrent a different system?
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KaiRan
Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:34 am
#1
After a little PvP in Kessel last night ( ...would have gotten away if the damn Hyperspace didnt stop me dead in my tracks for 10 seconds!), and subsequent decay of my components, I got to thinking about the changes we've had on the ground for PvP. I got to the point where I couldnt understand why all the reasons they were applied on the ground game wouldnt apply in space.
Damage reduction
Decayless PvP death (global)
Combatant PvE-only GCW
What make space combatants so different that 1) they should be able to kill eachother in a few quick shots, like PvP pre-dmg reduction, 2) only specific sectors remain non-decay, like the old battlefields, 4) GCW NPCs cause decay upon illing you (unlike ground), and 3) GCW participants should be forced to PvP, like pre GCW revamp.
Werent all those things changed on the ground for valid reasons that still apply in space?
Rowgue
Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:50 am
#2
No because the GCW will never be affected by anything that happens in space, so there's no reason to assume the rules would be changed there to follow the ground. The only real reason to even go to space for anything that remotely relates to the GCW is for the people that use Deep Space as a faction farm. The only place you really run the risk of being killed by factioned NPC's anyway is Deep Space, and there is no decay there. If you are constantly being wiped out by factioned NPC's outside of Deep Space then you either need a better ship, some better components, or more practice.
KaiRan
Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:58 am
#3
The Deep Space GCW only concepthas three major flaws: 1) No decayless GCW overt content for low or mid level pilots- only masters. 2) The sheer volume of ships and projectiles/bolts is too much for many low to mid level systems, resulting in a vast number of players unable to regularly play there due to lag issues, and 3) no risk-free PvP for those who need it most:non-masters.
Message Edited by KaiRan on 03-03-2005 12:59 PM
Ducimus
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:18 pm
#4
Risk VS reward is my answer.
You can make faction points hand over fist in space. On ground you make an average of 15 fps per kill on just about every type of factioned NPC (or so im told).
In space you make 30, 40, 50, 59, 192 faction points per kill, and you can make these kills quickly. Its not uncommon to make about 4K to 6K to 8K faction points in a 20-30 min game session. This compared to the ground is a very rich reward, and it should have its risks. Remove the risk then they should nerf the reward to parrell the ground.
Oh, and space DOES effect the GCW on the ground by virtue of it being a major supply source for FPs. more FPs = more bases = faction having more sway then the other.
As for the detractors listed on deep space, sounds like all your really complaning about is having to master to be able to access what is arguably the best faction farm in the game. Again, to word it differently , challenge vs reward.
You can make faction points hand over fist in space. On ground you make an average of 15 fps per kill on just about every type of factioned NPC (or so im told).
In space you make 30, 40, 50, 59, 192 faction points per kill, and you can make these kills quickly. Its not uncommon to make about 4K to 6K to 8K faction points in a 20-30 min game session. This compared to the ground is a very rich reward, and it should have its risks. Remove the risk then they should nerf the reward to parrell the ground.
Oh, and space DOES effect the GCW on the ground by virtue of it being a major supply source for FPs. more FPs = more bases = faction having more sway then the other.
As for the detractors listed on deep space, sounds like all your really complaning about is having to master to be able to access what is arguably the best faction farm in the game. Again, to word it differently , challenge vs reward.
KaiRan
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:43 pm
#5
Ducimus wrote:
sounds like all your really complaning about is having to master to be able to access what is arguably the best faction farm in the game.
As a master pilot, I could care less personally, but I have friends who would love to PvP or PvE overt with no risk who havent mastered.
My complaint it simple: I must PvP to participate overt in space. This is "forced" PvP, and while there are dozens of arguments why the rewards v risk/challange stand as they are, all have already been rejected by SOE regarding the ground game, andchanges have taken place in favor of those, like myself, who have little or no wish to participate in PvP. If I wanted greater risks I would take on larger targets, capitol ships exist and even the Star Destroyer has been soloed- there are greater risks available to me in space GCW.
To the argument for greater challange, I ask, what is so challenging about a battle that is often over by the time the 3rd or 4th volley is landed? To my eyes, that is not challange, that is pure risk, with the only skill placed in one's ability to spam or macro "find nearest player foe" first. I dont say this on an unfounded front, either. The potential arguments regarding this were all debunked when SOE chose to include a huge damage reduction in ground PvP.
To me, this game holds a conflicting pair of philosophies on PvP. The ground Philosophy is now one of *no* loss of content whatsoever for non-PvPers, a feeling that decay is a means forgrief and has therefore been removed from PvP death. Space takes nearly a 180 degree turn on these.
Ducimus
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:55 pm
#6
My stance is this.
So long as space rewards faction in the amount it does, there needs to be risk involved. When you look at the game as a whole, you now have the option to earn FP without forced PvP, in total saftey. If your unwilling to take that risk for the greater reward then don't go overt. No one is forcing you to PvP to earn faction points in SWG anymore, plain and simple.
That said, SOE makes the space like the ground game, I have no problem with it as long as they scale down the FP rewards accordingly as large scale factional point rewards are no longer merited.
So long as space rewards faction in the amount it does, there needs to be risk involved. When you look at the game as a whole, you now have the option to earn FP without forced PvP, in total saftey. If your unwilling to take that risk for the greater reward then don't go overt. No one is forcing you to PvP to earn faction points in SWG anymore, plain and simple.
That said, SOE makes the space like the ground game, I have no problem with it as long as they scale down the FP rewards accordingly as large scale factional point rewards are no longer merited.
MonsofoLexius
Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:58 pm
#7
KaiRan wrote:
My complaint it simple: I must PvP to participate overt in space.
Not to disagree totally with you, but I just wanted to point out......
- Ground:
- Neutral/On-leave - Can not attack Factional NPC's or Players
- Combatant - Can attack factional NPC's but not players
- Special Forces - Attack all
- Space:
- (no real "onleave" as you are attacked by all sorts of stuff in space)
- In-space - Can attack factional NPC's but not players
- In-space + Overt - Attack all
So if you take faction points out of the discussion for a bit, they are very similar.....
MonsofoLexius
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:01 pm
#8
KaiRan wrote:
As a master pilot, I could care less personally, but I have friends who would love to PvP or PvE overt with no risk who havent mastered.
No this is a seperate issue in my mind, and I agree. Don't know what to do about it other then add a 3rd to Kessel and Deep Space. An "everyone" can get into, no decay, not many NPC's but lots of astroids and cool places.
Ducimus
Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:07 pm
#9
Idea just hit me.
First, i think the whole issue is really About FP. Its really intertwined. Why go overt in the first place unless your looking to fight someone? ( maybe im just too 2D in thinking *shrug*)
What if they made:
Non overt = FP reward same as ground
Overt = current FP reward that exist in space now
Of course i dont see deepspace changing, and acutaly that would remove the hassel of having to go overt before enter deepspace to begin with.
Of course this leads me to the thought that this will confine PvP to 1 sector, which in my minds puts more emphasis on SOE redoing the master mission and restoring Kessel to its orginal design. Again, Kessel Risk vs reward on those teir 5 mobs. I find it no coincidence that the only two sectors that spawn nothing but teir5s are PvP zones. I can't beleive im parroting risk vs reward so much but in JTL's case i dont see how you can't.
First, i think the whole issue is really About FP. Its really intertwined. Why go overt in the first place unless your looking to fight someone? ( maybe im just too 2D in thinking *shrug*)
What if they made:
Non overt = FP reward same as ground
Overt = current FP reward that exist in space now
Of course i dont see deepspace changing, and acutaly that would remove the hassel of having to go overt before enter deepspace to begin with.
Of course this leads me to the thought that this will confine PvP to 1 sector, which in my minds puts more emphasis on SOE redoing the master mission and restoring Kessel to its orginal design. Again, Kessel Risk vs reward on those teir 5 mobs. I find it no coincidence that the only two sectors that spawn nothing but teir5s are PvP zones. I can't beleive im parroting risk vs reward so much but in JTL's case i dont see how you can't.
KaiRan
Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:59 pm
#10
Both of you present very strong cases.
I must think about this further... I must say a reduction in gains for PvE only overt, say 50%? 30? makes for a good balancing point...
...hmmm...
*wanders off*
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