Pilot Archive
Thread: What ever happend to Capitol ships?
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DigitalOne
Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:34 pm
#1
I really dont like the way JTL came out, its very fun, and always a pleasure when taking a break of the ground game. But like the ground game, JTL seems poorly organized and incomplete. I could go ahead and state all the things i dont like, but i dont want to turn this into a complaint fest. Instead ill focus on one aspect that i think is clearly missing. It's probably been brought up before, i ran a search on it, but couldnt find anything about it, so altough it may be a repeat issue, just take it as an oppotunity to further the discourse.
Capitol ships. Where are they? Of course theres a Star destroyer, a corvette, and that space station, but thier only good for shooting up. What I think is cool about this game, is the potential to organize and coordinate massive confrontations between players. Right now the tools dont really exist to call players togeather and orchastrate large cinematic battles, which i would like to see happen. The indevidual game is the basic unit with which people work with these days, since th ability to solo in this game is cake, the entire market and economy are focused on catering to the needs of one person against whatever they may face. With this philosphy in mind the Galactic civial war, and latently most high end content is pretty much doomed to mundane skirmishes and zerg runs.
I think that in the future alot of content should be added to help orchistate large scale warefare both on ground and in space. Aside from solid content, orginiaztion tools, for example mailing tools, squadren and military groups symilar to the way guilds work, but allow guilded people to remain with one another, and allow organized cooperation between guilds. An ellected comanderwould have the ability to send messages, manage a callender, send emails, which will help to conduct raids and put togeather raid groups.
I have alot of ideas for the ground game, but this is not the place, so ill focus on the space game.
Like the titel assumes, id like to see the introduction of capitol ships. These would be massive multiplayer ships requireing a large crew to man and utilize. The construction of these ships should require the co-operation of many crafting classes and massive quantities of resources. The schematics for these ships and thier subcomponents, and thier subsystems should be buyable though faction points from recruiters. Following construction of the subsytems from the diverse crafters, (tubrolazer turretsfrom WS, armor panals AS, Superstructure modules Arch, and computers, terminals, nav computers etc DE.) a shipwright can then perform a final assembly, creating a deed.The Finalproduct will then be equipable with weapons etc, like normal fighters. The Shields, engines, and reactor would be specially built also from faction perk schematics.
There will be 3 teirs of capitol ships, corvettes, frigates, and cruisers. A pilot who has mastered 3 squadrens will recive an extra ship slot for a corvette, one who has completed 6 aces would have that slot upgraded to frigate capable, and one who has completed all 9, cruiser capable. They would be able to deed the ship within thier datapad, and re-deed it accordingly when they retire. (a super star destroyer would be to big, and although cool wouldnt fit in this system,and would throw off the ballance, that and they were extremly rare at this time.
These ships will require atleast 20 people to use (a full group) each occupying a set station (turrets, helmsmen, capitan, afew engineers etc). Cruisers will also be able to dock 3 fighters which can be accessed and deployed from within the ship. Fighters can also land on this ship to have repairs done.The ship would be multiplayer, people could run around within it much like the model of our current multiplayer ships. It dosent have to be as big as the dungeon vette, or upcoming dungeon SD, simply an abriviated version would do, but large enough to make it impressive.
The helmsman would pilot the ship, which should perfom accordingly, the captain should issue commands and orders, he should have a special chair that would give him access to capitol ship commands, which can later be fleshed out.
There should also be more unpopulated deep space zones type zones, simply carbon copies of the existing deep space, in order to have an expanded battleground for conflicts.
Maybe (this sounds cool, but may not be feasible). That guilds can buy an instance (with faction points, prestige exp, or just plain cash ) of deepspace that would come equiped with a space station that they would have to defend. So that this type of warfare actualy has a purpose.
Im not sure what should happen when a capitol ship is destroyed, should it either be permanently destroyed which would mean that the guild, or squadren would have to start from scratch to construct a new one, or have them simply take damage which can be repaired like starfighters?
My goal is to see massive armadas duke it out with each other a la RotJ. Right now space is just a diversion from the ground game, would definatly like to see some meaninfull content added.
Thunderbyte
Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:10 pm
#2
I'd like to say that most of what you suggested sounds great for the most part, but don't expect to see these features in the game anytime soon. Personally, I think JTL is a great expansion to the game, and spend most of my time in space.
JTL is actually a very organized and balanced expansion from a game mechanics point of view. Given that you have many sides to choose from (imperial, rebel, and nuetral), many ships to choose from, and an infinate (relatively) number of ways to customize your ships...there's no advantage one way or the other for any given faction. The crafting aspect of the game is as close to perfect as I can imagine, giving advantages to good crafters as well as giving advantages to good pilots who seek out the ultimate loot. And on top of that, no matter how good your ship is, you still have to fly it well in pvp to win. I could go on and on about this system, but I've done it before and can supply links for anyone who cares.
I think what most peoples problem with JTL is is the appearance of lack of content. Honestly, JTL is very different from the ground game and finding the coolest places to fight can be difficult. I know when I first started flying back in JTL Beta, I was so confused with the whole thing and didn't know how to feel about it. Believe me though, there are things to do in space. And also if you don't know anyone who flys or don't look for other people to group with, then you might not get the most out of JTL. As will all MMORPGs you should be able to solo some things, but if you never get out there with the groups you'll never see the whole dynamics of the system.
Touching back on your original post: The devs told us long before beta that there probably wouldn't be any player capitol ships. Personally, I'm glad of this because it allowed them to focus more on individual flying. If you're looking for a big ship experience though you should try some of the multiplayer ships, they can be very powerfull and to maximize the usefullness of a multiplayer ship in combat you really do need a decent sized skilled group for piloting, repairing, supervising, and healing wounds (from what I've been told)
I think you should keep posting your ideas though, believe it or not the developers really do want to make the game that we all want to play, as with anything else with development it takes time.
DigitalOne
Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:15 pm
#3
I know exactly what your saying, many aspects of this game, especially crafting, work beuatifully, and i know content is out there, otherwise i wouldnt be playing this game, especialy not after nearly 2 years.
However, content dosent hurt, and i like playing with ideas, and see what people like. I really like how current multiplayer ships work, and i would just like to see that expanded. And if we are going to expand that, have tools available to make it easier.
I know im probably never going to see capitol ships, if the devs saw this today, and announced tomorrow that they will infact work on multiplayer ships, which is highly unlikely, we might just see them some time next year. So im not expecting this around the corner.
I think its just my interpretation, i see both space and the gound game as works in progress. I wouldntreally call either of them complete, enough to keep myattention for now, butthere is undeniable potentialfor content that deserves to be implemented.
alyris
Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:16 pm
#4
I personally don't care for player capital ships, and I'm not sure how many people would actually go along with the idea. But, having said that, it certainly would bring alot to the game, if it were to be put in.
I used to play XvT (actually all the Star Wars space sims) alot, and I had assumed that JTL would include more "raid" type encounters. I'm not sure how much focus JTL will get in the future, it almost seems to me, that they released it becasue they had said they would. Maybe I'm wrong, and I realize they have alot on thier plate, with the GCW and the CU, but it seems that space is "done". One thing that would help, is group missions, where the group has to complete a task, for a credit reward, and maybe even a faction reward as well.
Kirsha - Kettemoor
MWJ
Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:51 pm
#5
Capital ships require hundreds of crew to run properly. I would not want to see a player run one. Ever.
That said, I want more capital ships in the game, for scenery, convoys, mission targets, defend against in missions, ect. Considering that this is roughly pre ESB, heres what we should be seeing in addition o what we have now.
Imperial:
Victory Star Destroyer
Acclimator Troopships (use for troopships)
Carrack cruisers
Lancer Frigates
Dreadnaught heavy cruiser
Guardian patrol ship
IPV-4 System Patrol Craft
Nebulon-B2 Modified Frigate
Interdictor Cruiser
Rebel:
Mon Calamari Cruisers (very rare)
Nebulon-B Frigates
Corellian Gunships
Assault Frigates
Neutral:
Marauder Corvettes
Freighters:
Buly Freighters
Modular Conveyers
Container Transports
Mobequet Transports
Xiyitar Transport
Heavy Lifter
Cargo Ferry
Escort Transport
Light craft:
Sentinal Landing ships
AT-AT barges
YT-2000
YT-2400
Escort Shuttle
Stormtrooper Transport
Fighters:
N-1 (For RSF only)
Cloakshape fighter
T-wing
Supa Fighter (Black Sun only)
Uglies
Preybird
That said, I want more capital ships in the game, for scenery, convoys, mission targets, defend against in missions, ect. Considering that this is roughly pre ESB, heres what we should be seeing in addition o what we have now.
Imperial:
Victory Star Destroyer
Acclimator Troopships (use for troopships)
Carrack cruisers
Lancer Frigates
Dreadnaught heavy cruiser
Guardian patrol ship
IPV-4 System Patrol Craft
Nebulon-B2 Modified Frigate
Interdictor Cruiser
Rebel:
Mon Calamari Cruisers (very rare)
Nebulon-B Frigates
Corellian Gunships
Assault Frigates
Neutral:
Marauder Corvettes
Freighters:
Buly Freighters
Modular Conveyers
Container Transports
Mobequet Transports
Xiyitar Transport
Heavy Lifter
Cargo Ferry
Escort Transport
Light craft:
Sentinal Landing ships
AT-AT barges
YT-2000
YT-2400
Escort Shuttle
Stormtrooper Transport
Fighters:
N-1 (For RSF only)
Cloakshape fighter
T-wing
Supa Fighter (Black Sun only)
Uglies
Preybird
Thunderbyte
Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:59 pm
#6
Ah, I think I see what you mean a little clearer. I agree that JTL is only a starting point for what can be done for this game in space, I think I was just arguing that JTL was a pretty good starting point in my opinion. I've done my fair share of game development, nothing on this scale of course, so I'm usually a little more forgiving than most people when the devs don't want to say "We'll be doing this" or "We won'tbe doing that", but I've followed this game for a long time and am pretty confident that they have alot more planned for both ground and space.
I think one of the most overlooked aspects of development from a consumer point of view is the incredible amount of time it takes to make just one change in a program. Even for the people who wrote the code it can take forever to identify where everything needs to be changed or re-written, even in the cleanest most well organized projects. Once that's completed, there's usually a sophisticated system of checking in the change, doing internal QA, documenting the change, and then HEAVY HEAVY testing. More often than not that one small change has broken something else, and despite what some consumers expect from a software vendor, these things happen to everybody.
It's really quite remarkable how these MMOs of today can develop a system that can be changed in a matter of weeks (for small changes anyway).
ACK...I'm getting so off topic.
I hear ya man, I just wouldn't worry about playercapitol ships atm, I'm sure we'll see them in game eventually, perhaps as a future expansion or something.
Saabotage
Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:43 am
#7
MWJ wrote:
Capital ships require hundreds of crew to run properly. I would not want to see a player run one. Ever.
That said, I want more capital ships in the game, for scenery, convoys, mission targets, defend against in missions, ect. Considering that this is roughly pre ESB, heres what we should be seeing in addition o what we have now.
Imperial:
Victory Star Destroyer
Acclimator Troopships (use for troopships)
Carrack cruisers
Lancer Frigates
Dreadnaught heavy cruiser
Guardian patrol ship
IPV-4 System Patrol Craft
Nebulon-B2 Modified Frigate
Interdictor Cruiser
Rebel:
Mon Calamari Cruisers (very rare)
Nebulon-B Frigates
Corellian Gunships
Assault Frigates
Neutral:
Marauder Corvettes
Freighters:
Buly Freighters
Modular Conveyers
Container Transports
Mobequet Transports
Xiyitar Transport
Heavy Lifter
Cargo Ferry
Escort Transport
Light craft:
Sentinal Landing ships
AT-AT barges
YT-2000
YT-2400
Escort Shuttle
Stormtrooper Transport
Fighters:
N-1 (For RSF only)
Cloakshape fighter
T-wing
Supa Fighter (Black Sun only)
Uglies
Preybird
They could be controled mostly by NPCs! just a crew of maybe 20 or 30 nessesary! I think the number of them shouldbe limited maybe 2 for each side. Also I would like to see the ability to board multiplayer craft and take them over. It might be a pain in the butt to lose your nova or decimator. But it would be cool as a Rebel to own a yt, ora decimator! Maybe a quest where you sneak in and steal one!
i think the overall idea of Capitol ships might be cool in a limited fashion. It would be something cool for high ranking rebs and imps to aspire too!
Also I would really love some twich based integration on the ground game! Like for instance At-Sts not being little long lost pets following you around everywhere but something you get into a pilot around and man the turret. (maybe a crew for At-Ats)
I WOULD LOVE SOME ATMOSHPEREIC FLIGHT AND COMBAT! AND BEING ABLE TO LAND MY NOVA ON THE GROUND WOULD ALSO BE VERY VERY COOL!
lund0529
Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:32 am
#8
Maybe they can start small and have capitol ships as part of a space-based battlefield that a player can elect to be a part of? Then instead of having to own and maintain all the parts, a player could just show up and be a part of the scenario.
That way they don't have to come up with a whole system of ownership, continuity, balance, components, etc.
Hey look, it's UberLeetDood in the "SS Badazz Mofo" Stardestroyer camping the rebel station in Dantooine... again...
You put a person (real, or computer controlled) at each turret and create a story arc around it. Players in fighters and/or NPC ships contribute to the battle. You /comm to it like you would a space station, and "land" to come aboard. Once there, you'd be in a scenario similar to the Corvette ground-based missions, and could go to any of several stations.
Capitol ships would be really cool to independantly own and operate, but they'd be tough to implement under the current system.
That way they don't have to come up with a whole system of ownership, continuity, balance, components, etc.
Hey look, it's UberLeetDood in the "SS Badazz Mofo" Stardestroyer camping the rebel station in Dantooine... again...
You put a person (real, or computer controlled) at each turret and create a story arc around it. Players in fighters and/or NPC ships contribute to the battle. You /comm to it like you would a space station, and "land" to come aboard. Once there, you'd be in a scenario similar to the Corvette ground-based missions, and could go to any of several stations.
Capitol ships would be really cool to independantly own and operate, but they'd be tough to implement under the current system.
sumaron
Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:48 am
#9
Interesting notion i must say, but if capitol ships aren't an option, how about this.......
During a future expansion, a new type of ship could be implemented deemed -- Repair ship --
where a 'repair ship' could be piloted by no less than 4 to 6 people. You'd be required to dock with said ship and only so many repair bays could be present, say up to 4 fighter class and 2 for the rest of the big boy's. And instead of having an instant fix like you'd have at a space station, you'd be on a timer. What would also be neat here is a cost factor, ie.. taking resources, in bulk, and adding them into your 'cargo hold' so to speak or into your ship and for every repair, your aluminum - steel - coper, etc... stockpile would degenerate at so many units per damage point, similar in a way to the monetary cost of repairs at a space station. //This could be a possible boost in a sense to the galaxy economy//
The idea here is that, said ship would have to be protected as it'd have no guns to barely even any at all.
It'd have to be protected of course, so you'd need at least 1 or moreescorts so to speak.
It'd take pvp to an all new scale, in a sense that you'd need scouts searching for these ships while the rest of your fleet fights over a said section of space or *Station --more on this below--,
and you'd have to make decisive plans to jump to different sections of the area tokeep from getting found.
*Stations -- Here i was thinking along the lines of the GCW, certain cities can be overrun and control defaulted to the stronger faction. Why not add something similar to this in space but in a sense of, say...
Defending a station controlled by an opposite faction where at least a certain number of said faction personshave to be on board.
Control could be obtained in a manner similar to the destruction of bases on the ground. Where basically you'd have to dock with the station once it's incapacitated --shields/weap's are down-- and go in and gain control of certain terminals, and not to mention defeat said players on board. --kind of a neat combination of ground/space content--
During limbo when no one is there, the various roughians in the neighborhood could take it over making this an ever protected area, and highly coveted prize.
Perks for control could entail...
1) A co-ordinator terminal you'd have to access, where you could see nearby pvp participants on a
map, then you'd be able to move your faction to the area's that need the most protection
****note**** the map could run off the star system map, where you'd be able to see the pvp
enabled ships in a certain amount of the system. Could possibly even make
this sensor based and able to be taken out from either inside or outside.
2) Small bonuses granted to your guild hall or bank, or maybe the controlling group.
3) The ability to refuse repair options to opposing factions during the duration of control,
any other time unless you attacked the station, you'd pay a dear price for repairs. During your
factions control, repairs would be free, but your ship would still take the appropriate damage
from battle, if not maybe the costs could be halved.
Layout ideas for a station could be similar to that of the corvette, area size wouldn't have to be as large, making the hunt for the terminals and defending party a job none-the-less.
Ok folks, just noticed how much i've rambled on incoherrently, terribly sorry. These were ideas i've had for possibly a future expansion, that sounded rather neat to me.
Flame it or love it, either way is fine by me.
Sumaron
ps. sorry post was so long. haha
MWJ
Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:15 pm
#11
More variety, yes. more NPC capships, yes. Player owned capships? NO!
There is exactly 1 Imperial Destroyer in private ownership: the Errant Venture. That was a fluke. there are several other ships in private ownership, but most of those are pirates or stolen vessels. 99.9% of all capital ships are in the ownership of corporations, govenrments, ect.
another example. In the US, a person can own a yacht, but they would never be allowed to own an operational Missile Frigate, even if they had the money or the crew.
DigitalOne
Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:21 am
#12
MWJ wrote:
More variety, yes. more NPC capships, yes. Player owned capships? NO!
There is exactly 1 Imperial Destroyer in private ownership: the Errant Venture. That was a fluke. there are several other ships in private ownership, but most of those are pirates or stolen vessels. 99.9% of all capital ships are in the ownership of corporations, govenrments, ect.
another example. In the US, a person can own a yacht, but they would never be allowed to own an operational Missile Frigate, even if they had the money or the crew.
Well, you have to remember that in the CGW, we have the opportunity to affiliate ourselves with either sides military forces, join their army's and gain rank. We cease to be civilians and become soldiers, thereby become privy to military technology. Even Freelance pilots opporate for a police organization, the RSF and Corsec where known to possess corvettes, heavy transports and some frigates.
Your US analogy dosent work to well, after all in this game we are allowed to posses, X-wings, tie fighters (which are like F-16s, if they let us fly those, then they might as well let us drive a carriar), automatic weapons, grenades, missle launchers, and all manner of heavy explosives, things the US goverment wouldnt really want us to have either.
The problem i see is that guilds dont have much signifgance in space, aside from wingmen, mission groups, and maybe a deep space raid (which ive never seen happen in all these months of flying) guilds have only contrived roles, and play no effecivepart in space. Capitol ships and space stations should be some form of group community cooperatve projects that bring crafters and combatants togeather.
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