Pilot Archive
Thread: High-end shields and armor useless in PVP?
Message Edited by Ditolus on 01-13-2005 11:42 AM
Ditolus wrote:
in my experience there is no real point to loading up your figher with macdaddy shields and armor when going into deep space. especially when a fighter with significantly weaker firepower and weaker shields/armor can waste u just as quickly as u can waste him. pvp damage was already once decreased 25%. i could see another 25-40% reduction implemented. this would actually make the higher end shields and armor useful. also this would give the medium and heavy fighters a better chance against the lighter faster fighters. with current pvp damage, as it stands now an awing against a rhykxirk is terribly mismatched, its about 80-20 in favor of the awing. the awing ultimately should have the advantage but it she be more 55-45 or 60-40. i fly the krayt freelance master ship which is a heavy fighter with giant mass. and i have no problem with an awing or an interceptor flying around me dodging and weaving being very difficult to hit. what i do have a problem with is that pvp damage is so high, my advantage of being able to hold higher massed and more powerful armor and shields is totally negated.
I've had my 2k front and back sheilds (and 1k armor) dissapear in a few shots in PVP by ships with weaker guns then mine (i asked them) i've also done the same myself the time it takes me to destroy a ship in an a-wing is ridiculous PVP damage needs to be decreased by a bit more.
Message Edited by Naplam on 01-13-2005 10:30 AM
WO3 is the main cause for one hit kills.
I did some testing with a L1 gun that was 331.4-334.1 damage (crafted with a min damage upgrade, experimented for min damage to reduce the random variance to esentially 0, the gun does 330 damage)
WO1: +25%
WO2: +50%
WO3: +100%
WO4: -50%
Yes, that's right, WO4 makes you do less damage for about 10x the cap drain, tried it several times. WO3 may or nay not be bugged as far as damage increase, it's possible that WO4 should be a 200% damage increase, however the fact that WO3 uses less energy per shot instead of more, like every other WO, is a definite bug.
Space PvP can't be too many hits now that they added CtSS and CO commands. Otherwise the only way to kill somebody would be gank squads. Myself and a rebel ace routinely meet each other in combat in deep space. I've fought him in both his x-wing and a-wing, and in both cases we've managed to sustain quite long fights, considering one hit kills, 20-30 seconds is a normal 1v1 fight between he and I, and we are both excellent pilots.
There are 3 cases in 1v1space PvP that you are likely to see: 1 good pilot vs 1 good pilot, 1 good pilot vs 1 bad pilot, and 1 bad pilot vs 1 bad pilot. Were space PvP reduced to 75% here's what would happen. Assume it now takes 1 shot to kill somebody in space, after the reduction it would now take 4, also consider that starship weapon fire delay is generally .4 or less, sometimes less than .3, and most use 2-3 guns on thier PvP ships, so the average time to get off 4 shots is still less than a second, often times less than half a second, unless you're in an a-wing, which case it's still likely less than 1.5 seconds.
1 bad vs 1 bad: The two pilots see each other, rush at each other guns blazing (just like they do now) and it comes down to a contest of who has the best shields and guns (just like it is now). Net result, nothing changes
1 good vs 1 bad: The two pilots see each other, the bad pilot rushes at the good pilot guns blazing, the good pilot laughs, banks up does a 3D boosted turn, comes in on the bad pilot's 6, and unleashes his guns into the bad pilots aft shields, while the bad pilot thinks "hey! AI never does that!!!". Net result, nothing changes
1 good vs 1 good: The two pilots see each other and begin to make thier cautious approach. As they near they begin to spin and twirl, performing moves the AI could never dream of, spining and sliding as they vie for the upper hand. The two dance the dance of death. Eventually one will zig where they should have zagged, landing them dead in the crosshair of the enemy, who takes the oppertunity and shoots. Now one of thier shields is down to half but they see they are losing the dance and disengage to come and approach again. In the mean time they dump thier 2400+ capacitor charge (thanks to CO4)into thier shields almost fully recharging them. The dance begins again, twirling and spinning, sliding across the dance floor, but nobody can hit. Oh look, the cap is recharged, dump back into shields, now the shields are back to 100% on both parties, and the dance continues, and continues, because nobody can land more than one or two shots on the opponent at a time, the shields never drop, CtSS recharges them in a hurry. Net result, nobody ever wins.
I used to be big on the 75% damage reduction side until I started going up against other good pilots. Since they added CO and CtSS commands however, those days are gone. Besides, I really don't want a dog fight lasting 3-5 minutes. Dogfighting against another good pilot (or against more than one other good pilot...) is WAY high on the rush scale, and those were all 30-60 second fights tops, 30-60 VERY intense seconds (heck it could have been like 10 seconds it just seemed like a minute...). If you're having problems with your fights being over before they start, first make sure you have a joystick with a throttle control and twist action, next find out someone on your server who is good at space PvP and ask them to mentor you, start a fighter squadron, practice against each other, encourage your foes to do the same, stage large fights.
25% reduction wouldn't be so bad, I think even 50% is too much, 75% is way too much. Most I could see would be 35-40% reduction, because you need to be able to reliably penetrate the shielding in one shot to do actual damage, or at least take it down to almost nothing, otherwise CtSS will just "stim" the damage away before you can get another hit in. Honestly fixing WO3 would solve a LOT of PvP problems. That's a 50% reduction right there unless they chose to keep using it despite heafty cap usage costs (which would limit thier fireduration and ability to recharge thier shields after taking a hit)
For the record I fly a heavily modified Oppressor, which if you look at the stats on the sticky in the pilots forum you will see has marginally better handling than a y-wing (100/100/50 YPR vs 80/80/40 on the Y), and 1/2 to 1/3 the handling of an x-wing or a-wing. I keep all my gear in good condition however and I CAN take a few hits, and routinely do against a-wings. However thanks to good shields and armor, as well as high condition components, even with bugged WO3 I stay alive, it generally takes at least 2, often times 3 hits to fully take me down.
Eaca wrote:
Copy and pasted from another thread:
WO3 is the main cause for one hit kills.
I did some testing with a L1 gun that was 331.4-334.1 damage (crafted with a min damage upgrade, experimented for min damage to reduce the random variance to esentially 0, the gun does 330 damage)
WO1: +25%
WO2: +50%
WO3: +100%
WO4: -50%
Yes, that's right, WO4 makes you do less damage for about 10x the cap drain, tried it several times. WO3 may or nay not be bugged as far as damage increase, it's possible that WO4 should be a 200% damage increase, however the fact that WO3 uses less energy per shot instead of more, like every other WO, is a definite bug.
Space PvP can't be too many hits now that they added CtSS and CO commands. Otherwise the only way to kill somebody would be gank squads. Myself and a rebel ace routinely meet each other in combat in deep space. I've fought him in both his x-wing and a-wing, and in both cases we've managed to sustain quite long fights, considering one hit kills, 20-30 seconds is a normal 1v1 fight between he and I, and we are both excellent pilots.
There are 3 cases in 1v1space PvP that you are likely to see: 1 good pilot vs 1 good pilot, 1 good pilot vs 1 bad pilot, and 1 bad pilot vs 1 bad pilot. Were space PvP reduced to 75% here's what would happen. Assume it now takes 1 shot to kill somebody in space, after the reduction it would now take 4, also consider that starship weapon fire delay is generally .4 or less, sometimes less than .3, and most use 2-3 guns on thier PvP ships, so the average time to get off 4 shots is still less than a second, often times less than half a second, unless you're in an a-wing, which case it's still likely less than 1.5 seconds.
1 bad vs 1 bad: The two pilots see each other, rush at each other guns blazing (just like they do now) and it comes down to a contest of who has the best shields and guns (just like it is now). Net result, nothing changes
1 good vs 1 bad: The two pilots see each other, the bad pilot rushes at the good pilot guns blazing, the good pilot laughs, banks up does a 3D boosted turn, comes in on the bad pilot's 6, and unleashes his guns into the bad pilots aft shields, while the bad pilot thinks "hey! AI never does that!!!". Net result, nothing changes
1 good vs 1 good: The two pilots see each other and begin to make thier cautious approach. As they near they begin to spin and twirl, performing moves the AI could never dream of, spining and sliding as they vie for the upper hand. The two dance the dance of death. Eventually one will zig where they should have zagged, landing them dead in the crosshair of the enemy, who takes the oppertunity and shoots. Now one of thier shields is down to half but they see they are losing the dance and disengage to come and approach again. In the mean time they dump thier 2400+ capacitor charge (thanks to CO4)into thier shields almost fully recharging them. The dance begins again, twirling and spinning, sliding across the dance floor, but nobody can hit. Oh look, the cap is recharged, dump back into shields, now the shields are back to 100% on both parties, and the dance continues, and continues, because nobody can land more than one or two shots on the opponent at a time, the shields never drop, CtSS recharges them in a hurry. Net result, nobody ever wins.
I used to be big on the 75% damage reduction side until I started going up against other good pilots. Since they added CO and CtSS commands however, those days are gone. Besides, I really don't want a dog fight lasting 3-5 minutes. Dogfighting against another good pilot (or against more than one other good pilot...) is WAY high on the rush scale, and those were all 30-60 second fights tops, 30-60 VERY intense seconds (heck it could have been like 10 seconds it just seemed like a minute...). If you're having problems with your fights being over before they start, first make sure you have a joystick with a throttle control and twist action, next find out someone on your server who is good at space PvP and ask them to mentor you, start a fighter squadron, practice against each other, encourage your foes to do the same, stage large fights.
25% reduction wouldn't be so bad, I think even 50% is too much, 75% is way too much. Most I could see would be 35-40% reduction, because you need to be able to reliably penetrate the shielding in one shot to do actual damage, or at least take it down to almost nothing, otherwise CtSS will just "stim" the damage away before you can get another hit in. Honestly fixing WO3 would solve a LOT of PvP problems. That's a 50% reduction right there unless they chose to keep using it despite heafty cap usage costs (which would limit thier fireduration and ability to recharge thier shields after taking a hit)
For the record I fly a heavily modified Oppressor, which if you look at the stats on the sticky in the pilots forum you will see has marginally better handling than a y-wing (100/100/50 YPR vs 80/80/40 on the Y), and 1/2 to 1/3 the handling of an x-wing or a-wing. I keep all my gear in good condition however and I CAN take a few hits, and routinely do against a-wings. However thanks to good shields and armor, as well as high condition components, even with bugged WO3 I stay alive, it generally takes at least 2, often times 3 hits to fully take me down.
WO3 seems to use less cap energy than non-overloaded weapons to...at least it appears that way to me.
You hit on something maybe without even knowing it....all your scenarios are 1vs1...no 2 on 2, 3 on 2, 5 on 5, etc. Fighter pilots need wingmen to survive. If there was more than one threat out there, then battlescould be decided by otherfactors thanwho canturn fasteror who makes the least mistakes. There would be more erratic manovers, snap shots, and maybe even chances for missle runs.
Message Edited by Ditolus on 01-13-2005 11:55 AM
Ditolus wrote:
EACA did u actually go out and test your theory of the repercussions of a pvp damage decrease? Because a while ago I acutally did and i didn't come up with the results you posted. one of my guildmates and I decided we were sick of 5 second dogfights. so we decided to go buy some lvl 1 guns and see what would happen if we dueled in deep space. the normal guns i usually use had max average damage around 3300. the lvl 1 guns we picked up had max damage around 375. i should also add we were both using capacitor to shield stunt. so our experiment was basically an 85% decrease to pvp damage while keeping all droid programs and tactics the same. it turned out to be a lot of fun. i was keeping track and our duels lasted anywhere from 30-90 seconds. which in the end i think is how long the average 1 on 1 pvp fight should last.
Message Edited by Ditolus on 01-13-2005 11:55 AM
I have no idea the skill level of you and your friends. My ship has 2550 shields, 1100 armor, 2800 chassis, and my components are average in the 500 AP/HP range. If you go for a quicki component disabling on me with L1 guns, with an average damage per shot of about 330, assuming your guns are about 300-375 with .500 to vs shields and armor and WO3. That would require you to hit me 20 times at least to destroy me, more likely 25-30, and at least 11 times to just disable me. I'm hard to hit. Dang hard to hit. I've done a number of 2v1 and 3v1 encounters, with me being the 1, and half the time, even with the one shot kill system we have today, even 3 on 1, I win. Granted I win because I can kill in one hit, as well as not be hit. So, yes, I've done some even more stressful testing than just 1v1, I've done testing with the odds stacked highly against me. Those 3 on 1 fights would have never ended, and don't get me wrong it wasn't 3 bad on 1 good, it was 3 good on 1 good, but if I can move eratically enough to avoid one persons shots, I can move eratically enough to avoid 3. And I have had several duels under the current system last 30 seconds (well DS fights more than duels), if you're landing5-10 hits on each other faster than you can CtSS the damage away, you need to seriously re-evaluate your tactics. If its taking less than 10 hits to kill each other at 330 damage, without using CtSS, you need to look into getting some new components/chassis with a decent buffer between you and death.
Kassuff wrote:
WO3 seems to use less cap energy than non-overloaded weapons to...at least it appears that way to me.
You hit on something maybe without even knowing it....all your scenarios are 1vs1...no 2 on 2, 3 on 2, 5 on 5, etc. Fighter pilots need wingmen to survive. If there was more than one threat out there, then battlescould be decided by otherfactors thanwho canturn fasteror who makes the least mistakes. There would be more erratic manovers, snap shots, and maybe even chances for missle runs.
let's say tiger woods and i enter a putting contest. but each of us only gets one putt each. now obviously tiger is an insanely better golfer than me. but since it's only a one shot contest i could easily beat him with one lucky shot. now if tiger and i were to enter a contest where we were required to take 50 putts each, then tiger would most certainly win becuase his skill would come into play over a reasonable amount of putts.
this is why i think the 1-3 shot kills really kill the fun aspect and the skill aspect of space pvp. and why pvp damage should be lowered.
p.s. im not saying it should take 50 hits to kill someone in pvp i just used that number to illustrate the point that a reasonably longer fight (longer than 1-3 shots)will reward the better pilot.
Message Edited by Ditolus on 01-13-2005 03:24 PM
Message Edited by Ditolus on 01-13-2005 03:32 PM
Message Edited by Ditolus on 01-13-2005 03:38 PM
i think the damage should come down to 1-3 hits kills a small fighter, and heavy ship can take a few more. in order for that to happen they need to make high level shields much more powerful and reduce the damage slightly more.