Pilot Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: PvP Damage
Page 7 of 7
Envoy3113
Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:56 am
#79
50% in total redux I think would make it more than interesting enough. Not an additional 50, just off the top and do away with the current 25%.
WO3 needs to be addressed, but it doesn't fix the problem in it's entirety imo.
A change in the way damage is applied in PvP would without question bring hordes of people back into space.
In my krayt, as it stands the most I have had to lay into a ship is 2 shots on an oppressor. I have had 1 dogfight. One, thats it. Still got wasted as the other pilot had the drop on me hands down, but that was the most intense 5 seconds of my flying carrer. The only reason it entered into a dogfighting situation was because my PvE target was disabled the moment he opened fire and I cut the throttle to deliver the final shot. Hence my rear sheilds were toast but the rest of his shots went long. I was able to pull off a css,cut hard, boosted and entered into a spiral. Getting enough room in I turned and was able to just get him into sight as he locked me down.
Point is, there is no adrenaline involved in space PvP now. It's ohh look, he doesn't see me...Or ohh wow, where the hell did that come from?
An additional reduction over how it stands would not place us into never ending defence stacker ground battles. It would give a fighting chance to the person inside the reticule though. It would still boil down to skill and danger recognition. You will know if you get hit by a player and what you do that instant is what will dictate your survivability.
It will work off a subtle combination of skill and equipment. Thats how it should be imo. You will have people sacrificing every defensive measure to make the sickest light fighter they can manage. You will have an odd re-introduction...MISSILES!!! Remember those??? When is the last time you packed a countermeasure launcher on your ship? I would love to be in a dogfight only to be brought down by his wingmans seismic missile!!! I would laugh so hard I'd cry!!!
Bring the damage down, bring the pilots back up to the skys and make it fun.
EDITED: I'm sorry I put an 'e' after Krayt...I so hate seeing the word Krayte, I'm going to go break a finger now
Message Edited by Envoy3113 on 02-18-2005 12:58 PM
Raano_Geds
Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:50 pm
#80
I think I am looking at PvP in more than a 1v1 scenario. Like psikobunny says, if you're alone, then checking for the nearest enemy player every few seconds is a must. But in a group, well, I'd like to re-examine the Imps vs. Rebels scenario where the rebels have to defend their capital ship against imperial attacks.
First off, the rebels are always going to be at a disadvantage here. No matter how you adjust damage, the rebels are always going to have to pick between two groups of targets (Imperial gunboats and Imperial players) while imperial players only have to target rebel players. Now like I said in my earlier post, I support putting some chassis modifiers on various ships to give them more defined roles, and allow the bigger fighters to absorb a lot more punishment. I think that alone would bring this particular scenario as close to parity as you can reasonably get. But ignore that for a moment. The Rebs defend vs. Imps scenario goes down, and fighters are exactly the way they are now.
If the rebels come flying nothing but B-Wings and Y-Wings loaded to kill gunboats, they're going to die against imperials who bring Interceptors and Advanced to the party. The imperials will fly literal rings around them, and except for a few lucky kills, the rebels will get mopped up. Same results if the sides are reversed, the Imps bring Bombers and Oppressors, and the Rebs bring A-Wings and Z-95s. But this is true even with the proposed modifiers.
The only way to really make this scenario work is for the Rebels to bring a sizable force with a mixture of light fighters (A-Wings and Z-95s) and heavy fighters (B-Wings, Y-Wings, and X-Wings). The lights and interceptors have to engage the Imperial pilots and keep the heavies free to engage the gunboats. Yes, death is going to be fast for both sides, but for light fighters, death comes quickly whether damage is 75% or 50%. The imperials win if they can get through the escorts and kill the heavies, the rebels win if they can keep the imperial pilots busy and let their heavies kill the gunboats.
This scenario is more about teamwork and coordination than it is about whether damage is reduced more. Tweaking chassis modifiers to give heavies a more defined role will help, but across the board damage reduction isn't the answer. In my opinion, big melees are even reasons for damage reduction than 1v1 fights. Command, control, and coordination (C3) are what win big battles, not whether individual fighters die in 5 seconds, 20 seconds, or 75 seconds.
First off, the rebels are always going to be at a disadvantage here. No matter how you adjust damage, the rebels are always going to have to pick between two groups of targets (Imperial gunboats and Imperial players) while imperial players only have to target rebel players. Now like I said in my earlier post, I support putting some chassis modifiers on various ships to give them more defined roles, and allow the bigger fighters to absorb a lot more punishment. I think that alone would bring this particular scenario as close to parity as you can reasonably get. But ignore that for a moment. The Rebs defend vs. Imps scenario goes down, and fighters are exactly the way they are now.
If the rebels come flying nothing but B-Wings and Y-Wings loaded to kill gunboats, they're going to die against imperials who bring Interceptors and Advanced to the party. The imperials will fly literal rings around them, and except for a few lucky kills, the rebels will get mopped up. Same results if the sides are reversed, the Imps bring Bombers and Oppressors, and the Rebs bring A-Wings and Z-95s. But this is true even with the proposed modifiers.
The only way to really make this scenario work is for the Rebels to bring a sizable force with a mixture of light fighters (A-Wings and Z-95s) and heavy fighters (B-Wings, Y-Wings, and X-Wings). The lights and interceptors have to engage the Imperial pilots and keep the heavies free to engage the gunboats. Yes, death is going to be fast for both sides, but for light fighters, death comes quickly whether damage is 75% or 50%. The imperials win if they can get through the escorts and kill the heavies, the rebels win if they can keep the imperial pilots busy and let their heavies kill the gunboats.
This scenario is more about teamwork and coordination than it is about whether damage is reduced more. Tweaking chassis modifiers to give heavies a more defined role will help, but across the board damage reduction isn't the answer. In my opinion, big melees are even reasons for damage reduction than 1v1 fights. Command, control, and coordination (C3) are what win big battles, not whether individual fighters die in 5 seconds, 20 seconds, or 75 seconds.
Tumbler2002
Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:36 pm
#81
If the rebels come flying nothing but B-Wings and Y-Wings loaded to kill gunboats, they're going to die against imperials who bring Interceptors and Advanced to the party. The imperials will fly literal rings around them, and except for a few lucky kills, the rebels will get mopped up. Same results if the sides are reversed, the Imps bring Bombers and Oppressors, and the Rebs bring A-Wings and Z-95s. But this is true even with the proposed modifiers.
The only way to really make this scenario work is for the Rebels to bring a sizable force with a mixture of light fighters (A-Wings and Z-95s) and heavy fighters (B-Wings, Y-Wings, and X-Wings). The lights and interceptors have to engage the Imperial pilots and keep the heavies free to engage the gunboats. Yes, death is going to be fast for both sides, but for light fighters, death comes quickly whether damage is 75% or 50%. The imperials win if they can get through the escorts and kill the heavies, the rebels win if they can keep the imperial pilots busy and let their heavies kill the gunboats.
Under the current system I think it's not possible for the rebels to win this scenario unless they outnumber the imperials 2 to 1. Taking out gunships takes quite a bit of time, and an imperial pilot with a modest ship only needs a second of firing to take out one of the rebel heavy fighters that will be VERY vulnerable trying to attack the other. If the imperials get engaged by A-wings they just bring the fight to the the gunboats and let those turrets pop the awings. (Turret strength is another issue...).
If you're confident you can defend heavy fighters, try it. Get 2 B-wing pilots to be the targets, 4 awings as escorts, then have 6 imperial tie interceptors attack. You're telling me those B-wings have a shot in hell of getting away from those 2 interceptors that don't get engaged? They'll be dead in seconds, because teh a-wings are busy with the 4 interceptors that are after them. My argument is to make seconds into 10-15 seconds. Heavy ships have 4x as much mass as a-wings and don't last any longer under contant fire, it may take a few extra hits but blasters fire almost 3/second so at most he survives 1 second longer.
When your b-wings go down immediately, try it with just tie/in's, you'll get smoked. (TIE/IN's are Tier 2 ships btw) You stand a shot if you drop the imperial side to Tie fighters because they can't mount the best weaponry/engines. (THAT IS TIER 1) So basically your tier 5 ships can hold their own against Tier 1 player ships. Nothing more. A tier 5 ship should be able to hold a tier 3 ship at bay
long enough for his escort to help him.
Now imagine other players using Tie Adv'd. Easily a match for an awing and will vape a bwing in at most 2 seconds. See what I'm getting at? Heavy fighters are 3-4x as much mass which comes at the cost of manueverability. But the protection they get is pathetic. Someone has you lined up and it's over. Doesn't matter what u used all the mass for, your ship is toasted.
Raano_Geds
Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:57 pm
#82
Tumbler2002 wrote:snipped ...
When your b-wings go down immediately, try it with just tie/in's, you'll get smoked. (TIE/IN's are Tier 2 ships btw) You stand a shot if you drop the imperial side to Tie fighters because they can't mount the best weaponry/engines. (THAT IS TIER 1) So basically your tier 5 ships can hold their own against Tier 1 player ships. Nothing more. A tier 5 ship should be able to hold a tier 3 ship at bay
long enough for his escort to help him.
Now imagine other players using Tie Adv'd. Easily a match for an awing and will vape a bwing in at most 2 seconds. See what I'm getting at? Heavy fighters are 3-4x as much mass which comes at the cost of manueverability. But the protection they get is pathetic. Someone has you lined up and it's over. Doesn't matter what u used all the mass for, your ship is toasted.
Okay Tumbler, you've convinced me that heavies need some extra protection. However, I still think that adding chassis modifiers making shields and armor more effective on heavy fighers is a better fix than just damage reduction. I fundamentally dislike damage reduction because it feels like an overkill solution. If we agree that the problem is primarily that there is no inherent defensive benefits that pilots of heavy fighters gain in exchange for losing maneuverability, then I feel that the problem should be fixed for the heavy fighters, not just for everyone.
I do take issue with your blanket statement that a Tier 5 ship should be able to hold a Tier 3 at bay regardless. To me, that seems to over-emphasize the equipment differential.
As for two B-Wings versus two Interceptors/Advanced/ TIE /ln's, how about the opposite? Two A-Wings versus two TIE Bombers? I think that two pilots who know what their doing, well, the A-Wings may still win, but there should be at least one dead A-Wing at the end of the engagement.
Bottom line for me? Bump the chassis modifiers, don't do across the board damage reduction.
Duy
Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:21 pm
#83
1. Change how mp ships "die"
Set the chassis hit points to infinity. Wait, read on. These ships are no threat without a crew, so you kill the crew with plasma fires and
internal explosions. Players need buffs and healsmoving the medic economy, and the ship needs repairs moving shipwright repair kits. These
ships are expensive to buy, and hard to run because of the team effort. The guns alerady get knocked out easy, but put someone in there
repairing it and you have a neverending "new" target until the one repairing the gun gets killed by the plasma fire next to him. MP ships are added
to the war, pve is still dangerous b/c of plasma fires, and there was no damage reduction. Even with a damage reduction, this will still make
master player ships hard to kill, but easy to temporarily "knockout". This would have to be balanced so sitting next to the corvette would produce
enough plasma fires to make gunners move from their seats.
2. Large scale battles.
You want to last more than 10 seconds in a large scale melee? Pilot a star destroyer, or load as much armor and shields asyou can, then put
the rest into a gun (prob lvl 3). 2500 shiled, 1700 armor, c2ss, should enable you to take a 2 hits if either system is put in place.
But with raising defenses, there will need to be a revamp of npc's making the process more difficult.
3. Rewards.
Needs to be some. Pay me and i'll do something; simple as that. Let us blow up reb/imp space stations in any zone. Don't give much for em, but
this couldcount toward the new gcw system for space.It would be nice to have tier 1 and 2 presense around controlledspace stations without
having thespace station deny access to anyone. Sure it's easy to deal with and land, but it does tell other players they are being beat while at the
same timegiving them something they can do about it. Go overt and take it back.
4. Weapon overcharge 3.
Shhhhhhh, don'ttell.It's just so nice how it is. Anyone can buy it and use it. How is that not "balanced"? In the words of TK387, "Move along."
Viko Ause, radiant, imppilot,doc,rifleman
Jay-Jay Wilkerson, bloodfin, reb pilot, brawler, marksman.
MonsofoLexius
Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:34 pm
#84
First off not trying to pick on ya Quad. Yours was just the first post that had all the info I wanted to comment on... And on that note....
quadpers0n wrote:
The real solution is to fix the rediculously broken weapon overcharge 3. Players like me are out there with guns doing 7k damage spamming shots with no penalties. Fix that bug first and then decide what needs to be done withPVP. When you have only 10 shots a capacitor you aren't going to be throwing out a stream of death and it's going to be much more difficult.
Just remember though, with WCO3 i'm doing around 10k+ per shot.
OK things to consider.
- WO3 is fixed/chaned/nerfed/whatever so it takes 10 times (going overboardto illustrate)the ammount of cap energy
- Player runs CO3 or 4
- They have a decent looted and RE'd cap (my best is 3K plus energy at CO4)
OK so now WO3 is fixed, and a player is STILL doing 10k+ per shot. No change. You just get to fire less shots. But at 2500-3000 cap energy you will STILL have plenty of stored cap energy to kill a player in less then 1 second.
So to all those that want to "wait until WO3" is fixed to talk about PvP damage. I am still not convinced that a fixed/chaned/nerfed/whatever WO3 makes much of a difference. If you try PvP with WO2 or none at all, its still all very close...
Convince me better..................
(this is not meant as a flame/etc, I am still looking for a better reason to "wait to fix WO3" until we talk about PvP damage. And this argument just gets shot down too easily)
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