Pilot Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: PvP Damage
Eaca
Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:01 pm
#40
In anything short of an oppressor and advanced, it's pretty hard to get a full on hit in PvP. Krayt can hit pretty regularly with it's two middle guns, but not likely to hit with all 3, same for most other multi weapon ships. Add to that the fact most peoples guns are pretty heavy on the energy use, and the ONLY reason they can spam shots not stop with these guns is bugged WO3. Likely even with no WO program and CO4 on a 50 recharge cap and 25 energy per shot guns, you'll be draining 75 cap energy per second per gun, and only recharging 100, on something like an x-wing, rihx, or krayt, that's 225 energy per second, a 125 deficit. The average cap will be drained in less than 10 seconds using NO weapon overload, the "exceptional" cap will be drained in less than 15. Even if all 3 are RE'd borstels that's still 120 energy per shot. Sustainable for quite a long time yes, but CtSS programs now actually have a sting. If you CtSS 4, well you're waiting on the regen to shoot. Light fighters with only 1 or 2 guns won't feel this pinch as bad. Heck an a-wing may still be able to use WO3 assuming it has a big enough reactor. This is why I say wait to see what fixing WO3 does, and fix the CO programs to use more reactor power. Give people some time to settle in to using droid programs that are "working as intended". Once people are using the droid programs that are working properly, then we'll have a better idea of what the damage reduction should be. I think once droid programs are working fine, another 25% off the top should make for some decent dog fighting.
Ivon
Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:14 pm
#41
im still gonna go on the reduce weapon damage situation
for those that think it will become equipment over skill....
id say youneed more skill tokill a person with reduced damage than the current system. You cant get lucky with reduced damage, you need enough skill to get behind/maintain consecutive contact with the enemy and hit them enough times to kill them.
again, go try it in deep space with a friend =)
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:59 pm
#42
yes, with my 4.7 gun guns, at .35 refire it's a one shot kill against light fighters and 2 providing the ship has the reward shield and good armor without droid commands. not to mention with my guns firing that fast, i'm gonna hit you twice.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-16-2005 06:19 AM
Tumbler2002
Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:26 pm
#43
1. Droid programs need to be fixed. WO3 is probably the biggest priority. If I can run reactor overload 4, capacitor overload 4, engine overload 3 and weapon overload 3 at the same time, something is wrong. I'd be surprised if capacitor overload programs weren't messed up as well.
2. PvP damage - Really no way to know what to do here until droid programs get straightened out. Dealing with more reactor drain on these programs might take pvp damage way down on some of the smaller ships.
3. Multiplayer ships- Need a big bonus in performance to their equipment. I think 4x might be in order for the current equipment. I don't think you should consider making loot specially for multi ships since there so many single player ships, creating a new loot tree would be a waste when you can just give bonus's to current loot when equipped in multi ships.
2. PvP damage - Really no way to know what to do here until droid programs get straightened out. Dealing with more reactor drain on these programs might take pvp damage way down on some of the smaller ships.
3. Multiplayer ships- Need a big bonus in performance to their equipment. I think 4x might be in order for the current equipment. I don't think you should consider making loot specially for multi ships since there so many single player ships, creating a new loot tree would be a waste when you can just give bonus's to current loot when equipped in multi ships.
1st_Viduus
Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:10 am
#44
quadpers0n wrote:
i pvp'dtonight and took down tie advanced in my kihraxh 5 separate times. i used a level 5 gun, they used a level 8 or higher gun. i died twice from 1 hit and killed themwith5 or 6 hits with an overcharge 3.
my ship, as stated numerous times, is one that ANYONE can get. it's highest level component is a level 6 RE'd engine. the rest is junk.any player in the game can get out there and have fun with pvp as it stands now.
don't be the guys responsible for altering that. find ways to get the word out about how accessable, fast paced and fun the current dynamic can be.
Hate to be the one to say it, but obviously, by the heat of this topic, number of differing opinions, and many other *signs*, a great many people seem to disagree with you.
We will also be sorry if it does get altered and it *ruins your fun*, but I already have 2 friends that left swg because to them PvP in space was a game-breaking experience. I realise you feel strongly in your position. That's fine. But only a few posts ago you said "One shot kills are a myth".... and now you just posted that you got 1 shot killed twice from one hit.
Now, that's fine, but understand that you're a pilot that quite obviously lives and breathes the space game and PvP... what about the weekend warrior? Or the person that had to struggle through the entire process?
Even just the "average" pilot?
Like I said before, I agree that damage reduction is not the way to go. As Monsofo said, taking as a given that all overloads are fixed, maybe that will be enough. Then again maybe not. Who knows. Balancing it out seems far preferable to me. I can't ever imagine taking my Kirhaxz out to PvP... you would need to be Forrest Gump's blind twin to miss hitting it... and truly unless you fit it the same way as an A-Wing, except adding maximum armor, engine, and shields, there is absolutely no gain to flying it. In which case, what's the point of having a different ship?
TomoRainer
Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:14 am
#45
The more I PVP, the more I like how damage plays out. I'm sure not one-shotting anybody in my Interceptor, in which I can fit a single RE'd level 7 reward gun (roughly 2000-3000 damage, .630 to armor and shields); X-Wings take about 3 shots, Krayts 5, even A-Wings take at least 2. Heck, I'm not getting one-shotted either, even though I'm only using 1775 HP shields and 250 HP armor--over my last 35-40 kills I've been shot on maybe a dozen different occasions by a variety of ships and the single time I've died was when I made the humorous mistake of flying straight at a Y-Wing. The only time I've even taken component damage was when I took a full frontal blast from an X-Wing and lost my level 2 capacitor and nothing else. My defenses are pretty flimsy, less than half what a heavy fighter should be carrying, and I'm still not getting hit that hard.
So from both personal experience and going over the numbers, it seems like the only ships really capable of downing anyone with a single volley are the medium and heavy fighters. Whether this increased firepower is enough to offset their deficiencies in the handling department is debatable, but I DO know my light fighter isn't dropping heavies as fast as they think. I see two to five ticks of disintegrating shields/armor/systems/chassis before I kill anybody.
All this running of my mouth doesn't mean I'm entirely against changing things, just that I'm with the crowd that advocates proceeding with caution. Fix WO3 first and give it a few weeks to see what happens. If it still seems a little on the quick side, maybe cut damage a bit, but I could not see it dropping more than another 20-25% tops before light fighter aces become nigh-on invincible.
I would like to see PVP decay removed entirely. Decay hurts heavy fighters much more than the light: their level 7-10 components have a much higher armor rating than the level 1-4 stuff that makes up the bulk of a light fighter's equipment, not to mention the fact their chassis tend to have nearly double the HP, so cutting back on that steady decay of their secondary armor will extend their lifetimes a bit.
POB ships need huge changes. Something like tripling or quadrupling their shields and armor would probably about do it (Mk VI components with 200-500K mass, maybe, though for pilots' sakes they better not take 3-4 times the resources of a Mk V), though it'd be neat if they could soak more component and chassis damage as well or instead, so as to give a well-crewed ship the ability to repair. Perhaps giving them so much protection would seem to imbalance them in PVE, but considering a Decimator with 3-5 men crewing is already less effective than a single pilot in an Advanced or Oppressor, I'd be inclined to say who cares.
Hmm, think that's everything in my PVP manifesto so far.
So from both personal experience and going over the numbers, it seems like the only ships really capable of downing anyone with a single volley are the medium and heavy fighters. Whether this increased firepower is enough to offset their deficiencies in the handling department is debatable, but I DO know my light fighter isn't dropping heavies as fast as they think. I see two to five ticks of disintegrating shields/armor/systems/chassis before I kill anybody.
All this running of my mouth doesn't mean I'm entirely against changing things, just that I'm with the crowd that advocates proceeding with caution. Fix WO3 first and give it a few weeks to see what happens. If it still seems a little on the quick side, maybe cut damage a bit, but I could not see it dropping more than another 20-25% tops before light fighter aces become nigh-on invincible.
I would like to see PVP decay removed entirely. Decay hurts heavy fighters much more than the light: their level 7-10 components have a much higher armor rating than the level 1-4 stuff that makes up the bulk of a light fighter's equipment, not to mention the fact their chassis tend to have nearly double the HP, so cutting back on that steady decay of their secondary armor will extend their lifetimes a bit.
POB ships need huge changes. Something like tripling or quadrupling their shields and armor would probably about do it (Mk VI components with 200-500K mass, maybe, though for pilots' sakes they better not take 3-4 times the resources of a Mk V), though it'd be neat if they could soak more component and chassis damage as well or instead, so as to give a well-crewed ship the ability to repair. Perhaps giving them so much protection would seem to imbalance them in PVE, but considering a Decimator with 3-5 men crewing is already less effective than a single pilot in an Advanced or Oppressor, I'd be inclined to say who cares.
Hmm, think that's everything in my PVP manifesto so far.
psikobunny
Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:12 am
#46
Ivon wrote:
im still gonna go on the reduce weapon damage situation
for those that think it will become equipment over skill....
id say youneed more skill tokill a person with reduced damage than the current system. You cant get lucky with reduced damage, you need enough skill to get behind/maintain consecutive contact with the enemy and hit them enough times to kill them.
again, go try it in deep space with a friend =)
If given the choice between a long duel that takes several shots to kill someone because of enforced damage reduction, and a duel that becomes long because the guy managed to evade me with imminent death at every turn, I prefer the latter. It seems a truer indication of skill. As it stands, I have done most of my PvP in a Z95 headhunter, vs tier4-5 imperials who thought they had a fresh noob to pick on. It takes me 4-5 shots to win. Damage reduction would eliminate this rig as a viable option in PvP. I see simple damage reduction as a crutch for bad pilots. I much prefer that space PvP be a "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" scenario. Making it so more people PvP isnt enough, I want more good people PvPing.
Coran_Sienar
Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:11 am
#47
Mons,
I fly an X-Wing loaded with 3 RE'd Level 7 guns. My average damage output every 0.32 seconds (after accounting for shields and armor and WITHOUT overload programs) is in excess of 4000points. A full on hit with all 3 blasterswilldestroy any player without heavy foward shield reinforcement on a reward shield. Even if they turn, I can put so much volume of fire into their general area that it's unlikely they'll survive. I use weapon overload programs because the NPC's have shields that are about 5X-20X stronger than any player. But there's no need to use it against players in my setup.
I don't have the best engine stats (mid-to-high 60s YPR) so I can be outmaneuvered in a turning fight. However, in a head-to-head scenario, Because of the fact that I'm unlikely to survive past the merge against a person with a better turn rate engine, I'm almost always looking for enemy players.
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:13 am
#48
vidius, i think you are missing what im saying and it seems like everyone who wants damage reduction on this thread is a as well.
i am talking specificially about the weekend warrior being unable to pvp under a reduced damage system. your idea about shield deflection is a terrific one, but people don't seem to be actively pursuing that as an option they want.
i don't really care what you think about the kihraxz but the fact of the matter is that if damage is reduced, this ship, along with the z-95,and possibly every light tie save the interceptor will not be a viable pvp ship.
master vs non master competition will be completely impossible as well. i killed at least 10 different pilots when i was tier three. the weekend warrior will not be able to get a ship capable of bringing master pilots down in a reduced damage system and they certainly won't be able to get a ship that will compete with my oppressor.
as it stands now there's a world of difference between light and heavy ships the problem is that heavy ships don't have a purpose. fix the viability of MP ships and they will with the snap of your fingers. you'll need those ships to take down MP ships, that should be the heavy fighter's role anyway, without a counter what's the purpose of flying a lighter ship?
i do think i'm misinterpreting our correspondant though, i read his original post thinking he was intending to outright change the overcharge commands, re-reading it that doesn't seem to be the case and i apologize. it'll be a great thing if WCO3 get's fixed.
it's not about ruining my fun here vidius, if the current system stays in i die alot as i am a mediocre pilot at best. i'll fly my cheap junk ship, bat .250 and be happy as a pig in @#$% but under a reduced damage system, specifically a forced one i'll win alot as my equipment is some of the best on my server. i'm sorry you had friends that quit, but i had friends that quit because they believed further damage reduction was down the road. it swings both ways and i don't see an overwealming majority in favor of either or, but i do see not a single person discouting what would happen under a system that became dependant on equipment.
ajag
Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:26 am
#49
I agree with you quaperson in that damage should not be decreased. However, I do disagree with you when you say there is a world of difference between light and heavy fighters. There is a word of difference when it comes to handling and mass, but if you put an A wing vs a Krayt (same weapons) Head to head without moving no matter what shields the krayt has, if the A-wing (unless you are using very low power weapons) gets the shot first, the krayt will be destroyed first (most likely). When I say give each ship a role I mean give light fighters handlingturning bonuses, give heavy fighters defense bonuses so they can have the extra armor they should. I am completely against damage reduction though, I do not want space to become like the ground where one template rules it all.
quadpers0n
Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:46 am
#50
ajag wrote:
I agree with you quaperson in that damage should not be decreased. However, I do disagree with you when you say there is a world of difference between light and heavy fighters. There is a word of difference when it comes to handling and mass, but if you put an A wing vs a Krayt (same weapons) Head to head without moving no matter what shields the krayt has, if the A-wing (unless you are using very low power weapons) gets the shot first, the krayt will be destroyed first (most likely). When I say give each ship a role I mean give light fighters handlingturning bonuses, give heavy fighters defense bonuses so they can have the extra armor they should. I am completely against damage reduction though, I do not want space to become like the ground where one template rules it all.
i don't have a problem with that scenario whatsoever. it's not that i like to see larger ships get nuked in 1 shot, i gotta be clear that's not what i want to see at all. do i think it's fun when i'm dueling friends and just get waxed? not really, no. it's anticlimatic, and part of the reason i fly a junk ship. is it without skill? no, that's absurd, but it is a bit too quick.
my problem is: right now there is parity, you can beat anyone with anything and the variables are exclusively dependant on human error. my sole wish is to not see the game degrade into what is going on in the ground game, which has been absurd for a year now. there's lots of great ideas i think people have come up with to change the way things are now and make them more fun, and those should be explored extensively, but throughout the course of this game, or at least until very recently, the devs have simply made the easy change without thinking about the players, i just don't want to see the same thing happen to space.
i can totally see our correspondant saying "yup, majority want damage reduction (majority being 50.1%)" and the devs say "easy! fixed. have fun" and then 5 players lord over an entire server. imo this shouldn't even be an issue right now. before anything is done the best thing about JTL, probably the best thing the devs have designed ever, the MP ships, should be made viable and bugs should be fixed. you can't balance anything when you are working with a system that doesn't work as designed.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-16-2005 06:51 AM
ajag
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:13 am
#51
Well, in my opinion there is parity in how fast every ship blows up. See, if all ships were created equal, the I would completely agree with you and I would say leave everything as it is. However, if you are flying a krayt, and dualing someone flying an A-wing, you will see how difficult it is to get that A-wing in your sights so you can even shoot at it once. This scenario stops showing the pilots ability and puts all the skill on the ship. However, if you make the bigger ships represent what they should, teh fight should be more balanced. The fastest and more maneuverable ship will always have the advantage, but at least it gives players a reason to use other ships. Right now skil does not really play a part unless you are both using the exact same ship, which will always be the case up to a certain extend, but if you make larger ships blow up in 4 hits rather than in 2, it allows both sides to show their level of skill better as if you make the ships equal when clearly they are not.
SwordNMace
Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:34 am
#52
1st_Viduus wrote:
you said "One shot kills are a myth".... and now you just posted that you got 1 shot killed twice from one hit.
A lot of people seem to be under the impression that space pvp is one-hit kills all the time no matter what you fly. That is the myth, and it's why this discussion keeps coming back.
1st_Viduus wrote:
what about the weekend warrior? Or the person that had to struggle through the entire process?Even just the "average" pilot?
Are you saying that the system should be balanced so that the "average" pilot should have an equal chance against an excellent pilot? That's where we're at on the ground, and look at the good it's doing. Any noob can troll ebay, buy a Jedi account and suddenly they're killing everyone. Now, obviously you can't ebay pilot skills, but I don't want a system where the experience and the tactics I've developed count for nothing.