Pilot Archive
Thread: Anyone else have a love/hate thing for SW's?
Page 4 of 4
MonsofoLexius
Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:20 am
#40
Marzuk147 wrote: "hh, sorry, dont beleive you. Too many SW's saying "ive made m(b)illions" in threads justifying their prices over their much loathed counterparts they call "low ballers"" Easy: First in first to profit. Those who mastered first and gouged made an insane profit due to bieng the only ones that could make certain items. Anyone that purchased something in the first week or so probably paid for it, a lot. This is where the MAJORITY of most SW profit came from. Try starting one now and see how much profit you make. /snicker
But the argument still to this day continues that shipwrights carge way too much for there stuff.
HERE IS A CHALANGE: If you think SW are charging too much.
Post a screenie of the item on vendor, let us all take a look at it and figure the CPU the SW is charging. Or just give us a WP to the vendor, something we can acually talk about. Until then I will consider all "shipwright charge too much" post un-informed wines about the resource requirments SOE made for our stuff, nothing more.
As a MSW I seem to come back with cost, resource requirments and other facts. All I see in return is "your wrong" "you make too much money", ya want to win this argument??? Back it up with some verifyable FACTS!
And don't forget, when ya see a SW posts "they made a billion" don't forget to put as much faith in that as a "I PWND JOU" thread. They might be embelishing a bit (A LOT)
MonsofoLexius
Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:24 am
#41
TomoRainer wrote:
When I blow through all this stuff, what can I do to get more? Why, I can buy from resource vendors and auctions.. where I'm competing with armorsmiths and weaponsmiths who charge 50-150 cpu for their product. And good lord, don't even make me think about competing for reactive gas with doctors charging 300-500 cpu for buffs /suicide
Very good point. Stop paying so much to Doctors/Weaponsmiths/Armorsmiths and the cost per unit for decent resources will come down. Then it won't seem like SW are taking you to the cleaners
Stawei_Idow
Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:44 am
#42
i have a toon thats a master aritsan and architect, (quitting architect, sale on eclipse, tat, -354 -5511)
i generally charged 3cpu for my architect stuff. definately one of the cheaper merchants on the servers.
why do i charge these prices? because i make a good profit at them.
a lot of architect items do not dependent on the quality of stats, so that makes it cheaper, but not really.
why?
i mine almost every resource i use.
some posts in this thread are from crafters or former crafters, but for those that arent, a harvester math lesson.
(credits per minute + cost of power per minute) / resource per minute = cpu
i found an 85% concentration of ore, very important to the architects.
power cost is based on 75% spot with fusion at pe of 750
1 / 10.5 = 0.095 credits per unit = 0.063 cost per POWER unit (1 / [10.5 x 1.5])
heavy harvester:
(1.5 + .063) / 11.05 = 0.141 cpu
medium harverster:
(1 + .063) / 8.5 = 0.125 cpu
personal harverster
(.5 + .063) / 3.4 = 0.165 cpu
we can see that a medium harv is the cheapest to run, but, you get about 3600 fewer units per day with it on an 85% spot, and .016 cpu isnt really a big deal.
why do resources cost so much?
first, there is the time involved in finding a spot and making the harv runs every few days, or maybe everyday, (i had to when i started, i didnt have the money to dump in a weeks worth or maint).
some people just set up all their harvs in a field and leave them, harvesting whatever has the highest concentration or best stats. i will ignore those for now, i want to make resorces cost as much as possible.
lets say you have 2 accounts and thus 20 lots. at least 2 lots will be used for a house so lets say you have 18 left, thats up to 18 harvs, so you have some on a chem, a mineral, and a gas, say 5 on each.
you would put all 5 of each type together because you want as many resources as possible, so you (usually) have to go three different places to do harv runs.
lets say they are on 3 different planets, just to make it more expensive. endor, dant, and talus.
not the most expensive planets to go to, but its a nice mix of prices.
so you make a run every day, with tickets and bike repairs, it will cost roughly 13k in tickets, and maybe 4k worth of bike repairs, thats a bit high for repairs, but we'll use it anyway.
so thats 17k extra per day.
using our heavy harvesters, you would get 15912 resources per day per harv so 79560 per field of 5 (yes, each having 85% probably wont happen, just play along).
so 17000cr / 79560 resources = .213cpu extra, so our total is now 0.354 cpu not incuding what you think your time is worth to find the resouce in the first place and the time for harv runs.
lets say it takes you 1 hour to find that nice 85% spot, what is your time worth? 10cr/hr, 500cr/hr?
lets use 10000cr/hr.
we know that we get 79560 resources per day, and lets use 8 days for the spawn, so that would be 636480 resources from the whole spawn,
at 10000cr/hr you spent 1 hour finding the resource so we need to add that to the harvest costs
636480u x 0.354cpu = 225313.92cr + 10000cr = 235313.92cr
235313.92cr / 636480u = 0.369cpu
why do resources cost so much?
it doesnt matter if every stat on the ore was 200 or less or everyone was 1000, it still costs the same.
the resource totals and concentrations are all theoretical and based on 0 server down time, which is impossible but the theory is the same, you dont pay maint during server down time, so there is no loss there, but you get fewer resources, so this would make the cost slightly higher.
let us reasonably figure that resources cost less than 0.5cpu in 90% of cases, a fair assesement.
why should we be paying more than 3cpu for anything? as raw resources anyway. thats still 500% profit.
this doesnt apply as well to hunters because of the difference in harvest rates per person and per critter, but it is a similar principle.
the other 'cost' people charge for product is the time and skill required to make it.
time is almost nil, i can craft something in under 1 minute, even taking my time and looking/thinking about which resources are best and what stats i want to increase with experimentation it takes less than 3.
everyone but sw can make factory schems to run as we do other things, thus taking less of our time to make items.
charging for skill is not reasonable, as someone else pointed out, we shouldnt pay for the time/money/resource you used to grind to master, so having 10 experiment points vs 3 is of no value by itself.
as far as i know, there are no attachments with shipwright modifiers but all other crafters have them, so a 12 or 14 point crafter can make a higher quality product, and this is worth more because of the cost in getting those attachments.
using high quality resources with 10 (or more) exp points renders a quality product, which i am willing to pay for, if its a reasonable cost.
if you dont want to 'waste' your time/money as you go up the tree, sell that stuff on the bazaar, or get a vendor.
make some in practice for extra xp, but sell off the better ones you make.
there is always a market for lower quality products for less money. they will sell, maybe not as fast as high quality stuff, but it will sell.
i always sell an item for one price, my cost to make a nice profit. so i sell swoops for 25000 credits, always. 75% or 99%, it still cost me the same to make it, it should cost you the same to buy it. of course the 99% ones are going to sell first, but the others will sell too because it is a reasonable cost.
there is a lot of money on the servers, which is why people can charge what they do for whatever they are selling.
no one should try to tell me what i charge for my services, just as i wont tell you.
i have a smuggler toon that has lost business becuse some thought i charged too much to slice, they tried to tell me what to charge, i said no, its X or nothing. just because your friend charges 1k per slice, doesnt mean i have to, you like their price, go find them.
same with crafters, you dont like the price, find another one.
i dont want to sound like im telling you what to charge for your product, but many times when the cost complaint is raised, and some say it costs a lot to make the items, which doesnt have to be true.
some things cost a lot because resource requirements are high (shipwright, architect), but most are not that high.
some wont/cant have more than one account, me inculded, and some dont want to take the time to use harvesters and would much rather just buy the resource from someone who does. i do some of both.
this obviously makes the costs higher for the end product.
you should play as you like, and be able to enjoy it without having to hear complaints from others that you are price gouging. i just add those people to the ingnore and denyservice list.
then i get an email asking why they cant use my vendors. hmmm, obviously a rhodes scholar.
thus concludes my (much longer than i thought it would be) dissertation on resource/product cost.
--EDIT--
forgot to add in the cost of time for the harv runs, so if you stick with the 10000cr/hr, it takes maybe 15 minutes to make a run to 5 harvs so thats another 2500cr/day, which adds 0.031cpu, making a total of .4cpu.
the 0.5cpu cost is still a valid reference point.
also fixed a few spelling and grammar errors.
i generally charged 3cpu for my architect stuff. definately one of the cheaper merchants on the servers.
why do i charge these prices? because i make a good profit at them.
a lot of architect items do not dependent on the quality of stats, so that makes it cheaper, but not really.
why?
i mine almost every resource i use.
some posts in this thread are from crafters or former crafters, but for those that arent, a harvester math lesson.
(credits per minute + cost of power per minute) / resource per minute = cpu
i found an 85% concentration of ore, very important to the architects.
power cost is based on 75% spot with fusion at pe of 750
1 / 10.5 = 0.095 credits per unit = 0.063 cost per POWER unit (1 / [10.5 x 1.5])
heavy harvester:
(1.5 + .063) / 11.05 = 0.141 cpu
medium harverster:
(1 + .063) / 8.5 = 0.125 cpu
personal harverster
(.5 + .063) / 3.4 = 0.165 cpu
we can see that a medium harv is the cheapest to run, but, you get about 3600 fewer units per day with it on an 85% spot, and .016 cpu isnt really a big deal.
why do resources cost so much?
first, there is the time involved in finding a spot and making the harv runs every few days, or maybe everyday, (i had to when i started, i didnt have the money to dump in a weeks worth or maint).
some people just set up all their harvs in a field and leave them, harvesting whatever has the highest concentration or best stats. i will ignore those for now, i want to make resorces cost as much as possible.
lets say you have 2 accounts and thus 20 lots. at least 2 lots will be used for a house so lets say you have 18 left, thats up to 18 harvs, so you have some on a chem, a mineral, and a gas, say 5 on each.
you would put all 5 of each type together because you want as many resources as possible, so you (usually) have to go three different places to do harv runs.
lets say they are on 3 different planets, just to make it more expensive. endor, dant, and talus.
not the most expensive planets to go to, but its a nice mix of prices.
so you make a run every day, with tickets and bike repairs, it will cost roughly 13k in tickets, and maybe 4k worth of bike repairs, thats a bit high for repairs, but we'll use it anyway.
so thats 17k extra per day.
using our heavy harvesters, you would get 15912 resources per day per harv so 79560 per field of 5 (yes, each having 85% probably wont happen, just play along).
so 17000cr / 79560 resources = .213cpu extra, so our total is now 0.354 cpu not incuding what you think your time is worth to find the resouce in the first place and the time for harv runs.
lets say it takes you 1 hour to find that nice 85% spot, what is your time worth? 10cr/hr, 500cr/hr?
lets use 10000cr/hr.
we know that we get 79560 resources per day, and lets use 8 days for the spawn, so that would be 636480 resources from the whole spawn,
at 10000cr/hr you spent 1 hour finding the resource so we need to add that to the harvest costs
636480u x 0.354cpu = 225313.92cr + 10000cr = 235313.92cr
235313.92cr / 636480u = 0.369cpu
why do resources cost so much?
it doesnt matter if every stat on the ore was 200 or less or everyone was 1000, it still costs the same.
the resource totals and concentrations are all theoretical and based on 0 server down time, which is impossible but the theory is the same, you dont pay maint during server down time, so there is no loss there, but you get fewer resources, so this would make the cost slightly higher.
let us reasonably figure that resources cost less than 0.5cpu in 90% of cases, a fair assesement.
why should we be paying more than 3cpu for anything? as raw resources anyway. thats still 500% profit.
this doesnt apply as well to hunters because of the difference in harvest rates per person and per critter, but it is a similar principle.
the other 'cost' people charge for product is the time and skill required to make it.
time is almost nil, i can craft something in under 1 minute, even taking my time and looking/thinking about which resources are best and what stats i want to increase with experimentation it takes less than 3.
everyone but sw can make factory schems to run as we do other things, thus taking less of our time to make items.
charging for skill is not reasonable, as someone else pointed out, we shouldnt pay for the time/money/resource you used to grind to master, so having 10 experiment points vs 3 is of no value by itself.
as far as i know, there are no attachments with shipwright modifiers but all other crafters have them, so a 12 or 14 point crafter can make a higher quality product, and this is worth more because of the cost in getting those attachments.
using high quality resources with 10 (or more) exp points renders a quality product, which i am willing to pay for, if its a reasonable cost.
if you dont want to 'waste' your time/money as you go up the tree, sell that stuff on the bazaar, or get a vendor.
make some in practice for extra xp, but sell off the better ones you make.
there is always a market for lower quality products for less money. they will sell, maybe not as fast as high quality stuff, but it will sell.
i always sell an item for one price, my cost to make a nice profit. so i sell swoops for 25000 credits, always. 75% or 99%, it still cost me the same to make it, it should cost you the same to buy it. of course the 99% ones are going to sell first, but the others will sell too because it is a reasonable cost.
there is a lot of money on the servers, which is why people can charge what they do for whatever they are selling.
no one should try to tell me what i charge for my services, just as i wont tell you.
i have a smuggler toon that has lost business becuse some thought i charged too much to slice, they tried to tell me what to charge, i said no, its X or nothing. just because your friend charges 1k per slice, doesnt mean i have to, you like their price, go find them.
same with crafters, you dont like the price, find another one.
i dont want to sound like im telling you what to charge for your product, but many times when the cost complaint is raised, and some say it costs a lot to make the items, which doesnt have to be true.
some things cost a lot because resource requirements are high (shipwright, architect), but most are not that high.
some wont/cant have more than one account, me inculded, and some dont want to take the time to use harvesters and would much rather just buy the resource from someone who does. i do some of both.
this obviously makes the costs higher for the end product.
you should play as you like, and be able to enjoy it without having to hear complaints from others that you are price gouging. i just add those people to the ingnore and denyservice list.
then i get an email asking why they cant use my vendors. hmmm, obviously a rhodes scholar.
thus concludes my (much longer than i thought it would be) dissertation on resource/product cost.
--EDIT--
forgot to add in the cost of time for the harv runs, so if you stick with the 10000cr/hr, it takes maybe 15 minutes to make a run to 5 harvs so thats another 2500cr/day, which adds 0.031cpu, making a total of .4cpu.
the 0.5cpu cost is still a valid reference point.
also fixed a few spelling and grammar errors.
Message Edited by Stawei_Idow on 12-31-2004 04:45 PM
Message Edited by Stawei_Idow on 12-31-2004 04:46 PM
Hebeu
Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:14 pm
#43
I dont really have a problem with SW since what one guy sells for 1mill i can get two of it from another one at that same price. My gripe with SW is when they reverse engineer something for you and try to give you a different item back to you. I caught one doing this (I will leave her name blank for now) and she replied that she gave the wrong item back. OK itold her untill the item i got back was 3 lvls down and she ran to the shuttle and jumped out. I had to track her down for two days to get said item back. From that i dont seem to think they can be trusted to much unless the SW is in your PA or a friend you have supported or been playing with for long. Gouging prices seems to be par for the game now a days and I have learned to barter for items or keep looking elswhere since someone will sell it cheaper cuz they need my money more than the uber priced guy does.
Sheesh enough from me now lmao
Electro5
Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:37 am
#44
Yah, mining your own resources will save you a ton of money in the long run, thats for sure. You say Shipwright takes too many resources unless you have alts and a guild? Well then, wait a month or 2 while still mining constantly and build up a stock of resources.
The only gripe I have with Shipwright prices are the people with low quality crap who go out, look at another good shipwright's vendor, and use the prices they are charging for quality parts on their crap. I can understand paying whatever price for a good blaster, but don't try and sell me a lousy piece for the same price just because its the same item. Of course, this isn't exclusive to just Shipwright.
One thing though, that I heard someone post, really annoyed me. Someone posted that if someone is shorting your prices, just buy their stock and sell it yourself at your prices. That is just about the worst thing you can do to another crafter as far as I'm concerned. I have a droid vendor on Bria, and I sell at very reasonable prices. I charge 21k for a 105 harvest rating droid, 15k for an R4 with 110 med, 10 item storage, and chemical crafting, and a bunch of others. I have had mayve 3-4 people who try and buy all the "popular" models off of my vendor and resell them. How do I know? Well, no one needs 4 medical droids, 2 harvester droids, 2 entertainer droids, and 6 storage MSE's, do they? What happens to those people? They are promptly banned from my shop. If I want to sell affordable stuff, thats my choice, and you shouldn't be buying it and then upping the price 200%. I can still make plenty of profit from my droids even at that price (mining your own resources is golden), and I don't care so much about the money as I do about making this a pleasent experience for other people.
You don't want someone undercutting your prices? Just let them go on doing it, chances are you'll get the business from people who don't care to shop around, and he'll get the business of the ones are do shop around because they need to.
Believe it or not, everyone in this game isn't rich. Sure, you CAN make 300k on a duty mission. But some people don't have the time or the skills to do so. Sure, you can make gobs of money getting Krayt tissues and whatnot. But not everyone has the combat skill to do so, or isn't interested in simply looting giant dragons that take 8 years to kill. Some people don't enjoy running endless missions, on the ground or in space, just to make enough money to get buy. You can't assume that your prices are affordable to everyone just because 20% of the players do have millions of credits.
Nothing wrong with shipwright prices if its quality, a ship is an investment and should be treated as such. Just don't assume things.
Page 4 of 4