Pilot Archive
Thread: PVP Damage and Decay
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1st_Viduus
Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:06 pm
#14
TomoRainer wrote:
After a couple more large PVP battles and a fair amount of skirmishes, I've refined my opinion to where I think decay should be removed entirely and damage could probably use another 25% reduction. I'd hope that would be enough to make heavy fighters a more viable choice without turning fights between two skilled light fighter pilots into an endless circle. And POB ships could still use a separate system entirely.
If we were to remove PVP decay, insurance is a good call (the devs love credit sinks, and with the way it's affected travel costs and ramped up income for pilots, JTL could probably use another one), but it would be nice if we could come up with a way to open a revenue stream for shipwrights to replace the business we'd lose from eliminating decay. Even if there's no good way to do that, I'm still in favor of getting rid of PVP decay, but if we could brainstorm a few good ideas, I expect there'd be less resistance from the shipwright community.
Of course I don't have any ideas offhand, but I'm going to give it some thought over the next few days and see if I can come up with a proposal for this.
(first of all, we've yet to see much business from "decay". Our competitor is a free superior product... and DS has already laid it's mark).
That's simple enough.
1. Make a Civilian Pilot tree, with associated ships (very few, and very small and/or limited).
2. Give pilots the right to 5 or even 6 ships in the datapad, with the reward ship NOT counting to that total.
What this accomplishes?
People love to play with ship configurations, and have "one for x, one for y, one MP, one for z, one for foolin around with" et cetera.
That "fooling around with" leads to adjustments in thinking, which in turn leads to adjustments in ship configs... which leads them to the MSW's.
We DON'T want to be cranking out CM's, Missiles, and Paint for a living.
I'm doing shipwright now almost exclusively for myself and the guild, because I don't want to be a glorified factory. Nobody comes to me anymore with "I need a ship that can"... they want "RE This" - "Make me X mass Armor" - "I need CM's"... bah.
Also bring crafted 'on par' with Looted & RE'd.
I don't mean 'equal', or 'better than'. I mean "on par".
A great example is boosters.
I can craft a booster with more speed and acceleration, lower mass... but it doesn't burn as long (10s) and takes longer to recharge (20-50%). These stats are customizeable - someone may not care for the accel, so want it to burn longer... and I can do that.
There's a distinct advantage to a crafted booster - in a specifically chosen role when crafted.
RE'd is superior in every way except mass and energy drain... but I'd rather use my own. It's a choice, and either is viable.
So bring the rest of the crafted stuff in line!
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 02-09-2005 11:14 PM
1st_Viduus
Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:27 pm
#15
That, again, delegates us to the role of "mechanic", plus would drive out of business any msw who doesn't run his own harvs, but instead buys resources.
Coran_Sienar
Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:34 pm
#16
Why do you say that any msw who doesn't run his own harvesters would be driven out of business when chasses take FAR more resources to make? The resource requirements on MKII Spacebombs and MKIV Proton Torps are nothing to sneeze at, either.
1st_Viduus
Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:43 pm
#17
Well a couple of reasons.
First, repairing with xxx resources that cost you 0.2 cpu for 50 items in a day, say, can be done at 1cpu for a healthy profit.
Doing the same and trying to charge 10cpu (because resource vendors still try to charge 6-30 cpu for half-decent materials) in comparison couldn't compete.
I'm already called a thief for charging 8-10 cpu, because I simply can't harvest resources. I stay afloat by being excellent at what I do, and having a select clientelle.
Throw this into the mix:
Get some of those new Resource Mixers, buy enough materials to make ONE factory schem, and make the rest from the worst most disgusting resources you can lay your fingers on..... sell at whatever price you like, you're rich.
Get some of those new Resource Mixers, buy enough materials to make ONE factory schem, and make the rest from the worst most disgusting resources you can lay your fingers on..... sell at whatever price you like, you're rich.
Add the competitive repair business into the mix.... anyone who isn't established is going out of business, and we end up with a few big-name shipwrights and the rest either work for themselves or a dream of a firespray, else they drop it.
wolfmanIII
Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:38 am
#18
Sorry for the question, but what specifically does it do this "Resource Mixer"?
Message Edited by wolfmanIII on 02-11-2005 04:39 AM
TomoRainer
Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:16 am
#19
Well Viduus, I too have my doubts as to how much business we get from decay, but you've seen some of the responses in the shipwright forum when it's suggested that it be removed from PVP. And I have had a couple serious PVPers come to me for new chassis and such (granted, such requests are rare), so I know decay has SOME impact on keeping us viable.
I was thinking of something directly related to PVP or decay, a change in the ballpark of Coran's suggestion, but I love your point about adding another slot or three for ships. It would in no way force pilots to spend more money, but the ones that have a lot of fun messing around with variable ships would definitely throw some sales our way. That combination (fun for pilots, cash for shipwrights, but completely optional) sounds like a great addition.
To switch back to the topic of whether PVP decay should be removed, I'd like to add to Eaca's underappreciated point about armor decay on components. Not only does your ship's total HP drop dramatically with each death, but this affects heavy fighters (which I think it's widely agreed are already at a big disadvantage to light fighters) much more than their smaller counterparts. Those big fat 20-50K components, the level 7-10 stuff it's hard to fit on an Interceptor but for which there's plenty of space on a Krayt, tend to start off with armor ratings high enough that they can make a difference in your PVP survivability. 300-900 armor HP on weapons, shields, engines, etc. adds up. Three or four of them on a heavy fighter and suddenly you're able to soak another shot or two before you're completely dead. That goes a ways toward balancing the scales between fighter classes--but if you've got that Krayt outfitted with nice RE'd stuff you can't just buy off a vendor (and even if you could, crafted stuff, bizarrely, tends to have half the armor HP of looted stuff), you have to watch as your armor advantage slowly decays until it no longer exists and you're left with the option of a) trying to replace parts that are often irreplaceable or b) fighting without one of the edges a heavy fighter needs in order to be viable in PVP. Neither of those is a very great choice and it just goes to further reinforce light fighters as the composite armor of space.
Of course, we'd be helped somewhat if the anti-decay kits could be used on ship components, but for whatever reason that's not an option.
Anyway, some good discussion here. Keep it up.
I was thinking of something directly related to PVP or decay, a change in the ballpark of Coran's suggestion, but I love your point about adding another slot or three for ships. It would in no way force pilots to spend more money, but the ones that have a lot of fun messing around with variable ships would definitely throw some sales our way. That combination (fun for pilots, cash for shipwrights, but completely optional) sounds like a great addition.
To switch back to the topic of whether PVP decay should be removed, I'd like to add to Eaca's underappreciated point about armor decay on components. Not only does your ship's total HP drop dramatically with each death, but this affects heavy fighters (which I think it's widely agreed are already at a big disadvantage to light fighters) much more than their smaller counterparts. Those big fat 20-50K components, the level 7-10 stuff it's hard to fit on an Interceptor but for which there's plenty of space on a Krayt, tend to start off with armor ratings high enough that they can make a difference in your PVP survivability. 300-900 armor HP on weapons, shields, engines, etc. adds up. Three or four of them on a heavy fighter and suddenly you're able to soak another shot or two before you're completely dead. That goes a ways toward balancing the scales between fighter classes--but if you've got that Krayt outfitted with nice RE'd stuff you can't just buy off a vendor (and even if you could, crafted stuff, bizarrely, tends to have half the armor HP of looted stuff), you have to watch as your armor advantage slowly decays until it no longer exists and you're left with the option of a) trying to replace parts that are often irreplaceable or b) fighting without one of the edges a heavy fighter needs in order to be viable in PVP. Neither of those is a very great choice and it just goes to further reinforce light fighters as the composite armor of space.
Of course, we'd be helped somewhat if the anti-decay kits could be used on ship components, but for whatever reason that's not an option.
Anyway, some good discussion here. Keep it up.
Ramona_Garcia
Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:39 am
#20
Well, if my current level of space pvp keeps up I'll be looking at buying a new chassis every one to two weeks, when my squint drops below 700 or so.
Coran_Sienar
Fri Feb 11, 2005 7:05 am
#21
Viduus, perhaps if the repair component schematics were such that they didn't require as many resources so we could get away with charging the same as all the other crafting professions on a cpu basis would make it more attractive an option.
The side benefit to this is that some shipwrights who get burned out on crafting could be the equivalent of "Buff Docs" who simply buy the repair kits and act as mechanics.
I still find it boggling that people will praise my 250 cpu pricing structure for meds while simultaneously blasting me for my 5 cpu pricing structure for armor and munitions... Go figure. 
quadpers0n
Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:36 am
#22
i don't have a problem whatsoever with shipwrights being made mechanics. not a single solitary issue with it. and i am a shipwright. IMO the system the devs created for most other crafting professions is rediculous. who thought it would be a good idea to have this mini-mall one-stop-shopping wal-mart dynamic we have now?
imo aspects of shipwright capture the feel of what a crafting profession should be in SWG dead on. in my shop i'm up to my eyeballs in junk, i don't mass produce ships, i collect junk and RE thing's for people and occasionally craft a needed component or ship. this is star wars, not donald trump tycoon wars. a system where chassis repair is the realm of theshipwright means repeat business. introduce viable decaying consumables like armor, introduce a new class of armor for MP ships, make missles viable, and now shipwrights have renwable business. after that, nix decay on all other components resulting from PVP death. call it a mechanic if you will, it captures the feel of Star Wars.
buying new chassis every week is not fun. period. i don't care if i make well over the 100k a week required to make my own chassis again, it's not fun. and i have shipwright access at my fingertips. i understand not making any money off shipwright may not be fun either, but the onus is on the developers to find a way to enable you do that without hurting the fun value of the game.
that being said, a few thoughts about the original post:
i agree that mass PVP is fun, but i don't really think it needs 25% more reduction. i won't hate it but i think better alternatives are available to get 2-3 hit pvp and notpush the game to be more equipment reliant.i think we desperately need something for MP ships as welland a damage reduction of course isn't it. i don't see any imbalance issue resulting from giving MP ships insane mass/insane HP armor. i don't fly MP ships but i want them to be the challenge that they are supposed to be so bad.
i also agree with the PVP decay sentiment wholeheartedly. the only thing i would like to point out though is that you can be somewhat proficient with sub par equipment, the other night i was PVP'ing very effectively with crap i purchased off the bazaar, RE'd to save space, and even *gasp* a prototype peice or two. hah. enough reactor space to overcharge 3 your stuff and you are pretty much good to go. let's not forget, you shipwrights out there, that once people realize they can do just as well with junk equipment they looted, they will likely outfit a fast turn pvp ship with junk, stop caring about chassis decay, and stop visiting shipwrights altogether, like i have. keep pushing a decay agenda and it may come back to bite you. people naturally want to pvp with their best stuff, but once they find out speed doesnt matter as much as y/p/r and aim they'll stop being so concerned with it. your chassis HP won't protect you from anything in PVP, so why buy any new equipment ever again?
1st_Viduus
Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:44 am
#23
wolfmanIII wrote:
Sorry for the question, but what specifically does it do this "Resource Mixer"?
Message Edited by wolfmanIII on 02-11-2005 04:39 AM
There is one for each resource type: Chemical, Mineral, et cetera.
Basically, if you have one of these, you can take all your little tidbits of different Inert Petrochem, say, throw them into the blender, and presto, out comes one single stack of Generic Chemical, with 200 stats on everything.
What's so great about that?
Well, let's say I want to make some of my guaranteed-One-Shot-Kill 4-in-a-pack SpaceBomb2's.
Instead of spending big bux on a particular 50k stack of steel, and a specific 12.5k stack of radioactive, I can just grab the cheapest, most disgusting material out there, run it through the Blender, drop it in the factory, and run my schematic through.
Same thing, built with Generic.
Granted the blenders are selling for big bux atm, but then, not everyone that gets one paid for it.
If you need one you can probably build one.
quadpers0n
Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:46 am
#24
one more point i forgot to address, imo ship variety would come naturally from introducing high stat armor/shields for MP ships. (200k mass , 10-30k values). light fighters would be able to take these ships out, but honestly with those kinds of shields you are going to want something that carries two or three 4000dmg+ guns. the only ships viable for that would be heavy fighters, thus heavy fighters would have a multipurpose role. light fighters, of course, have the role of taking out the heavy fighters and protecting their own bombers/heavy fighters.
i totally agree there should be purposes and differences between ships and imo that is the best way to accomplish it.
Coran_Sienar
Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:13 am
#25
Quad, you've hit the nail on the head.
Another thing I'd like to see is Shipwright abilities that would be useful on MP Ships. Imagine if a Shipwright could do for a MP ship what a Doc could do for a player character. Imagine specialized engine, shield, capacitor and weapon "tuning packs" that lasted for a short period of time (5 minutes at most so that the Shipwright would be running around like mad, keeping them running) that significantly enhanced the performance of each of those components.
I know that Shipwright is primarily a crafting profession, but such a move would dramatically increase the fun factor of being a Shipwright while making MP ships far more worthwhile in combat. What do you guys think? Am I way out in left field?
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