Pilot Archive
Thread: for those of you wondering the size of the JSF compaired to other ships
Joint_Maker wrote:
That, my friend, is a question that only a deep known of the Force will answer.
2 guns, 90k mass, and better stats than the A-wing. I'll never get tired of saying how much this sucks
You can still make an A-wing capable of killing even good JSF pilots.
Why don't you take a good, hard look at the stats for each of the ships if you don't think they're not balanced. Numbers don't lie.
Can the A-Wing field as much firepower as a JSF? Can it carry as large an engine and remain effective? Leaph is probably one of the best A-Wing pilot in the galaxies. I guarantee his record would improve if he flew a JSF, RGI or B-22.
I used to fly an X-Wing. Now I use the Heavy X. I can still outmaneuver lighter craft (flown badly) because of the fact that I can have a feasible setup with a 40K mass RE'd L10 engine in a Heavy X. The problem is that no matter how heavy or how light your craft is, your defense (i.e., shields) will be nearly identical to everyone else's. Most PvPers will have found some way to shoehorn an RE'd (preferably non-exploited) Level 8 Reward Shield into their fighter.
Should the larger fighters and bombers (including POBs) be tougher? Yeah. But are they? No. So, with that game mechanic being constant, the new, smaller, more maneuverable ships are certainly not balanced.
quadpers0n wrote:
i'm not sure i understand the logic on how it's going to get worse after a WO3 fix. essentially guns of all tiers have comparable energy per shot and reactor drain values. (for arguements sake). if a JSF with a tiny capacitor/reactor suddenly doesn't have enough juice to sustain spraying fire, won't it have to modify it's capacitor to accomodate? won't this force it to lose some of it's other advantages?
conversely, the heavy fighters can equip larger mass (and damage) guns, currently using the same tiny reactor/capacitor combo. they will need to replace their capacitor/reactor as well, but don't they have substantially more leeway in doing so because of more mass? with the end result of still being able to use larger guns?
A good way to look at it, Quad...but incomplete.
How many weapons do these heavy ships carry in comparison to the lighter ones?
I use roughly the same setup for my lighter fighters. Long and short of the story, I currently run EO4 and WO3. If WO3 is fixed, I will not have to change a thing on my setup, and drop to EO3. I don't hold the fire button, so EPS is not a huge concern for me, nor will it be with a fix. Now, consider my second sentence again...the heavy ships mount 4-6 weapons. Not 2-3. That's 2-4 MORE weapons that will have their drain divided by .3 (point three). In short, the heavier ships are going to feel the power crunch much, much more than the lighter ships...this is a mathematical certainty, and cannot be argued.
As it stands, it is currently the opinion that, with a few exceptions, the heavy ships are at a disadvantage to the lighter ships overall. I know that there are some fantastic B-wing/Firespray etc pilots, with fantastic loadouts, but generally speaking, the heavy ships are outclassed. This will become even more pronounced if/when WO3 is fixed. Do the math on your own ships, and you will see that I am right. Don't forget the drains on missle launchers in your WO calculations.
Bottom line: most of us that have decent RE'd equipment will only have to make minor (if any) changes to equipment and tactics...and very few of us will be able to run EO4/WO3 anymore. The heavier ships will pretty much require one of the high generation reactors to maintain their current standard of performance, and will almost certainly have to make more hardware changes than a lighter ship. The math is on my side, and this cannot be argued. While it is true that the heavier ships have more mass to *play with* as you say, that alone is not enough to bridge the gap. Flying a heavier ship, while having more firepower per volley,said firepower willacutally end up beingmore of a liability than an advantage, and the ship is still easier to hit.
Coran - The SR-71 was decomissioned because we have something better, and it's not satellites. Otherwise, why take it out of service? I do love the Blackbird, btw...it is my favorite plane.
You are also correct with your techincal definitions of mass, matter, and density. However, they do not make anything that I said to be incorrect in any way.
That's wrong.
edit: The SR-71 was removed from active duty because of the simple fact that UAVs do it cheaper with less risk.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 09-01-2005 09:17 AM
quadpers0n wrote:
you'd be more capable in a JSF though leaph,in the a-wing you arepenalized 25k mass a gun slot and a split second in reaction timefor your respect of cannon. i guess you could make a case for it being 1.0 speed. but is that a fair trade?
For me ...yes. In my oppinion, the A-wing is much more user friendly flight wise. It is easier to see where it's sweet spots for turning are, the profile is still small and it looks cooler than a JSF. I know for a fact that sme JSF will be faster than my A-wing but 99.9% of the time, they're using crafted engines and when it comes to a turning fight cannot compete. Otherwise they either have a QID which is better than mine which is going to be rare speed wise (I use a 105.9 re'd) or some pre-nerf Freelance reward engine. Turning fight wise, the scariest thing anyone could do is a. Be Harotak and that doesn't count because he flies a TIE Advanced or b. be using a lvl 10 engine with far superior r,p,y rates. Amongst lvl 8 engines, I've found even those with a few points r,p,y wise greater or lesser than mine doesn't seem to make 'too' much of a difference. If you're flying in a combination of aggressive and evasive manouvers, you're never turning in one direction for long enough to mke that r,p,y totally count too.
In addition, personally I think the superior r,p,y acceleration of the JSF is overkill. The best example of anyone using it was Joken flying evasively and I couldn't line up a shot..but the thing is, while he was darting everywhere, there was no chance in hell of him getting a shot off at me either and in the end to line up a shot, he had to smooth out his actions etc. Personally, handlign wise in my book, you'll never beat the way a Squint handles with a lvl 8/10 engine and as it has the same speed mod as an A-wing it really is somthing to behold (hence my arguement for making the RG TIE hitbox normal because it really doesn't need it that small).
Now I will admit. I'm not completely blind. The JSF has two gun mounts which you can make rapid fire if you have different refire times on your blasters and I envy that. It is also possible with two gunmounts to get higher max damage if both shots connect and if you're using the right guns than a single blaster on a one mount starship. I.E Take the TIE Advanced. A lvl 5 and lvl 6 re'd gun together would put out just over 4k damage and thats considering average ones and furtherly if they had good mass it'd be somewhere around 16k together. With my single gun mount, I am wasting 22k mass for a 3.8k damage lvl 8 gun which for the lvl is good mass, but practicality wise isn't the best option. In addition to better guns, the JSF has the potential for a better engine, shield and armour and is well a better ship all round, but the fact is, knowing the ship you fly and employing what your ship is capable in battle practically is also just as an important factor.
I get away withusing an A-wing because I know what the thing is capable of and what it isnt. Not to sound arrogant or anything, but the proof is in the pudding, you can ask a lot of respected pilots about that. A-wings and other 'under par' ships can work if you spend time on them and practice with them. get to know their strengths, their weaknesses, when to attack, when to retreat etc.
As for me being more capable in a JSF....I don't know if you were using 'you' as directed to me or generically but I'll address it anyway. I really don't think I'd fly half as well in one. The reason I am as successfula s I am in the A-wing is because in a fight I am very much aware that any hit anyone scores on me is probably going to put me out of the fight. In a GSF which I've had a go at flying, I don't like the phallic nature of its amazing handling because finding a sweet spot for manouvering with it is..well it handles -too- well. I need limits to help me establish how to use smthing. When I'm offered somthign which is good at -everything- I become complacent. I would be willing to bet money that I'd die more if I used a JSF rather than an A-wing.
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Silver, you're wrong again. Imbalance does not imply a constant outcome. Ever see a small guy win a fight against a bigger? Doesn't the bigger guy have an edge? That advantage in weight, strength, reach doesn't guarantee a victory, but it sure does help. Why do you think any organized "fighting" sport always sorts out its competitors based upon weight classes?
Why don't you take a good, hard look at the stats for each of the ships if you don't think they're not balanced. Numbers don't lie.
Can the A-Wing field as much firepower as a JSF? Can it carry as large an engine and remain effective? Leaph is probably one of the best A-Wing pilot in the galaxies. I guarantee his record would improve if he flew a JSF, RGI or B-22.
I used to fly an X-Wing. Now I use the Heavy X. I can still outmaneuver lighter craft (flown badly) because of the fact that I can have a feasible setup with a 40K mass RE'd L10 engine in a Heavy X. The problem is that no matter how heavy or how light your craft is, your defense (i.e., shields) will be nearly identical to everyone else's. Most PvPers will have found some way to shoehorn an RE'd (preferably non-exploited) Level 8 Reward Shield into their fighter.
Should the larger fighters and bombers (including POBs) be tougher? Yeah. But are they? No. So, with that game mechanic being constant, the new, smaller, more maneuverable ships are certainly not balanced.
You're right, Coran...but here's the problem. The way people speak of the imbalance heavily implies that they outclass the JTL ships. They do, but not as much as what it is made out to be. That is my point. If they were truly unbalanced to the degree that has been stated...Leaph would have no chance, regardless of anything in question. He would have no chance.
But this is not the case. I like your example of the fighters and weight class. Actually, when it comes down to a true fight, the winner is probably going to be determined by the one that is willing to do what the other will not to survive. If we are talking about 2 people that are of age (no man vs child in respect to size), the one that is more willing to do whatever it takes to win, is probably going to win...even if the size difference is somewhat substantial. Sorry, but your example just has too many variables to be effectivelyused.
Bottom line: I am not trying to say that the ROTW ships are balanced, because they are a bit overpowered.
What I am saying, is that *all* of the light fighters are overpowered...period. Not just the ROTW ships, but all of them. And, as you said, the POB/heavy fighters are not tough enough.
One question I have with regard to the screenies is perspective. In the A-Wing screenie, the A-Wing is obviously closer to the "camera" than the JSF is. Is that the same case with the GSF?
In regard to the JSF, whoever coined the "Space Composite" nickname hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure what SOE was thinking with that one. I'd have expected them to learn their lesson with the composite clones. Silver had mentioned Janu as someone who's good against a JSF without using one. Back-in-the-day, he did the same thing with ground PvP. He and his crew never fought in Composite when PvPing and did very well. And on our side, we fought in ST armor and usually did well, too. There will always be folks who care more about immersion in the SW era we are playing in than pwning everyone. One easy (and by all evidences, somewhat effective) way of dealing with this is to ban RGIs, JSFs, and GSFs from preorganized massive PvP events. Another is to campaign for more RP in our guilds when doing space.
I've got a JSF and I admittedly love it. It's so unlike my TIEs in design and handling that I find it to be a fun little ship. It has moveable parts, it's paintable, the blaster bolts come from different parts of the ship, etc. I use it for grinding xp, mining, or 'civillian' combat activities. But when my crew dons their black jumpsuits, it's only TIEs for me (no, I don't yet have the RGI). There's something more rewarding about flying around as a distinctly Imperial squadron.
On the one hand, I don't have a problem with the Imperial pre-req for obtaining the JSF. For so long the A-wing had dominated that I don't mind the Imperials getting a little love. On the other hand, I have a lot more respect for a pilot who hones his or her skills in GCW-era ships rather than the clone ones. I find it a bit funny how I've yet to see an Imperial Pilot who brags about his PvP skills as a JSF killer who doesn't use one. I love the Imperial ships, but perhaps they are inherently inferior to the likes of an A-Wing, B-Wing, etc.
Then again, I was only a Rebel Pilot in beta, though, so I really don't know. Also, I'll be the first to say that my skills as a pilot are pretty bad.
LeaphChausew wrote:
quadpers0n wrote:
you'd be more capable in a JSF though leaph,in the a-wing you arepenalized 25k mass a gun slot and a split second in reaction timefor your respect of cannon. i guess you could make a case for it being 1.0 speed. but is that a fair trade?
For me ...yes. In my oppinion, the A-wing is much more user friendly flight wise. It is easier to see where it's sweet spots for turning are, the profile is still small and it looks cooler than a JSF. I know for a fact that sme JSF will be faster than my A-wing but 99.9% of the time, they're using crafted engines and when it comes to a turning fight cannot compete. Otherwise they either have a QID which is better than mine which is going to be rare speed wise (I use a 105.9 re'd) or some pre-nerf Freelance reward engine. Turning fight wise, the scariest thing anyone could do is a. Be Harotak and that doesn't count because he flies a TIE Advanced or b. be using a lvl 10 engine with far superior r,p,y rates. Amongst lvl 8 engines, I've found even those with a few points r,p,y wise greater or lesser than mine doesn't seem to make 'too' much of a difference. If you're flying in a combination of aggressive and evasive manouvers, you're never turning in one direction for long enough to mke that r,p,y totally count too.In addition, personally I think the superior r,p,y acceleration of the JSF is overkill. The best example of anyone using it was Joken flying evasively and I couldn't line up a shot..but the thing is, while he was darting everywhere, there was no chance in hell of him getting a shot off at me either and in the end to line up a shot, he had to smooth out his actions etc. Personally, handlign wise in my book, you'll never beat the way a Squint handles with a lvl 8/10 engine and as it has the same speed mod as an A-wing it really is somthing to behold (hence my arguement for making the RG TIE hitbox normal because it really doesn't need it that small).
Now I will admit. I'm not completely blind. The JSF has two gun mounts which you can make rapid fire if you have different refire times on your blasters and I envy that. It is also possible with two gunmounts to get higher max damage if both shots connect and if you're using the right guns than a single blaster on a one mount starship. I.E Take the TIE Advanced. A lvl 5 and lvl 6 re'd gun together would put out just over 4k damage and thats considering average ones and furtherly if they had good mass it'd be somewhere around 16k together. With my single gun mount, I am wasting 22k mass for a 3.8k damage lvl 8 gun which for the lvl is good mass, but practicality wise isn't the best option. In addition to better guns, the JSF has the potential for a better engine, shield and armour and is well a better ship all round, but the fact is, knowing the ship you fly and employing what your ship is capable in battle practically is also just as an important factor.
I get away withusing an A-wing because I know what the thing is capable of and what it isnt. Not to sound arrogant or anything, but the proof is in the pudding, you can ask a lot of respected pilots about that. A-wings and other 'under par' ships can work if you spend time on them and practice with them. get to know their strengths, their weaknesses, when to attack, when to retreat etc.
As for me being more capable in a JSF....I don't know if you were using 'you' as directed to me or generically but I'll address it anyway. I really don't think I'd fly half as well in one. The reason I am as successfula s I am in the A-wing is because in a fight I am very much aware that any hit anyone scores on me is probably going to put me out of the fight. In a GSF which I've had a go at flying, I don't like the phallic nature of its amazing handling because finding a sweet spot for manouvering with it is..well it handles -too- well. I need limits to help me establish how to use smthing. When I'm offered somthign which is good at -everything- I become complacent. I would be willing to bet money that I'd die more if I used a JSF rather than an A-wing.
that's a fair enough answer.
TheDarkness4u wrote:
JSF vs A-wing
JSF vs Grevious
Eh, I'll have to ask a guildmate for the pic of his JSF sitting on top my alt's Krayt. Almost looks like it was designed to piggy-back.